Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

keane2097 · 01-11-2011 4:40pm

Test != Friendly

irishbucsfan · 01-11-2011 4:57pm

Hagz wrote: »

You don't make a squad with that philosophy in my opinion.
Instead you make a 15-19 man squad that you rely on, instead of having a solid 30+ players.

Look at the Leinster team. There's back-up in almost every position. Obviously thats in part to do with $, but it's also because in games that you can afford to, you give guys opportunities. If you can't afford to do it in a friendly test series, when can you?

Even looking at the bench for the Ireland team during the WC.
Cronin, Court, Ryan, Leamy, Murray, ROG, Trimble.
I would only have confidence in 2/3 of those players. That shouldn't be the case IMO.

We have never beaten the All Blacks. That hangs over the heads of these players. If we send out a weakened team for the "sake of youth" against them this summer we will just lose again. WeCAN beat them with our strongest team, however. I don't want to be faced with a knockout game against New Zealand in England 2015 and have the players hear all week about how they can't beat the Kiwis. Beating them now at the end of a world cup cycle is the best time possible, and there are players in our squad who deserve the opportunity to do it.

I'm all for getting youth into the team, but not against the All Blacks. Against the Maoris, against Australia, against any other team in the world, but not the All Blacks the year after they've won a world cup. Against Italy in February or against someone in the AIs is the time to be trying out youth. In between that we've got another chance to achieve something we've never done before.

Playing a player like Cronin who can't even scrummage at ML level against Mealamu/Hore is just flat out stupid, he has nothing to gain from that apart from a hiding. Same with Hagan (to a far lesser extent, I hope he can earn the spot before then through working with Smal). Also, Stephen Ferris is 26 years old and one of the best in the world, dropping him for youth (of a far lower standard currently) is pure madness when we should be building a team around that young outstanding back row.

My bench, btw, would be

Cronin/Sherry (hopefully one of them will show international quality at some point this year)
Court (we need to develop a dual-sided prop such as McGrath/Fitzgerald though)
Tuohy
Ryan
Murray
Madigan
Fitzgerald/Spence (whoevers not starting)

Hagz · 01-11-2011 5:47pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Also, Stephen Ferris is 26 years old and one of the best in the world, dropping him for youth (of a far lower standard currently) is pure madness when we should be building a team around that young outstanding back row.

I never said to drop Stephen Ferris...

Yes he was in the team I said I'd prefer not to see, but I don't think we should drop Ferris. In the team I said i would like to see for one of the tests, I put Ryan there, which meant I had to drop Ferris or O'Brien. If I had wrote Ferris you would have told me that dropping O'Brien is madness. No matter what I wrote in that situation someone would bite me for it. Unless I wrote Ferris at 6 and O'Brien at 7, but that would take away from my point. I did not say we should drop Ferris.

In regards to your point about beating the All Blacks, well I don't see eye to eye with you. Of Course we need to beat the All Blacks to get the monkey of our backs, but I see the way to doing that as building a squad that's capable of doing that, which at the moment, to be honest we don't have.

If we sent our best XV to play the All Blacks in 10 tests, we would lose 10 tests, that's the truth of the matter.

In my opinion we should be building a squad. Once you have a squad you're team improves because the competitiveness within the squad drives everyone forward, you have a bench that is there to be used and not there for emergencies, and lastly you have dimensions to your game.
At the moment, there are players within the Irish squad who cannot lose their place regardless of the standard they are playing, the bench is cover and not influential and the only variation we have is the ability to swap our outside-halves. To me that's not enough. So we should add depth to out front-row, which can only be done by trial and error, we need to find another back-rower to provide impact from the bench - which Leamy does not do sufficiently, we need two solid scrum halves, we need a reliable back up 10 for Sexton, we need a better inside centre etc.

All these things that can be done in time, but why procrastinate? Because you want to beat the All Blacks? Fair enough if that's your view, I'm not on board with it though.

Podge_irl · 02-11-2011 12:52am

Hagz wrote: »

It's not silly to disregard a player like O'Callaghan, if the player behind him, whether it be Tuohy or Ryan etc has potential.

It's not silly to confine ROG to the bench when you consider he won't be around in a year or 2

These are two examples I would have no problem with. But ROG will be confined to the bench cause Sexton is better and DOC should be dropped for Touhy because Touhy would likely bring more to the team. Their examples of quite likely making the team stronger.

Dropping Best or Ross for the tour would be silly though as they are far and away the best players in their position. It's up to the others to force their way into contention - which they very much haven't done yet.

irishbucsfan · 02-11-2011 1:00am

Podge_irl wrote: »

These are two examples I would have no problem with. But ROG will be confined to the bench cause Sexton is better and DOC should be dropped for Touhy because Touhy would likely bring more to the team. Their examples of quite likely making the team stronger.

Dropping Best or Ross for the tour would be silly though as they are far and away the best players in their position. It's up to the others to force their way into contention - which they very much haven't done yet.

Pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

Is Ryan better than O'Callaghan? I don't think so. Is Tuohy better? Very possibly. I would have no problem with him starting.

Is Sexton better than ROG? Absolutely, which is why I said I'd start him.

Is Hagan better than Ross or Cronin better than Best? Not by any stretch of the imagination, and sending them out to get thrashed in the biggest game of their careers will not help them at all.

Hagz · 02-11-2011 1:06am

Podge_irl wrote: »

These are two examples I would have no problem with. But ROG will be confined to the bench cause Sexton is better and DOC should be dropped for Touhy because Touhy would likely bring more to the team. Their examples of quite likely making the team stronger.

Dropping Best or Ross for the tour would be silly though as they are far and away the best players in their position. It's up to the others to force their way into contention - which they very much haven't done yet.

Why do you have to drop them?? Is there no such thing as rotation. There are 3 tests. I don't see the problem in rotation. Someone like Hagan may not have forced themselves ahead of Ross by the tour, but I still see the benefit in giving him a start and game-time.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 02-11-2011 1:15am

I'd like to see strongest teams played for two summer tests something like, Healy Best Ross POC Tuohy Ferris SOB Heaslip Redden Sexton Trimble/Earls Fitz/McF/Spence BOD Bowe Kearney
Then an experimental test where you bring in a young side say Healy Shery/Cronin Hagan Tuohy Toner SOB Ryan Heaslip Murray Sexton Trimble/Earls McF Spence Gilroy Jones

Use a lot of the experimental team in the match against the Maoris too except more non established players

Podge_irl · 02-11-2011 1:55am

Hagz wrote: »

Why do you have to drop them?? Is there no such thing as rotation. There are 3 tests. I don't see the problem in rotation. Someone like Hagan may not have forced themselves ahead of Ross by the tour, but I still see the benefit in giving him a start and game-time.

3 tests will almost certainly require rotation. You very much seemed to be implying that some players should be left at home and not really start though, which is where I disagree.

Even with the likes of Hagan. He hasn't shown himself capable of playing the full 80 at Pro12 level this season - his fitness seems to be an issue. He's probably still the second best TH available to us so he'll go but I don't see the point in throwing him in unless he's shown himself to be ready.

I'm not of the opinion that playing youngsters in one or two internationals magically makes them better players or makes them "experienced" enough for international rugby. They need to be slowly brought into the team and given a consistent run of games. And they should only get that when they've shown their ready for it and are pushing for a place. That's been happening too slowly at times over the last decade sure, but I don't think going down the England or France route is the right option either.

And ultimately, these tests are going to be seen as an opportunity to beat NZ. And a good opportunity at that. I entirely agree with that and would be sending our best team down there to try and get a result.

pickarooney · 09-11-2011 11:14am

I hope Toner, Spence and McLaughlin get a run out together at some stage just so we can field Devin, Nevin and Kevin.

conf101 · 09-11-2011 12:04pm

We've a match against the Barbarians before we head to NZ so that might be a better opportunity for a bit of experimentation.

durkadurka · 09-11-2011 12:04pm

pickarooney wrote: »

I hope Toner, Spence and McLaughlin get a run out together at some stage just so we can field Devin, Nevin and Kevin.

Like that time the England soccer team had a midfield of Le Tissier, David Platt, David Batty and Paul Gasgoigne.

It was Matty, Platty, Batty and Fatty

CatFromHue · 09-11-2011 12:15pm

The three test series against NZ in June has been confirmed with the games in Auckland, Christchurch, and Hamilton. There is also a friendly against the Barbarians being lined up for before we leave.

I'm surprised there isn't a mid week game against the Maori or a Supex XV team.

I'm also surprised about the Barbarian game especially with what happened the last time we played. I'd have no interest in paying to see that game anyway.

.ak · 09-11-2011 1:47pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

.

I'm also surprised about the Barbarian game especially with what happened the last time we played. I'd have no interest in paying to see that game anyway.

What happened last time? I missed the game was over-seas...

CatFromHue · 09-11-2011 1:56pm

.ak wrote: »

What happened last time? I missed the game was over-seas...

To the best of my knowledge there were guys playing for Ireland in that game that weren't in the touring party. They then got added to the touring party as fellas got injured.

Also the Baa Baas came to win, not play Baa Baa rugby. They got booed by the crowd on 3 or so occasions for taking kicks at goal as opposed to running the ball.

jacothelad · 09-11-2011 2:18pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

To the best of my knowledge there were guys playing for Ireland in that game that weren't in the touring party. They then got added to the touring party as fellas got injured.

Also the Baa Baas came to win, not play Baa Baa rugby. They got booed by the crowd on 3 or so occasions for taking kicks at goal as opposed to running the ball.

Was that the game in which the prop Visagie the Saracens and S.A. playerb thought that trying to punch out Neil Best was a good idea? While lots of others might agree, Best sent him to cloud cuckoo land for his trouble.

CatFromHue · 09-11-2011 2:30pm

jacothelad wrote: »

Was that the game in which the prop Visagie the Saracens and S.A. playerb thought that trying to punch out Neil Best was a good idea? While lots of others might agree, Best sent him to cloud cuckoo land for his trouble.

I think that was the time before when we played them in England.

jacothelad · 09-11-2011 6:31pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

I think that was the time before when we played them in England.

yes, that was the one. Played in Gloucester I think.

CatFromHue · 13-11-2011 3:59pm

Midweek games haven't been ruled out of Ireland's tour to NZ in June. They haven't been ruled in either!

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/5938912/Europe-test-a-prospect-for-busy-All-Blacks

Less common have been midweek tour matches in New Zealand, but Tew said the door remained open for Ireland to visit the provinces.

"It's something we are still discussing with the Irish Rugby Union. They wanted to wait till after the Rugby World Cup to assess their planning for 2012, so that work is still ongoing. It's possible, but I can't confirm either way," he said.

"We have offered [midweek games] and are ready to go on a discussion on how that might look, but it's up to them to agree they want to bring a bigger squad and play midweek."

13-11-2011 4:15pm

midweek games would be great. Could bring a proper touring party and give some experiments some decent gametime.

JustinDee · 13-11-2011 4:22pm

CatFromHue wrote: »

"We have offered [midweek games] and are ready to go on a discussion on how that might look, but it's up to them to agree they want to bring a bigger squad and play midweek."

Thought NZ rugby was broke according to Tew? Now willing to splash out on extended squads to tour?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 13-11-2011 4:28pm

JustinDee wrote: »

Thought NZ rugby was broke according to Tew? Now willing to splash out on extended squads to tour?

we'd be paying for the extended squad to tour NZ while the NZRU (or their constituent unions) would get ticket revenue from the mid week games.

What I'd kind of like to see next Summer is a Wolfhounds tour of the Pacific Islands playing games against Fiji Samoa and Tonga. I don't have a clue if it is feasible but would be nice.

thomond2006 · 13-11-2011 6:46pm

Mike McCarthy should be in the reckoning come February. He's playing well every week for Connacht.

irishbucsfan · 13-11-2011 7:54pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Mike McCarthy should be in the reckoning come February. He's playing well every week for Connacht.

Over who though?

POC? DOC? Ryan? Tuohy? Toner? Tough choice.

Cpt_Blackbeard · 13-11-2011 8:06pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Over who though?

POC? DOC? Ryan? Tuohy? Toner? Tough choice.

I doubt Toner will even make the squad. You'd expect the locks in the squad to be POC, DOC, Ryan and Tuohy. I doubt Toner or McCarthy will even be involved.

irishbucsfan · 13-11-2011 8:09pm

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

I doubt Toner will even make the squad. You'd expect the locks in the squad to be POC, DOC, Ryan and Tuohy. I doubt Toner or McCarthy will even be involved.

Toner has been excellent this season. Really don't see why he shouldn't be considered at least. Fair enough if he doesn't make it though.

thomond2006 · 13-11-2011 8:11pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Over who though?

POC? DOC? Ryan? Tuohy? Toner? Tough choice.

When you put it like that, yeah that's tough.

Teferi · 13-11-2011 9:03pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Toner has been excellent this season. Really don't see why he shouldn't be considered at least. Fair enough if he doesn't make it though.

Yeah Toner has upped his game big time this season. It might be a while before we see him in the squad though.

danthefan · 13-11-2011 9:10pm

Imo Toner won't cut it as an international. Don't think he's physical enough really. Would love to be proven wrong.

13-11-2011 9:19pm

danthefan wrote: »

Imo Toner won't cut it as an international. Don't think he's physical enough really. Would love to be proven wrong.

needs someone to shoot his dog or something. Needs to learn to hate.

totallegend · 13-11-2011 9:31pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Over who though?

POC? DOC? Ryan? Tuohy? Toner? Tough choice.

If DOC doesn't get his Munster place back, that might open up a spot in the Ireland squad. I'd be well in favour of giving McCarthy a run, but in Tuohy and Toner, you have two younger guys (McCarthy is 30) playing with better teams; that shouldn't matter but it's easier to look the part when you're part of a dominant pack. McCarthy will have to play out of his skin to get noticed, and Kidney didn't really show any interest in him in the RWC warm-ups. All in all, I'd say we'll see him for the Wolfhounds but no more, barring injuries.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

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