Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

bm1993 · 08-09-2011 10:55pm

vinny chase wrote: »

That's like asking who do you prefer more, DOC or Mike Ross? Apples and oranges.

Not really. If Ferris played at 4 we could put Jennings at 7 and leave DOC out. I think Jennings should play against the Aussies and Boks (if we play them) because Pocock and Broussow have to be countered if we are to have any chance

Hagz · 08-09-2011 11:00pm

bm1993 wrote: »

Not really. If Ferris played at 4 we could put Jennings at 7 and leave DOC out. I think Jennings should play against the Aussies and Boks (if we play them) because Pocock and Broussow have to be countered if we are to have any chance

It's not as ludicrous an idea as people on here would have you believe, but it is still not worth it. He is so effective at 6 that I would be hesitant to move him from there, and his knee is too vulnerable to be placing him in a position like lock.

But like I said, it's not as ludicrous as people are making it out to be. After all, many want McLaughlin to make the shift to lock for Leinster and he's the same height as Ferris. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it's not a ludicrous opinion.

EDIT: This comment is not in relation to the comment I quoted, It's in relation to your point about Ferris. I don't think we need Jennings personally. Although I do rate him highly, I'm happy with a Fez/SOB/Heaslip combination.

vinny chase · 08-09-2011 11:02pm

Hagz wrote: »

It's not as ludicrous an idea as people on here would have you believe, but it is still not worth it. He is so effective at 6 that I would be hesitant to move him from there, and his knee is too vulnerable to be placing him in a position like lock.

But like I said, it's not as ludicrous as people are making it out to be. After all, many want McLaughlin to make the shift to lock for Leinster and he's the same height as Ferris. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it's not a ludicrous opinion.

I don't think people are saying the idea of playing Stephen Ferris at lock is a ludicrous idea.

I think people are saying deciding to pick him there against the Aussies at this point would be a ludicrous idea, given the fact that he has no real experience in the position.

Hagz · 08-09-2011 11:04pm

vinny chase wrote: »

I don't think people are saying the idea of playing Stephen Ferris at lock is a ludicrous idea.

I think people are saying deciding to pick him there against the Aussies at this point would be a ludicrous idea, given the fact that he has no real experience in the position.

Oh shiii

I didn't know he was talking about the Aussie game. That's ret**ded.

durkadurka · 08-09-2011 11:05pm

We have a real second row problem coming up in a year or two so it's worth seeing if we could convert a backrow where we have a surplus.

That said, the world cup is not the place for something that could be a disaster.
Why not try out KvM now for Leinster, particularly while Sykes is injured?

ironingbored · 08-09-2011 11:16pm

MaryKing wrote: »

SOB did not win player of the 6Ns

I've searched through my posts Mary but can't for the life of me find where I said SOB was player of the 6N

MaryKing wrote: »

Masi did (Fabio Semenzato was 2nd, with SOB & Toby Flood joint 3rd). This is international level.

Masi is a good solid player, but please do not compare him or (:rolleyes:) Semezato with SOB.

ironingbored · 08-09-2011 11:26pm

MaryKing wrote: »

Anthony Foley was voted the Heineken Cup Player of the Decade in a poll conducted on the ERC website selected as the best No. 8 over the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup - this was ahead of Laurence Dallaglio who won 2 Heineken Cups, a world cup and was finalist in a 2nd world cup! I don't think anyone thought that Anthony Foley was undroppable at any stage of his career either for club or country.

FYP

Axel was a fantastic player btw.

bm1993 · 08-09-2011 11:31pm

I wouldn't try it against Australia but maybe against the USA or Russia. Ffs it's not like we're putting him at 13. If Donncha Ryan can play 4 and 6 then i think Ferris could.

And to those of you who recoil in horror at the thought of Ferris at 4 how do you propose putting Ferris and SOB in the same team.

And please don't say Ferris 6 SOB 7

durkadurka · 08-09-2011 11:32pm

That's what's gonna happen

Hagz · 08-09-2011 11:34pm

bm1993 wrote: »

And please don't say Ferris 6 SOB 7

...That's the only option. Either that or you put one of them on the bench.

irishbucsfan · 08-09-2011 11:39pm

bm1993 wrote: »

I wouldn't try it against Australia but maybe against the USA or Russia. Ffs it's not like we're putting him at 13. If Donncha Ryan can play 4 and 6 then i think Ferris could.

And to those of you who recoil in horror at the thought of Ferris at 4 how do you propose putting Ferris and SOB in the same team.

And please don't say Ferris 6 SOB 7

Have you ever played in the row? Playing a player there out of position will have a negative impact on both our scrum and lineout.

bm1993 · 08-09-2011 11:45pm

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Have you ever played in the row? Playing a player there out of position will have a negative impact on both our scrum and lineout.

Maybe so I suppose I can't say really. I just think SOB at 7 is a bad idea.

vinny chase · 08-09-2011 11:56pm

bm1993 wrote: »

Maybe so I suppose I can't say really. I just think SOB at 7 is a bad idea.

For what it's worth, I agree with you on the latter; I don't like seeing O'Brien at seven either.

I played scrum half at a decent level as a school boy, and the higher the level, the more structure was imposed on the forwards in terms of where they are in play, the sort of pods they operate in, and who is meant to hit which ruck, who is meant to support which attack etc.

I take on board what some people said on some of the other threads about the seven position changing slightly in world rugby now, but every time I see O'Brien at seven, and watch him appear to be less than his best I get the feeling that it's because of structures like this. As the openside he has to focus so much on certain pre-defined roles that he can't do his best work.

bm1993 · 09-09-2011 12:19am

vinny chase wrote: »

For what it's worth, I agree with you on the latter; I don't like seeing O'Brien at seven either.

I played scrum half at a decent level as a school boy, and the higher the level, the more structure was imposed on the forwards in terms of where they are in play, the sort of pods they operate in, and who is meant to hit which ruck, who is meant to support which attack etc.

I take on board what some people said on some of the other threads about the seven position changing slightly in world rugby now, but every time I see O'Brien at seven, and watch him appear to be less than his best I get the feeling that it's because of structures like this. As the openside he has to focus so much on certain pre-defined roles that he can't do his best work.

Exactly.

I have played rugby (outhalf) not at a great level but I know what I'm on about.

I think that SOB's ball carrying is our most potent weapon and playing him at 7 severly diminishes that weapon. So I think we should try our best to keep him at 6.

gally74 · 09-09-2011 12:26am

Murray , Flannery to start

irishbucsfan · 09-09-2011 12:28am

bm1993 wrote: »

Exactly.

I have played rugby (outhalf) not at a great level but I know what I'm on about.

I think that SOB's ball carrying is our most potent weapon and playing him at 7 severly diminishes that weapon. So I think we should try our best to keep him at 6.

That is true, but Stephen Ferris on form is among the best blindside flankers on the planet. Look at his performances last November, he was superb.

Ferris must start, and he is arguably the more natural blindside. And so the management are left with no option but to play O'Brien at 7, where he has played well in the past at club level, which is better than nothing.

mystic86 · 09-09-2011 12:30am

i hear the team is to be announced in about half an hour..is that right?

anywhere showing live stream of conference or anywhere we can follow to get the news as it breaks??

profitius · 09-09-2011 12:32am

Maybe they can switch positions during the match? I'd prefer to see Ferris at 7. He would be capable of playing there and let SOB concentrate on carrying the ball because we're lacking ball carriers.

mystic86 · 09-09-2011 12:43am

mystic86 wrote: »

i hear the team is to be announced in about half an hour..is that right?

anywhere showing live stream of conference or anywhere we can follow to get the news as it breaks??

nope, apparently its at 2.15am, feck that time for bed

MaryKing · 09-09-2011 1:06am

David900 wrote: »

Am I missing something here? You're trying to argue that SOBs award for best European player of the year does not necessarily mean he is international standard, but to make this point you highlight he is joint third best player in this years 6Ns....

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I didn't think he is international standard.

My point is that he was judged to be European Player of the Year in a competition that is regarded to be of a lower standard than international rugby and he was not selected as Player of the 6Ns, although he played in it.

Stephen Ferris missed most of this competition due to injury and less than a year ago, Stephen Ferris, when fit, was selected ahead of Sean O'Brien in the autumn internationals.

Anyway, its irrelevant now. Hopefully he has recovered from his injury and is fit to play against the USA.

MaryKing · 09-09-2011 1:25am

ironingbored wrote: »

FYP

Axel was a fantastic player btw.

The selection panel for the first European Awards were Ian McGeechan, Lawrence Dallaglio, Ieuan Evans, Fabien Galthié, Donal Lenihan, Michael Lynagh, Stuart Barnes, Stephen Jones and Jacques Verdier.

Ronan O'Gara got the overall award the previous year and he was dropped internationally.

And I agree - Axel was a great player. David Wallace made that team as well as Rocky Elsom in the backrow.

vinny chase · 09-09-2011 1:29am

MaryKing wrote: »

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I didn't think he is international standard.

My point is that he was judged to be European Player of the Year in a competition that is regarded to be of a lower standard than international rugby and he was not selected as Player of the 6Ns, although he played in it.

Stephen Ferris missed most of this competition due to injury and less than a year ago, Stephen Ferris, when fit, was selected ahead of Sean O'Brien in the autumn internationals.

Anyway, its irrelevant now. Hopefully he has recovered from his injury and is fit to play against the USA.

I still don't, and I'd say I'm not alone here, understand exactly what point it is you are trying to make here about Sean O'Brien?

Stop talking about man of the match awards and other awards for a while, and just state, what do you think Ireland's strongest back row is? What way would you pick it, and what way would you pick the bench?

For me, if everyone is fit, I'd have O'Brien @ 6, Wally @ 7 and Heaslip at 8, with Ferris on the bench.

bamboozle · 09-09-2011 9:03am

MaryKing wrote: »

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I didn't think he is international standard.

My point is that he was judged to be European Player of the Year in a competition that is regarded to be of a lower standard than international rugby and he was not selected as Player of the 6Ns, although he played in it.

Stephen Ferris missed most of this competition due to injury and less than a year ago, Stephen Ferris, when fit, was selected ahead of Sean O'Brien in the autumn internationals.

Anyway, its irrelevant now. Hopefully he has recovered from his injury and is fit to play against the USA.

Mary, many would argue that the starndard of the HC is far greater than the standard of international rugby, especially at the later stages.

MaryKing · 09-09-2011 10:34am

bamboozle wrote: »

Mary, many would argue that the starndard of the HC is far greater than the standard of international rugby, especially at the later stages.

The Heineken Cup final is up there in intensity with internationals and I would have thought some of the games would be even more intense than some internationals (Leinster v Clermont in the RDS for example).

The point i'm making is that winning a European Player of the Year award with one team in a different competition isn't a compelling reason that someone should automatically picked in a different competition with different team mates with different skills.

In 2006 Anthony Foley* was the Heineken Cup winning Captain playing at No. 8 and Denis Leamy was No. 6 for Munster. Denis Leamy was Ireland's No. 8 and Anthony Foley wasn't in the Ireland squad.

*Later selected as the best No. 8 in the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup competition.

vinny chase · 09-09-2011 10:38am

MaryKing wrote: »

The Heineken Cup final is up there in intensity with internationals and I would have thought some of the games would be even more intense than some internationals (Leinster v Clermont in the RDS for example).

The point i'm making is that winning a European Player of the Year award with one team in a different competition isn't a compelling reason that someone should automatically picked in a different competition with different team mates with different skills.

In 2006 Anthony Foley* was the Heineken Cup winning Captain playing at No. 8 and Denis Leamy was No. 6 for Munster. Denis Leamy was Ireland's No. 8 and Anthony Foley wasn't in the Ireland squad.

*Later selected as the best No. 8 in the first 15 years of the Heineken Cup competition.

The Heineken Cup is right up there with international rugby in terms of intensity. For me it's the best tournament in the world. The strength of the teams, and the quality of players has improved to the point where there are very few blow outs or bad players playing in the tournament.

You couldn't say that about the RWC, the premier international rugby tournament. Just look at this mismatch on RTE2 right now, or what'll happen to Japan, Canada, USA, Russia & Namibia in this tournament.

Your point is ridiculous.

Sean O'Brien is a vastly superior player to Denis Leamy & Donncha Ryan. On their very best days, (which were years ago for Leamy), he wasn't half the player O'Brien is.

Teferi · 09-09-2011 10:43am

MaryKing wrote: »

The point i'm making is that winning a European Player of the Year award with one team in a different competition isn't a compelling reason that someone should automatically picked in a different competition with different team mates with different skills.

Oh give it up. SOB literally ran through everyone this year. He has been utterly incredible, the most exciting player to watch on the entire island of Ireland this year. He deserves everything he gets and more.

MaryKing · 09-09-2011 10:46am

vinny chase wrote: »

I still don't, and I'd say I'm not alone here, understand exactly what point it is you are trying to make here about Sean O'Brien?

Stop talking about man of the match awards and other awards for a while, and just state, what do you think Ireland's strongest back row is? What way would you pick it, and what way would you pick the bench?

For me, if everyone is fit, I'd have O'Brien @ 6, Wally @ 7 and Heaslip at 8, with Ferris on the bench.

If all were fit I'd have.
6. Ferris, 7. David Wallace, 8. Jamie Heaslip. Impact sub: Sean O'Brien.

Ferris because of his counter rucking & defense and his lineout ability. Sean O'Brien's best attribute is his ball carrying. David Wallace is a far better ball carrier than Shane Jennings so there is no loss there. When the game opens up a bit, Sean O'Brien's ball carrying would destroy any opposition.

Quite a few countries would kill for a backrow of 6. Ferris, 7. SOB, 8. Heislip though.

MaryKing · 09-09-2011 10:57am

vinny chase wrote: »

The Heineken Cup is right up there with international rugby in terms of intensity. For me it's the best tournament in the world. The strength of the teams, and the quality of players has improved to the point where there are very few blow outs or bad players playing in the tournament.

You couldn't say that about the RWC, the premier international rugby tournament. Just look at this mismatch on RTE2 right now, or what'll happen to Japan, Canada, USA, Russia & Namibia in this tournament.

Your point is ridiculous.

Sean O'Brien is a vastly superior player to Denis Leamy & Donncha Ryan. On their very best days, (which were years ago for Leamy), he wasn't half the player O'Brien is.

And there are no mismatches in Heineken Cup rugby then? We're going to see Leicester & Clermont v. Aironi shortly you know. Not all games are played in front of 50K in the Aviva.

Has anyone said that Leamy or Ryan should start before Sean O'Brien? Its Sean v. Stephen Ferris for the starting spot.

vinny chase · 09-09-2011 11:01am

MaryKing wrote: »

And there are no mismatches in Heineken Cup rugby then? We're going to see Leicester & Clermont v. Aironi shortly you know. Not all games are played in front of 50K in the Aviva.

Has anyone said that Leamy or Ryan should start before Sean O'Brien? Its Sean v. Stephen Ferris for the starting spot.

Not the same number, no.

Aironi are poorer than the average, but still beat one of the aristocrats of European rugby, Biarritz last season. What chance would Japan have of ever even living with the All Blacks?

As I said, there are very few poor players playing in the Heineken, whereas the RWC will have guys not too far removed from amateur status playing for loads of teams.

I don't get what all your points about Donncha Ryan & Denis Leamy were about then??!

For what it's worth, O'Brien is a better player than Ferris too. Ferris hasn't quite had the opportunity to live up to his potential because of his injury struggles, but for me, O'Brien is still better.

phog · 09-09-2011 11:22am

I think Wally is coming on the Ray Darcy show in a few minutes.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread

Comments