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is atheism religion?

  • 15-02-2012 9:00am
    #1
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭


    hiya mark
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Likewise, this is off topic, we can open a new thread for this (I would suggest in the A&A forum, as I'm sure they'd love to be told that atheism is a religion for the umpteenth time :rolleyes:)
    Here is my argument, yesterday an atheist priest banned for committing blasphemy against their religion. My crime was simple, i was an infidel according to teaching of atheism. I was just joking in a thread and the priest got annoyed and he threw me out of his holly land. But it's strange, in A&A, majority of topics contain off topic posts and jokes, the priest has got no problem with those ..... The priest took my post so personal, he broke his own charter while banning me. The action of priest proved it the he is very religious in defence of his religion/ his faith. Let see guys what you've got. I know, Hobbes is also athiest and in defence of his religion, for committing blamphey, he will delete / close my topic. ;).. i know, mark hamil you will do your best to defend your priest but it won't prove "athiesm isn't religion. The action of priest has proved.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Coriolanus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,879 ✭✭✭Coriolanus


    "Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby." - Can't remember who said it but it sums it up nicely.


  • #3
    Cavehill Red
    Registered Users Posts: 6,109 ✭✭✭Cavehill Red


    Atheism is simply a conviction that there is no such thing as a deity or god. That's it.

    A very small number of atheists, and I'd be one of them, would be religious. Specifically, we'd be atheist buddhists. Buddhism as a religion puts little store in the issue of whether there are divinities or not. Most forms of Buddhism accommodate theism (belief in god or gods), and many buddhists incorporate a sense of higher beings in their practice. But some of us don't. And that's perfectly fine and in keeping with buddhist tenets.

    Other than that, it's a category error to refer to atheism as a religion. I know that many religious people seek to equate the two, but it's not possible. That there is any overlap in the two at all (and there is, and I'm part of it) is solely because buddhism uniquely as a religion leaves it up to the individual whether believing in gods matter to them or not.


  • #4
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Nevore wrote: »
    "Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby." - Can't remember who said it but it sums it up nicely.
    what it has got to do with my point. I mean if atheism isn't religion then why a ban against a person like me, who rarely post on A&A foram.


  • #5
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    dead one wrote: »
    what it has got to do with my point. I mean if atheism isn't religion then why a ban against a person like me, who rarely post on A&A foram.

    Sometimes it hard to penetrate your manglish, but are you claiming that being banned by a moderator from the Atheism forum "proves" atheism is a religion? You can be banned from _any_ forum on boards.ie for various reasons. This does not mean the forum's subject is a religion.

    P.


  • #6
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    oceanclub wrote: »
    Sometimes it hard to penetrate your manglish, but are you claiming that being banned by a moderator from the Atheism forum "proves" atheism is a religion? You can be banned from _any_ forum on boards.ie for various reasons. This does not mean the forum's subject is a religion.

    P.
    hiya oceanclub. Forams ban members for particular reasons, I mean breaching the charter etc , I haven't done anything like that but the priest has breached its own charter. I mean, charter doesn't give him permission to ban me. Almost all topic in A&A contain one or two off topic post / jokes. He banned me because he took my post so personal. It proves my point, Atheism is religion in which the priest was committed.
    oceanclub wrote: »
    Sometimes it hard to penetrate your manglish
    are you admitting that you have no answer for my questions. The question which i asked you about Hijab.


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  • #7
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    dead one wrote: »
    hiya oceanclub. Forams ban members for particular reasons, I mean breaching the charter etc , I haven't done anything like that but the priest has breached its own charter. I mean, charter doesn't give him permission to ban me. Almost all topic in A&A contain one or two off topic post / jokes. He banned me because he took my post so personal. It proves my point, Atheism is religion in which the preset was committed.

    I presume when you say "priest" you mean "moderator". This kind of nonsense means people are going to take you less seriously than they already do.
    are you admitting that you have no answer for my questions.

    No, what's I'm saying is that your grammar and syntax are poor and sometimes I haven't a clue what you mean.

    P.


  • #8
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    oceanclub wrote: »
    I presume when you say "priest" you mean "moderator". This kind of nonsense means people are going to take you less seriously than they already do.
    Off course it's priest. Priests always take action when someone violate their faith.
    oceanclub wrote: »
    No, what's I'm saying is that your grammar and syntax are poor and sometimes I haven't a clue what you mean.
    P.
    If this is cause of my ban, then priest should have told me, Majority of forams don't ban people with weak grammar. That's general rule!!! Are you justifying action of priest, he belongs to your faith. Isn't atheism religion???


  • #9
    Sam V Smith
    Registered Users Posts: 52 ✭✭Sam V Smith


    dead one wrote: »
    hiya oceanclub. Forams ban members for particular reasons, I mean breaching the charter etc , I haven't done anything like that but the priest has breached its own charter. I mean, charter doesn't give him permission to ban me. Almost all topic in A&A contain one or two off topic post / jokes. He banned me because he took my post so personal. It proves my point, Atheism is religion in which the priest was committed.

    are you admitting that you have no answer for my questions. The question which i asked you about Hijab.

    I think it's more likely that you were banned for being an idiot.


  • #10
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    dead one wrote: »
    Off course it's priest. Priests always take action when someone violate their faith. Rant argh barble.

    The reason for you being banned now makes perfect sense.

    P.


  • #11
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Sam V Smith wrote: »
    I think it's more likely that you were banned for being an idiot.
    bring charter of your priests/religion and tell me where it is written """ if you are idiot you will be banned" .... be logical sam vs smith. Are you telling me priest was religious.


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  • #12
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    oceanclub wrote: »
    The reason for you being banned now makes perfect sense.

    P.
    Don't create new reasons, You said, i was banned because of my weak grammer. You aren't man of words.


  • #13
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    dead one wrote: »
    You said, i was banned because of my weak grammer.
    No he didn't.


  • #14
    hivizman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    In my moderator's capacity, I feel it necessary to mention that I do not consider it appropriate for a discussion of the actions of moderators on another forum to be debated here. On the other hand, I would be prepared to tolerate a discussion of the general question of whether atheism is a religion, particularly if this is addressed from an Islamic perspective.

    In a more personal capacity, it may help such a debate to refer to some definitions. These are taken from Chambers English Dictionary:

    "Atheism: disbelief in the existence of a god."

    "God: a superhuman being, an object of worship (with cap.), the Supreme Being of monotheistic religions, the Creator."

    "Religion: belief in, recognition of, or an awakened sense of, a higher unseen controlling power or powers, with the emotion and morality connected therewith: rites or worship: any system of such belief or worship."

    My own take on this, given the definitions above, is that (unless "a higher unseen controlling power or powers" is equated with "a superhuman being"), it is possible for an atheist to deny the existence of a god but at the same time to be religious (see Cavehill Red earlier in the thread). However, many (most?) atheists would deny the presence of a higher unseen controlling power or powers (presumably things like gravity wouldn't count here?), so, in general terms, it is incorrect to assert that "atheism is a religion".

    Of course, if one is using the term "religion" metaphorically, and the sentence is actually asserting something like: "many atheists behave with a degree of intolerance that is often associated (particularly by atheists themselves) with adherents of monotheistic religions such as Islam", then that's a different claim.


  • #15
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    Dead one, I said to make this thread in the A&A forum because this is likely to be close in this forum (and rightfully so), as its got nothing to do with Islam.

    EDIT: On the other hand, if the mods dont mind...

    If you have a problem with being banned from A&A for arguing with a mod in thread, after being given a warning for posting gibberish, then maybe the feedback forum would be more appropriate then here?


  • #16
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    hivizman wrote: »
    In a more personal capacity, it may help such a debate to refer to some definitions. These are taken from Chambers English Dictionary:

    "Atheism: disbelief in the existence of a god."

    "God: a superhuman being, an object of worship (with cap.), the Supreme Being of monotheistic religions, the Creator."

    "Religion: belief in, recognition of, or an awakened sense of, a higher unseen controlling power or powers, with the emotion and morality connected therewith: rites or worship: any system of such belief or worship."

    My own take on this, given the definitions above, is that (unless "a higher unseen controlling power or powers" is equated with "a superhuman being"), it is possible for an atheist to deny the existence of a god but at the same time to be religious (see Cavehill Red earlier in the thread). However, many (most?) atheists would deny the presence of a higher unseen controlling power or powers (presumably things like gravity wouldn't count here?), so, in general terms, it is incorrect to assert that "atheism is a religion".

    Of course, if one is using the term "religion" metaphorically, and the sentence is actually asserting something like: "many atheists behave with a degree of intolerance that is often associated (particularly by atheists themselves) with adherents of monotheistic religions such as Islam", then that's a different claim.

    Its a case of separating the atheist from atheism.
    Can atheists be religious? Sure, you already the example from Cavehill Red who is an atheist Buddhist, and you can of course get atheists who are as intolerant as the most intolerant of religious adherents, nutcases can appear everywhere.
    But atheism? Well you can have a "does not play football" person who is still very sporty, but that doesn't mean that "not playing football" is itself a sport.


  • #17
    hivizman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Well you can have a "does not play football" person who is still very sporty, but that doesn't mean that "not playing football" is itself a sport.

    "The sport of not playing football" sounds like the sort of thing that a columnist in one of the weekend newspapers might write about. My dictionary defines "sport" (as a noun) as "recreation: pastime: dalliance, amorous behaviour: play: a game, esp. one involving bodily exercise: mirth: jest" (and a few more). So an individual could say "my sport (i.e. my pastime) is not playing football", but only ironically, I suspect.

    So I think we agree that one can only say "atheism is a religion" in some sort of ironical or metaphorical way - without the irony, the sentence just doesn't make any sense.


  • #18
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    hivizman wrote: »
    In my moderator's capacity, I feel it necessary to mention that I do not consider it appropriate for a discussion of the actions of moderators on another forum to be debated here. On the other hand, I would be prepared to tolerate a discussion of the general question of whether atheism is a religion, particularly if this is addressed from an Islamic perspective.

    Hi hivizman, you're good a moderator, and i respect what you said above... so feel free to delete / amend any post of mine. I won't complaint about it. I didn't find any hypocrisy in your moderation as long as i stayed here. I always protest against dictators/hypocrites, If i smell hypocrisy in your line of work, you won't find me on your side......
    for the time being, Here are my reason for ban which i conclude

    According to Ocean club, I was banned because of my weak grammer (hell on earth)... Is it justice?

    According to Sam vs Smith... I was banned because i was idiot again hell on earth
    The good fella, Seamus, didn't give any reason... I know what he was thinking in his mind.
    According the intellectual giant the Mark Hamil, i was banned because i started arguing with moderator... but the genius forget, it's moderator who started quoting me, I didn't quote any moderator....
    Thanks, i highly appreciate this justice... So long ;)


  • #19
    quietriot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 347 ✭✭quietriot


    dead one wrote: »
    Hi hivizman, you're good a moderator, and i respect what you said above... so feel free to delete / amend any post of mine. I won't complaint about it. I didn't find any hypocrisy in your moderation as long as i stayed here. I always protest against dictators/hypocrites, If i smell hypocrisy in your line of work, you won't find me on your side......
    for the time being, Here are my reason for ban which i conclude

    According to Ocean club, I was banned because of my weak grammer (hell on earth)... Is it justice?

    According to Sam vs Smith... I was banned because i was idiot again hell on earth
    The good fella, Seamus, didn't give any reason... I know what he was thinking in his mind.
    According the intellectual giant the Mark Hamil, i was banned because i started arguing with moderator... but the genius forget, it's moderator who started quoting me, I didn't quote any moderator....
    Thanks, i highly appreciate this justice... So long ;)

    jackie-chan-meme.png


  • #20
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    Nevore wrote: »
    "Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby." - Can't remember who said it but it sums it up nicely.

    Also, Bald is not a hair colour :)


  • #21
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    quietriot wrote: »
    jackie-chan-meme.png
    dear quietriot, "I have begun my voyage in a paper boat without a bottom; I will fly to the moon in it. I have been folded along a crease in time, a weakness in the sheet of life."


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  • #22
    Pacifist Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Pacifist Pigeon


    By definition:

    Oxford English Dictionary:
    Religion
    Pronunciation: /rɪˈlɪdʒ(ə)n/
    noun
    [mass noun]
    the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/religion?q=religion
    Atheism
    Pronunciation: /ˈeɪθɪɪz(ə)m/
    noun
    [mass noun]
    disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

    http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/atheism?q=Atheism+

    Atheism = Non-Religious.

    Religious = Religious.

    Therefore,

    Atheism =/= Religious.

    Therefore,

    Atheism =/= Religion


  • #23
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    dead one wrote: »
    My crime was simple, i was an infidel according to teaching of atheism. The priest took my post so personal, he broke his own charter while banning me.

    [EDIT]Self deleted as off topic[/EDIT]

    As for atheism being a religion. It is a religion in the same way not collecting stamps is a hobby. Atheism is the rejection of theistic claims, nothing more nothing less.


  • #24
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,957 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Just as an atheist doesn't get to tell a Muslim what Islam is or isn't, a Muslim shouldn't try to tell atheists what atheism is or isn't. There's a good site where you can ask atheists what they think about all kinds of things, called (amazingly) Ask The Atheists. Some of the answers can be quite surprising. On the question of "is atheism a religion", you're not going to get a "yes" from any atheist, so that should be that.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • #25
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    I think to say it is, is just to get a rise out of atheists a lot of the time, but I believe it to be in the realm of religion. I think most people I know who actively declare themselves atheist, have a lot to say on matters of religion. Their atheism is part of the religious discussion. So while we can get into the definitions of atheism (Which are defined and redefined depending on who you ask), its not really important. The fact is, those who've taken the step to reject religion and call themselves atheist, usually have a lot to say about it. It has all the conviction of religiosity, without the structure I find. Its kind of pseudo religious. Of course, I expect many atheists simply hate the association, and my intention is not to p!ss them off. However, word semantics and definitions aside, the conviction and passion of many atheists/anti-religionists ironically resembles religiosity. Thats my view anyway. If I come across such an atheist, I don't try force the point. It would be like an atheist believing I am deluded for believing in God and trying to push that point. Better, if we wish to converse, to keep those views away from the conversation or the dialogue just becomes pantomime.


  • #26
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I think to say it is, is just to get a rise out of atheists a lot of the time, but I believe it to be in the realm of religion. I think most people I know who actively declare themselves atheist, have a lot to say on matters of religion. Their atheism is part of the religious discussion. So while we can get into the definitions of atheism (Which are defined and redefined depending on who you ask), its not really important. The fact is, those who've taken the step to reject religion and call themselves atheist, usually have a lot to say about it. It has all the conviction of religiosity, without the structure I find. Its kind of pseudo religious. Of course, I expect many atheists simply hate the association, and my intention is not to p!ss them off. However, word semantics and definitions aside, the conviction and passion of many atheists/anti-religionists ironically resembles religiosity. Thats my view anyway. If I come across such an atheist, I don't try force the point. It would be like an atheist believing I am deluded for believing in God and trying to push that point. Better, if we wish to converse, to keep those views away from the conversation or the dialogue just becomes pantomime.

    None of what you say is incorrect, but neither does it mean that atheism is a religion.

    Another example: I am not a sports fan. I have no interest in watching televised sports at all, but obviously in society this is a big interest, especially if you're male. This leaves one at a disadvantage on social occasions, work outside, etc. I've had many discussions about this. But it just makes it a topic I'm interested in. Lack of interest in sports is not in itself a hobby.

    P.


  • #27
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    oceanclub wrote: »
    None of what you say is incorrect, but neither does it mean that atheism is a religion.
    Oceanclub, why are you eager to tell, "athiesm isn't religion"... Why you are taking it so religious? ;)... I mean majority of atheist when it comes to this debate become so religious. This proves atheism is religion as collecting stamp is hobby.


  • #28
    hivizman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    dead one wrote: »
    Oceanclub, why are you eager to tell, "athiesm isn't religion"... Why you are taking it so religious? ;)... I mean majority of atheist when it comes to this debate become so religious. This proves atheism is religion as collecting stamp is hobby.

    But it's already been pointed out in the thread that using "religious" in the above sense is going beyond the literal meaning of the term.

    It may be correct to describe the way in which some people defend atheism as "fervent" - defined in my dictionary as "passionate, ardent, zealous". "Zeal" itself is defined as "intense (sometimes fanatical) enthusiasm; activity arising from warm support or enthusiasm; strong feeling", so it is not surprising that some people who feel strongly about the non-existence of a supreme being behave in similar ways to those who feel strongly about the existence of a supreme being. But that does not make their behaviour "religious", except in a metaphorical sense.


  • #29
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Atheism is about as close to religion as Abstinence is to sex.

    Complete opposites.


  • #30
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    oceanclub wrote: »
    None of what you say is incorrect, but neither does it mean that atheism is a religion.

    I didn't actually say it was a religion. I said it was part of the religious discussion and that it can be a kind of pseudo-religion. All the fervour and conviction of religiosity, but without the structure.
    Another example: I am not a sports fan. I have no interest in watching televised sports at all, but obviously in society this is a big interest, especially if you're male. This leaves one at a disadvantage on social occasions, work outside, etc. I've had many discussions about this. But it just makes it a topic I'm interested in. Lack of interest in sports is not in itself a hobby.

    P.

    I often see this 'not collecting stamps....' argument. Its a total misnomer. In practical terms, people who declare themselves atheists, are very rearely just simply 'without belief in God' etc. They are serious enough about the topic to stand against it. In reality, to call yourself atheist usually indicates quite an interest in the topic, and usually quite a vicerol objection to it. So you see, from a strictly difinitive, sematic side, atheism is just a word that means 'a belief that there is no God or gods'. In reality though, atheists are mostly made up of people who have an interest and conviction in what they are rejecting etc. Not playing chess is not a hobby, but if I label myself based on this not playing of chess, and in turn get involved in the conversation about chess, and have a conviction as to why I don't play it, then that can be a bit of a Pseudo hobby.


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  • #31
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    JimiTime wrote: »
    They are serious enough about the topic to stand against itt stamps. In reality, to call yourself atheist usually indicates quite an interest in the topic, and usually quite a vicerol objection to it.

    Noone has said atheists don't have a serious interest in the topic of religion.

    What has been said is that atheism is not a religion.

    That's the last time I repeat myself on this.

    P.


This discussion has been closed.
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