Armed Police in Ireland

FGR · 17-10-2015 10:54pm

I find that seeing armed police in London, Paris and New York gave me a little more sense of security. It's nice to know that if a madman pulled a gun from somewhere that he could actually be stopped without waiting half an hour for the nearest armed unit to get to you.

Harry Bosch. · 18-10-2015 4:39am

I do not think regular Gardai will be armed soon. I fear more members will suffer in the course of their duties before that happens. Do Garda management go the proactive route and arm all Gardai before that happens? No they will not. What is the threshold that has to be reached before all Gardai become armed, i fear we are well below it and far from it.We are somewhat linked to the UK and yet they remain mostly unarmed. I would like to see an upgraded stab vest / body armour. One only has to look at the condition of some members vests and its not reassuring, not to mention a one style suits all model.I do think a taser is a must, be it open carry or concealed in a pouch, god forbid the public see it!! i think the first on scene should have the tools to deal with the majority of the calls, and then have the specialised units follow. I would love to see dog units assigned to regular units and responding to calls and as an added resource. I was introduced to a friends relation who is a cop visiting from the USA and he was shocked at our gear. He patrols alone, has his own car, his vest has ceramic plates in it!! His sidearm is a Glock, he carry's a back up concealed pistol,the beloved taser, ASP, spray, two sets of handcuffs etc. He as an A.R 15 rifle and a shotgun, he is just over one year in the job and aged 25. Now i know you cannot compare the two but he has the tools for the job. They are now retraining due to the anti cop sentiment in the U.S.A. They also stay on one shift for the year, be it early late or nights, they do not rotate.He made one comment to me after his visit to the city, and it was do AGS have annual fitness tests? If he fails his yearly fitness, and his various courses annually he is off patrol.

Terrontress · 18-10-2015 8:10am

Harry Bosch. wrote: »

I do not think regular Gardai will be armed soon. I fear more members will suffer in the course of their duties before that happens. Do Garda management go the proactive route and arm all Gardai before that happens? No they will not. What is the threshold that has to be reached before all Gardai become armed, i fear we are well below it and far from it.We are somewhat linked to the UK and yet they remain mostly unarmed. I would like to see an upgraded stab vest / body armour. One only has to look at the condition of some members vests and its not reassuring, not to mention a one style suits all model.I do think a taser is a must, be it open carry or concealed in a pouch, god forbid the public see it!! i think the first on scene should have the tools to deal with the majority of the calls, and then have the specialised units follow. I would love to see dog units assigned to regular units and responding to calls and as an added resource. I was introduced to a friends relation who is a cop visiting from the USA and he was shocked at our gear. He patrols alone, has his own car, his vest has ceramic plates in it!! His sidearm is a Glock, he carry's a back up concealed pistol,the beloved taser, ASP, spray, two sets of handcuffs etc. He as an A.R 15 rifle and a shotgun, he is just over one year in the job and aged 25. Now i know you cannot compare the two but he has the tools for the job. They are now retraining due to the anti cop sentiment in the U.S.A. They also stay on one shift for the year, be it early late or nights, they do not rotate.He made one comment to me after his visit to the city, and it was do AGS have annual fitness tests? If he fails his yearly fitness, and his various courses annually he is off patrol.

I think that the US model is wrong as regards arming. It is too easy to let the gun do all the work. How often do we see clips from COPS where they just use the gun from the start. Traffic stops, they pull a gun out and instruct the driver to get out of the car.

The difficulty with this is that people grow to think that every interaction with a police involves guns and so the criminals start to do the same.

I think that anyone carrying a firearm should have some form of sensor attached to it and the holder have to account for each time it is withdrawn from its holster / safe. Was there a route to diffuse a situation without drawing a gun?

In London they have a good system where, if armed support is needed, they call in a specialist team, but Ireland doesn't have the same population density as London so the same model won't work here.

So I guess I'd support arming of the Gardaí, but with very strict controls.

RustyNut · 18-10-2015 8:44am

An insightful view of the future. Mabe

:D:D

18-10-2015 11:52am

Let's not hold London or the UK up as an example, remember how long they wait for an armed unit for the killers of Lee Rigby? Or the active shooter incident a few years previously up the country?

pah · 19-10-2015 12:48am

I think this would be a good start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB11JfPmerg

syklops · 19-10-2015 1:10am

EireGun wrote: »

Haha, don't worry I'm not a bad guy!

No-one suggested you are but if someone releases operationally sensitive information to you here, a bad guy could read it and use it.

Why do you need to know this stuff?

Edit: Crap, didnt realise I had replied to this thread back in 2013, basically saying the same thing.

afatbollix · 20-10-2015 6:36pm

FGR wrote: »

I find that seeing armed police in London, Paris and New York gave me a little more sense of security. It's nice to know that if a madman pulled a gun from somewhere that he could actually be stopped without waiting half an hour for the nearest armed unit to get to you.

Seriously when was the last time you seen someone just walk around with a gun.

Locust · 17-11-2015 4:22am

Paris?

Markcheese · 17-11-2015 9:18pm

Locust wrote: »

Paris?

Worked well for the two armed
officers in the Charlie hebdo offices....
Aren't all French police armed ? But a side arm's not great against nutters with assault rifles .. It's real life not lethal weapon 3 ..... Even if 5 or 6 cars with armed beat officers had turned up outside the Bataclan theatre straight away they couldn't have just marched in - it would have been suicide ...

Locust · 18-11-2015 1:38am

I beg to differ.

Obviously assault rifles outmatch handguns, I can't argue against that... but trained people who know how to react v terrorist is very different

History shows trained people with firearms will be a deterrent or a solution to ending an armed incident.
If one or two officers been present (at say the concert?) carrying off duty it could have been different.

I wouldn't give the terrorists as much glory - '...that they could hold off 5-6 police units' like you said - its real life, not the movie Heat. These guys weren't exactly special forces and went about completely unchallenged. I'd put money on it that if you fired on them they wouldn't be as brave.

In a hypothetical replay with two armed officers present, off duty - Yes the bad guys would have got off a number of rounds and killed people and likely would have blown themselves up but I believe the death toll would have been SIGNIFICANTLY reduced.

Worked well for the incident in Garland Texas being a prime example
Worked well for Chinese police who were charged by the Uyghur terrorist with an axe and a bomb, also the NYPD officers earlier in the year
Worked well for the numerous Israeli security forces carrying off duty in recent terror attacks
(Lots more examples)

CB19Kevo · 18-11-2015 7:47am

Locust wrote: »

I beg to differ.

Obviously assault rifles outmatch handguns, I can't argue against that... but trained people who know how to react v terrorist is very different

History shows trained people with firearms will be a deterrent or a solution to ending an armed incident.
If one or two officers been present (at say the concert?) carrying off duty it could have been different.

I wouldn't give the terrorists as much glory - '...that they could hold off 5-6 police units' like you said - its real life, not the movie Heat. These guys weren't exactly special forces and went about completely unchallenged. I'd put money on it that if you fired on them they wouldn't be as brave.

In a hypothetical replay with two armed officers present, off duty - Yes the bad guys would have got off a number of rounds and killed people and likely would have blown themselves up but I believe the death toll would have been SIGNIFICANTLY reduced.

Worked well for the incident in Garland Texas being a prime example
Worked well for Chinese police who were charged by the Uyghur terrorist with an axe and a bomb, also the NYPD officers earlier in the year
Worked well for the numerous Israeli security forces carrying off duty in recent terror attacks
(Lots more examples)

Reality is that many of these terrorists are well trained and some have killed before in live combat,Unlike police who may never fire in a real life situation.
Do not underestimate the threat,Paris police have been injured this morning in a gun battle and these officers would likely be from a specialist firearms tactical unit.

Locust · 18-11-2015 12:13pm

First officer through the door in a raid like that is always likely to be injured, 60-80% chance of it - as seen by the pic of the shield all shot up...
That's simply the danger of being the first man through a door... Any idiot can hide in a room with a machine gun pointed at that door and fire when the raid starts...

But in public, in an unassumedn attack it's a different story, an armed person carrying in plain clothes has a massive advantage! And has the potential to end the threat or dramatically reduce casualties

The fact that bad guys may've killed before just makes them callous barbarians, it doesn't mean they aren't scared and unpredictable. All the more reason to put hem down.

afatbollix · 18-11-2015 2:30pm

All officers are armed in Paris and they still had to wait for back up before going into the concert hall.

afatbollix · 18-11-2015 2:49pm

New police get up in London

Locust · 18-11-2015 3:51pm

afatbollix wrote: »

All officers are armed in Paris and they still had to wait for back up before going into the concert hall.

Of course but I was wondering about a scenario where an off duty officer was perhaps at that concert or cafe and was carrying? I know most don't carry off duty, but in light of the threat perhaps certain members should be authorised

Markcheese · 18-11-2015 6:35pm

Locust wrote: »

Of course but I was wondering about a scenario where an off duty officer was perhaps at that concert or cafe and was carrying? I know most don't carry off duty, but in light of the threat perhaps certain members should be authorised

I know I'm taking the argument to extremes- but why not just have armed citizens ( approved of course, no foreigners need apply) roaming the streets taking shots at suspicious people - of course they'd be likely to shoot each other...

18-11-2015 7:36pm

This conversation is getting a bit...

military-humor-funny-joke-soldier-army-gun-internet-warrior.jpg

greendom · 21-11-2015 7:53pm

I was in both Frankurt and Lyon airports this week. All police were armed. Coming back to Dublin and seeing the gardai walking around without weapons was quite disturbing and made them look pretty pathetic in comparison, Bearing in mind the potential threat this really has to change

Locust · 21-11-2015 10:56pm

I've used baton twice spray a lot more... (Won't say!) There is definitely a need for taser and armed police... Apart from them fact It's a massive deterrent.

Better to have the tool and not need it that to need it and not have it...

I read that the first regular cops on scene at the concert siege in Paris shot one terrorist dead in the initial face off before BRI arrived... Saving God knows how many more people!

Ireland and the mentality of the Irish people in regards to this topic is in such a f**king bubble... People cower melt and **** themselves when they see firearms in police hands... AGS is a 1980's police force in a 2015 world it's f**king joke... I feel much safer walking past cops with sub machine guns in Heathrow or being stopped at a traffic checkpoint in the north with armed psni... Get with the rest of the world - we're a laughing stock / criminals paradise

Harry Bosch. · 25-11-2015 7:22pm

The ASP and the Pepper spray are great tools and we all know the circumstances they can and cannot be deployed in, but as the threat and the danger level increases both home and abroad i feel that the need for the introduction of the Taser is warranted, i would also be in favour of arming but that is another debate. This is an organisation that is far behind the times, we only have to look at the wooden truncheon that was on offer up untill 2007. We had members told to revert to there issued handcuff pouch as the new one they bought showed to much of the handcuff! The ASP, Stabvest, spray all came too late. I understand that the uniform did /does offer some protection in the sense that no one would ever touch a Garda but the times have changed, atittudes have changed and its time for AGS to change .Almost every member has been assaulted in some manner and its time for the best possible equipment to be issued as standard kit. Does the public care what you look like or what gear you have? The days of going to a call looking good for the public and armed with a truncheon are over.

kub · 28-11-2015 2:28pm

That respect that AGS had up to not so long ago is well and truly on the way out.
The despicable way in which Gardai are treated now by some of the public says it all really.
I would have no issue now with all members being armed.

Damien360 · 28-11-2015 2:39pm

kub wrote: »

That respect that AGS had up to not so long ago is well and truly on the way out.
The despicable way in which Gardai are treated now by some of the public says it all really.
I would have no issue now with all members being armed.

I would see the problem as the law.

We all know and see the criminals in our area and the guards and powerless to stop them. Even if they do, it is a slap on the wrist. We all read this in the local papers every single week.

Most of us do not separate the judiciary and the police in terms of source of the issue. Often the police are the fall guys and there is no surprise when the local Garda couldn't care less anymore, whether this is true or perceived.

So to your above statement that the AGS are loosing their respect, I agree. Until real sentencing is brought in, giving the gardai "teeth", the general poor outlook towards the gardai will continue downwards.

Terrontress · 28-11-2015 9:35pm

Damien360 wrote: »

I would see the problem as the law.

We all know and see the criminals in our area and the guards and powerless to stop them. Even if they do, it is a slap on the wrist. We all read this in the local papers every single week.

Most of us do not separate the judiciary and the police in terms of source of the issue. Often the police are the fall guys and there is no surprise when the local Garda couldn't care less anymore, whether this is true or perceived.

So to your above statement that the AGS are loosing their respect, I agree. Until real sentencing is brought in, giving the gardai "teeth", the general poor outlook towards the gardai will continue downwards.

The effort that the guards put in. Looking at cctv, getting witness statements, finding out who a thug is, putting themselves in danger by going round to their rat hole to arrest them, building the case, then attending court, testifying, reassuring witnesses. And what do the judges do? Suspended sentences, acknowledge sob stories, annoy the pubic, spread fear, undermine the Gardaí.

Something needs to change.

kub · 28-11-2015 9:43pm

Damien360 wrote: »

I would see the problem as the law.

We all know and see the criminals in our area and the guards and powerless to stop them. Even if they do, it is a slap on the wrist. We all read this in the local papers every single week.

Most of us do not separate the judiciary and the police in terms of source of the issue. Often the police are the fall guys and there is no surprise when the local Garda couldn't care less anymore, whether this is true or perceived.

So to your above statement that the AGS are loosing their respect, I agree. Until real sentencing is brought in, giving the gardai "teeth", the general poor outlook towards the gardai will continue downwards.

Well i could not agree with you more with regard to the punishment or should i say lack of which proven law breakers receive in courts, i can't help sometimes but think that because of such things as free legal aid, no matter how many previous convictions someone has is there, then the more these farcical sentences etc will continue as there is now good business to be gained by defence legal teams for repeat offenders. All at the tax payers expense of course.

My main point is having viewed some clips of these Irish Water protests, I am shocked at the disrespect that some 'people' showed Gardai. Granted an armed Garda here is not appropriate, but would these people be more respectful if they knew that the man they are mouthing off too usually carries a gun?

28-11-2015 10:00pm

kub wrote: »

My main point is having viewed some clips of these Irish Water protests, I am shocked at the disrespect that some 'people' showed Gardai. Granted an armed Garda here is not appropriate, but would these people be more respectful if they knew that the man they are mouthing off too usually carries a gun?

Look up protests from countries where cops carry guns, they still get abuse from protesters.

kub · 28-11-2015 11:33pm

foreign wrote: »

Look up protests from countries where cops carry guns, they still get abuse from protesters.

I hear you, but is it only a recent thing here now as in over the last generation?

29-11-2015 9:43am

kub wrote: »

I hear you, but is it only a recent thing here now as in over the last generation?

I'm not in the job long enough to answer that. But I'd guess probably not.

Preset No.3 · 29-11-2015 3:02pm

I was always of the opinion that visible weapons were a deterrent. One day i asked a couple of armed guys why they had to cover sidearms when walking into a shop or somewhere. I was told this was a directive from management. Would it not make more sense if armed members had sidearms on show to act somewhat as a deterrent against potential criminal activity. Show the public that there is visible protection.

IRLConor · 30-11-2015 7:11pm

Shooting a pistol properly takes a ton of training (and I'm not even including the shoot/no shoot and tactical bits I have no knowledge about). Somehow I can't see budget being allocated to afford Gardai the ability to keep up to date.

Then when someone gets hurt who shouldn't be, it'll be the member who takes the shot that gets the blame even if he/she made the best decision possible in the circumstances.

It's not fair to the average Garda to issue him/her a pistol and not pay for the time, ammunition and instructors needed to maintain the necessary skills but I suspect that's what would happen.

To be honest though, the purchase price of the guns alone will probably keep the topic off the table for years to come.

Armed Police in Ireland

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