Litter fine, but i didnt litter??

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-07-2014 7:59pm

GrayFox208 wrote: »

Fair enough... Tell them you didn't litter, and if they dispute that tell them to prove it

That's when they usually go to court and say to the guy sitting higher than everyone else here is the evidence you decide. The one advantage to the OP is if the LA do not prove the case, the OP can request the cost of defending the matter if solicitor engaged if not the OP is entitled to claim expenses.

Murray007 · 29-07-2014 8:01pm

Your are missing the point OP, the rubbish from your car is domestic rubbish. Public bins are meant for one off items as you are passing. If everyone did what you did then the council couldn't keep up with emptying what are meant to be bin for passers by.

You were caught! Civic duty is not to put such pressure on the system that the system fails for all. Bring your car rubbish home. If you are walking down the street and eating a nice cream you put the wrapper in the bin, but you will only be able to do this if there were not a couple of fickwits there before you stuffing the rubbish contents of their car into a street bin.

The same thing happens along our inland waterways. The bins at docking points are meant for tourists but people come along and out domestic rubbish in and around them meaning lovely areas along out waterways turn into rubbish tips.

Again, the accumulated rubbish from your car is domestic rubbish, Your line will not be listened to in court, pay your fine. It will help pay to haul away all the rubbish you have dumped and not been caught for.

Little CuChulainn · 29-07-2014 8:03pm

I'm amazed that so many people have difficulty understanding why a bag of rubbish would be considered domestic wastes. I mean, how many of those bags do you think a bin can hold? 5 or 6 before it's full? Public bins are there for convenience so people don't have to carry around litter. They aren't there to clean out your car. You can do that at home. The sense of entitlement that you should be able to use it as you please because you pay a tax is also astounding. Try looking at the bigger picture for a moment.

In the ops case, the witness or litter warden has no way of knowing where the bag of rubbish came from. He could have been dumping his kitchen bin for all they know, and that was probably their assumption. If the op where to go to court, it would be my guess this would be the issue in dispute. The witness would have to appear and give evidence. That might be enough for the judge or it might not. He might believe the op. Of course, if the litter warden actually dug out the bag and found domestic waste in it then the op could be in trouble. In the end, it will be up to the op to decide whether it's worth taking that risk.

Jawgap · 29-07-2014 8:12pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

That's when they usually go to court and say to the guy sitting higher than everyone else here is the evidence you decide. The one advantage to the OP is if the LA do not prove the case, the OP can request the cost of defending the matter if solicitor engaged if not the OP is entitled to claim expenses.

He can ask, but he won't get........it's quite unusual for costs of the defence to be paid, unless the judge is mightily p1ssed off with the prosecution because they maliciously or frivolously prosecuted a case.

It would be a mistake, OP, to plan going to court on the basis that your costs will be covered.

My advice is to contact the LA concerned and activate an administrative appeal......for example.......

http://fingalcoco.ie/media/Litter%20fine%20appeal%20form.pdf - find the equivalent form for your own LA.

Murray007 · 29-07-2014 8:16pm

OP don't assume that the person who reported you will not go to court or that there isn't other evidence to prove the deed.

I travel for work, drink bottles of water and eat the odd sandwich in the car. No issue with two or three items of wrapping in a public bin but cleaning out your car into a bag and disposing of it in a single street bin is disposing of domestic rubbish, there doesn't need to be a mistaken belief that it is rubbish from your house. It is domestic rubbish from your car. What else would it be, it's not industrial rubbish, it not a wrapper from a sandwich and coke that you just had for lunch in the car. It is a bag of your domestic rubbish.

Pro Hoc Vice · 29-07-2014 8:25pm

Jawgap wrote: »

He can ask, but he won't get........it's quite unusual for costs of the defence to be paid, unless the judge is mightily p1ssed off with the prosecution because they maliciously or frivolously prosecuted a case.

It would be a mistake, OP, to plan going to court on the basis that your costs will be covered.

My advice is to contact the LA concerned and activate an administrative appeal......for example.......

http://fingalcoco.ie/media/Litter%20fine%20appeal%20form.pdf - find the equivalent form for your own LA.

Costs of defence are never paid nor allowed against the DPP or AGS but are allowed as against any other prosecutor and I have seen them requested and granted.

Murray007 · 29-07-2014 8:26pm

OP you did it, you admitted it and maybe there is one person educated by the experience.

Remember, if the person reported it then they felt strongly enough about it. They could have been a litter warden, a civic minded person with a mobile phone that can take a photo, or an off duty person of certain credibility in the community and if you also gone into court and admit it like you did in the opening post as if you have done nothing wrong then you will lose and suffer the costs.

In a rural community this means also getting reported in the local newspaper, love that, should be more of it in urban areas.

Jawgap · 29-07-2014 9:01pm

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Costs of defence are never paid nor allowed against the DPP or AGS but are allowed as against any other prosecutor and I have seen them requested and granted.

So have I, but only in those rare circumstances where the judge wants to punish the prosecuting authority.......the OP may get them, but he shouldn't plan on getting them.

In the first instance he should lodge an administrative appeal. I've already posted Fingal's form, but here's DCC's......

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content//SiteCollectionDocuments/Litter_Appeal_Form.doc

......or don't appeal and, as I said earlier, roll the dice in the district court.

Fred Swanson · 29-07-2014 9:12pm

This post has been deleted.

Jawgap · 29-07-2014 9:19pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Actually you don't.

You put yourself in a district court in front of a district justice who, on a bad day, could get very cranky - which could cost dearly if he decides to make an example of the OP.

If the admin appeal fails you can still pay the fixed charge.

I think anyone advising the OP to go to court should have the courage of their convictions and offer to underwrite his defence - after all if he has a good case and his costs are likely to be reimbursed the when what have you to lose?

BorneTobyWilde · 29-07-2014 9:26pm

andreac wrote: »

3.—(1) A person shall not—

(a) deposit anywhere, whether in a receptacle or not, any substance, material or thing for collection by or on behalf of a local authority, or

.

You did this, but by that wording everyone who placed litter in the bin also did this.

Murray007 · 29-07-2014 9:56pm

If you are reading the legislation in a legal sense you should read it in a common man interpretation i.e what the the common mans expectation would be.

Common sense dictates if you are building up rubbish in your car and tidy it into a bag for disposal that it is a collection situation rather than spitting your chewing gum out or disposing of an ice cream rapper or a cigarette packet into a public bin.

Hear people, being able to quote sections out of legislation doesn't mean you can interpret it in line with your own moral values. If the common man value means dumping a bag full of rubbish out of your car or a bag full of house waste or a bag full of hospital waste or a bag full of chemical waste in a public bin because it's a small bag where does it stop. I am exaggerating but society cannot be based on the lowest common denominator.

And by that I mean the guys who are saying its better than throwing it out the window of the car. Hey, people used to shat in the streets in the 1900s, its so much better that they save it up and pop it in street bins now!

mfceiling · 30-07-2014 6:23pm

Murray007 wrote: »

Your are missing the point OP, the rubbish from your car is domestic rubbish. Public bins are meant for one off items as you are passing. If everyone did what you did then the council couldn't keep up with emptying what are meant to be bin for passers by.

You were caught! Civic duty is not to put such pressure on the system that the system fails for all. Bring your car rubbish home. If you are walking down the street and eating a nice cream you put the wrapper in the bin, but you will only be able to do this if there were not a couple of fickwits there before you stuffing the rubbish contents of their car into a street bin.

The same thing happens along our inland waterways. The bins at docking points are meant for tourists but people come along and out domestic rubbish in and around them meaning lovely areas along out waterways turn into rubbish tips.

Again, the accumulated rubbish from your car is domestic rubbish, Your line will not be listened to in court, pay your fine. It will help pay to haul away all the rubbish you have dumped and not been caught for.

What if i have a can of coke, a sweet wrapper and an empty packet of crisps? That is more than a "one off item".

Common sense tells you that a small bag of rubbish from your car into a bin is ok....a black bin liner of rubbish from your house is totally wrong.

I've had 2 meetings with a litter warden. Once I received an €80 fine for overloading my black bin - someone had put 3 bags of their rubbish on top of mine when i left my bin out the night before - litter warden wouldn't hear my complaint and the exact words i got was "he'll see you in court, and he has never lost yet"

The second was at Hanover Quay - after having had my lunch in my van i put my rubbish and my mates into an empty tesco plastic bag - probably about 2 empty coffee cups, 2 sandwich wrappers, a couple of bar wrappers and a biscuit packet. As i put it in the bin, a lady asked me if I spoke english - i replied yes - she then showed me her badge and told me she was a litter warden. She asked me a lot of questions about where I was working, what time did i take my breaks etc...she asked "do you always put your rubbish in the bin?" I replied yes i do. She then asked me if I could ask the site foreman to make the lads on site aware that there was a public bin there, and could they stop throwing it on the ground or fines would be issued to the culprits.

She didn't seem too concerned that we were using the bin - more the fact that people were not using it...

Fred Swanson · 30-07-2014 6:52pm

This post has been deleted.

Little CuChulainn · 30-07-2014 7:01pm

mfceiling wrote: »

She didn't seem too concerned that we were using the bin - more the fact that people were not using it...

Why do you think she was asking you all those questions?

mfceiling · 30-07-2014 9:23pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I did - it was made quite clear to me in the council office in Tallaght that i would end up in court. Turns out it was a traveller family who were caught about a year later - they used to drive the roads on a sunday night to dump in other peoples bins. Never got my €80 refunded!!

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Why do you think she was asking you all those questions?

She asked me because the lane we used to park on was filthy with rubbish. A lot of it seemed to be fly tipped but some of it was lazy feckers who used to wind down their windows and throw their lunch rubbish on the ground. She told me that the reason she asked me if I spoke english, was that she caught a couple of foreign lads who had thrown stuff from their window - they refused or didn't understand her questions and went back to work. She said she couldn't do much as they had a foreign registered vehicle and wouldn't/couldn't enter into dialogue with her. This was back in 2009.

P_1 · 31-07-2014 12:58am

Murray007 wrote: »

OP don't assume that the person who reported you will not go to court or that there isn't other evidence to prove the deed.

I travel for work, drink bottles of water and eat the odd sandwich in the car. No issue with two or three items of wrapping in a public bin but cleaning out your car into a bag and disposing of it in a single street bin is disposing of domestic rubbish, there doesn't need to be a mistaken belief that it is rubbish from your house. It is domestic rubbish from your car. What else would it be, it's not industrial rubbish, it not a wrapper from a sandwich and coke that you just had for lunch in the car. It is a bag of your domestic rubbish.

Yes but what's the difference between throwing your empty bottle and sandwich wrapper in the bin each day and throwing a weeks worth of them into the bin at the end of the week?

OP if you don't mind me asking, what was in the bag that you put into the bin?

Going Forward · 31-07-2014 9:38am

Murray007 wrote: »

OP don't assume that the person who reported you will not go to court or that there isn't other evidence to prove the deed.

I travel for work, drink bottles of water and eat the odd sandwich in the car. No issue with two or three items of wrapping in a public bin but cleaning out your car into a bag and disposing of it in a single street bin is disposing of domestic rubbish, there doesn't need to be a mistaken belief that it is rubbish from your house. It is domestic rubbish from your car. What else would it be, it's not industrial rubbish, it not a wrapper from a sandwich and coke that you just had for lunch in the car. It is a bag of your domestic rubbish.

:rolleyes:

It's not domestic. He's not domiciled in the car.

nuac · 31-07-2014 10:26am

userod wrote: »

It will never go to court.

If it does make it to court by some strange miracle, you probably wouldn't even have to go, the judge will strike it out in your absence. You have nothing to prove.

It may go to court. If so and if you are convicted the max fine could be €3,000.

Before any summons is issued you would usually get a letter from the council or the council solicitor. You should reply to that setting out your case.

You should have brought that bag home to your own bin.

Murray007 · 31-07-2014 1:20pm

Going Forward wrote: »

:rolleyes:

It's not domestic. He's not domiciled in the car.

Domicile has got nothing to do with classification of waste. It is domestic, commercial, industrial or medical waste.

Car rubbish is clearly domestic :rolleyes:

Murray007 · 31-07-2014 1:22pm

P_1 wrote: »

Yes but what's the difference between throwing your empty bottle and sandwich wrapper in the bin each day and throwing a weeks worth of them into the bin at the end of the week?

OP if you don't mind me asking, what was in the bag that you put into the bin?

There is a difference. One fills up a street bin whereas the other is passerby use of many bins over a number of days which is their intended function.

billie1b · 31-07-2014 1:38pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

First of all the bins for dog doo are specifically just for that dog doo. If you reached the dog doo bin, with you bag of doggy doo, and found that it was full of rubbish from some dudes car, and you couldn't fut your dog doo in , what would you do?
Second, the bin at the petrol station belongs to the petrol station, not the taxpayer. Its up to the petrol station to tell you to stop filling their bins with your rubbish. Nobody here gives a damn about the petrol station bin.
Thirdly, the council litter bins are for "incidentals" . I'm walking along. I take 20 Rothman out of my pocket. I pull of the cellophane, open the lid and remove the silver foil. Then I waste a match lighting my fag. Do I throw the cellophane the foil and the match down at my feet? No! I put them in the litter bin! Behind me a woman has bought two kids two choc ices. She pulls of the wrappers and hands the ices to the kids. Throw the wrappers on the floor? No! Put them in the bin.
Take your bag of car rubbish home, like everybody else.

Ok so if I walk out of a local shop with a choc ice, sit into my car with it, open it and eat it in the comfort of my car, then take out my cigarettes and open the packet, have one and then finish a bottle of coke I had, according to you if I get back out of the car and use the public bins provided to dispose of my rubbish its an offence and i'm a knack bag for using the public bin but if I walked out of the shop and did all of this standing outside and then used the bin, thats ok cause it didn't go near my car. You're unbelievable or just winding people up, I regulary eat lunch in my car whilst driving, the first bin I come to I dispose of it, thats what they are for!

Going Forward · 01-08-2014 10:23am

Murray007 wrote: »

Domicile has got nothing to do with classification of waste. It is domestic, commercial, industrial or medical waste.

Car rubbish is clearly domestic :rolleyes:

So it's household waste then on that logic, yet it didn't come out of a house. ......:rolleyes:

Going Forward · 01-08-2014 10:44am

Murray007 wrote: »

There is a difference. One fills up a street bin whereas the other is passerby use of many bins over a number of days which is their intended function.

The physical design of the opening of a street bin dictates what can be binned.

If you can physically fit your bag of rubbish into it, then you are using it for it's intended purpose.

Bin designs were of course changed over the years to prevent large bags being deposited.

Would a tourist be subject to the same high handedness as the OP? Given the same fine?

I doubt it, even though the OP probably actually pays for his bins to be collected, yet you won't allow him to use the public bin in this instance. Strange.

PizzamanIRL · 01-08-2014 10:50am

So if I know the reg of someone who I dislike, I can ring up and report them for littering and they'll get a fine?

What a great system.

andreac · 01-08-2014 10:53am

Just little update, I contacted the council who sent me the fine and enquired about appealing it. The lady gave me details of who to send in the appeal to, so I have done that. Suppose I just have to wait now and see what they come back with.

Will keep you all posted and thank you for all of the advice. Didn't envisage the thread going to 10 pages..:o

Jawgap · 01-08-2014 11:00am

andreac wrote: »

Just little update, I contacted the council who sent me the fine and enquired about appealing it. The lady gave me details of who to send in the appeal to, so I have done that. Suppose I just have to wait now and see what they come back with.

Will keep you all posted and thank you for all of the advice. Didn't envisage the thread going to 10 pages..:o

Sincerest good luck.

Fred Swanson · 01-08-2014 11:15am

This post has been deleted.

deandean · 01-08-2014 11:18am

OP if this is of any help to you: I was having a think about your situation and here are my IANAL thoughts:

I think there would be a fairly broad agreement that 'domestic rubbish' is the type of stuff you find in your wheelie bin. That is packaging, food, broken items, etc etc from your domicile (your house).

In your case you bought foodstuff from shops. You ate & drank it in your car. You make sure to dispose of the packaging in a proper manner. Yours was not 'domestic rubbish'. It never entered or left your domicile.

Maybe it could be called 'vehicular rubbish'!

But by the nature in which you came by it and disposed of it, it was rubbish generated when you are out & about and it was appropriate for you to dispose of it away from your house.

Best of luck!

andreac · 26-08-2014 4:35pm

Quick update on this. I decided to draft up a letter of appeal and send it to them, which i did. They came back with the following, If i send in proof of refuse collection in my housing estate around that date, they will consider my appeal.

Will keep you posted!!

Litter fine, but i didnt litter??

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