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Dispute resolution by jury?

  • 21-07-2014 11:37am
    #1
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭


    Was just reading through some of the dispute resolution threads and observing decision making I just cannot understand. For example, it has been pointed out that the CMOD has made a mistake and no action, and then I read that someone is getting their ban upheld for insulting corporations (banks). and an idea popped into my head so I thought I'd throw it out there






    Probably unworkable and/or undesirable but the idea is that 3 anonymous, regular users decide as a jury the merits of an appeal with the CMODs/Admins acting as the judge.
    Post edited by Shield on


Comments

  • #2
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,496 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Probably unworkable and/or undesirable but the idea is that 3 anonymous, regular users decide as a jury the merits of an appeal with the CMODs/Admins acting as the judge.

    I can't for the life of me imagine how this would be better than the current system. Could you expand on why this could be a better idea?


  • #3
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,708 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Was just reading through some of the dispute resolution threads and observing decision making I just cannot understand. For example, it has been pointed out that the CMOD has made a mistake and no action, and then I read that someone is getting their ban upheld for insulting corporations (banks). and an idea popped into my head so I thought I'd throw it out there



    Probably unworkable and/or undesirable but the idea is that 3 anonymous, regular users decide as a jury the merits of an appeal with the CMODs/Admins acting as the judge.

    I would imagine it could be a knightmare for the mods/cMods/Admins to handle.

    And would it be any active account? would there be postcount minimum? Must they be active in the forum that the DRP thread pertains to? How would it work in a forum with a relatively small pool of regular posters?

    How do you handle the delay in response inflating drastically due to selected users not being available or turning down "jury duty"?

    How would posters be assured they weren't shafted by a trio of posters that have strong bias against the OP of the appeal thread as there is no transparency?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #4
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    LordChessington wrote: »
    I can't for the life of me imagine how this would be better than the current system. Could you expand on why this could be a better idea?
    http://www.lawteacher.net/criminal-law/essays/the-jury-is-an-essential-part-of-the-legal-system-law-essay.php


  • #5
    OldGoat
    Registered Users Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭OldGoat


    "Regular" users don't have access to the review tools available to mods, cmods and admin. That would require making all of a users posts, deleted posts, edited posts and possibly even the users PM's being made public.
    It's an unworkable idea.

    3 mods might be a better idea...but sure isn't that what you already get with the mod/cmod/admin hierarchy in the DRP?

    I'm older than Minecraft goats.



  • #6
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    SW wrote: »
    I would imagine it could be a knightmare for the mods/cMods/Admins to handle.

    And would it be any active account? would there be postcount minimum? Must they be active in the forum that the DRP thread pertains to? How would it work in a forum with a relatively small pool of regular posters?

    How do you handle the delay in response inflating drastically due to selected users not being available or turning down "jury duty"?

    How would posters be assured they weren't shafted by a trio of posters that have strong bias against the OP of the appeal thread as there is no transparency?
    I've had dispute resolution threads open for over a month. I suppose the easiest way would be for people to apply to be put on a list and then they are randomly chosen from this list.


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  • #7
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    OldGoat wrote: »
    "Regular" users don't have access to the review tools available to mods, cmods and admin. That would require making all of a users posts, deleted posts, edited posts and possibly even the users PM's being made public.
    It's an unworkable idea.

    3 mods might be a better idea...but sure isn't that what you already get with the mod/cmod/admin hierarchy in the DRP?
    Right, but the mod lays out their case using all these tools and the banned poster lays out their defense and the jury ask questions where needs be.


  • #8
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,708 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I've had dispute resolution threads open for over a month. I suppose the easiest way would be for people to apply to be put on a list and then they are randomly chosen from this list.

    But surely this list would be subject to some level of quality control since they're essentially being deputised into the moderating mechanism?

    Who is to be responsible for reviewing all the users and maintaining the list?

    Who will have oversight for making sure no prejudiced posters are selected against the DRP OP? That's a pretty hefty workload to introduce for whomever gets lumbered with it.

    How does this improve the DRP system? what do 3 non-mods bring to the discussion that is lacking?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #9
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,216 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Different forums have different rules.
    Poster history must be taken into account.
    Previous PMs between mods and posters have to be taken into account.
    Discussions about the poster in dedicated mod forums must be taken into account.
    Deleted or edited posts have to be taken into account.

    To have to collate and present all this information to three regular posters takes a lot of time and effort, would require more time and effort for the three posters to read over and consider, and if the ban/infraction was upheld, it'd likely end up going to an Admin review anyway which makes the whole thing pointless.

    Not only that, but CMods and Admin are chosen because it's considered that they're fair, reasonable and level-headed. What if one of the posters who volunteers to be on this jury was previously actioned by the mod involved? Do we then need to spend even more time vetting everyone on each jury to see who should do it?

    Sorry, but most bans would be up before all that is completed, and there's no benefit over the existing system.


  • #10
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,496 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    http://www.lawteacher.net/criminal-law/essays/the-jury-is-an-essential-part-of-the-legal-system-law-essay.php

    I know what a jury is. You still didn't answer my question.


  • #11
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    A jury implies boards is a democracy. It's not. Boards is a dictatorship that allows a few people more power than the rest of us.


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  • #12
    IITYWYBMAD
    Registered Users Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭IITYWYBMAD


    ken wrote: »
    A jury implies boards is a democracy.
    What? It implies nothing of the sort...it's not a bad idea, but has been pointed out. Probably unworkable.


  • #13
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    There's a reason cases often take so long to go before a real court.

    There's no way it's feasible for a mod/cat/admin to devote all the time necessary to transcribing everything. DRP's are time consuming. Often times we're so swamped with stuff we don't even get to participate sometimes. Yet, you're proposing adding even more workload on it. Nobody here gets paid for this stuff and some DRP, even the before the DRP begins, can be a massive time sink.

    That said, I do think it's possible that 3 random mods could be chosen for the first step pre cat mod, pre admin. See how that works? I dunno. It still seems a tad unnecessary though.


  • #14
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,856 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Turtwig wrote: »
    That said, I do think it's possible that 3 random mods could be chosen for the first step pre cat mod, pre admin. See how that works? I dunno. It still seems a tad unnecessary though.

    I completely disagree with some of the things I see posters get carded/banned for in certain fora. I wouldn't be happy to have to deal with a DRP thread brought about by a charter that I find bizarre.


  • #15
    LoLth
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 10,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭LoLth


    also it would come down to which user is better at arguing their interpretation of the charter/rules instead of mods enforcing the existing charter/rules. With the jury not the ones that have the headache of a troll or timesink being re-released into the forum when he has exasperated them so much they just overturn the ban/infraction to be done with the process.

    user juries sound like a good idea but ultimately, would fail because of inconsistencies and with each DRP victory for a plaintiff a precedent would be set which would slowly lower the threshold or change the spirit of the rule until it really doesn't matter anymore.

    I'm not saying that doesn't happen with the current system but at least the degradation is a slower process.

    Its an interesting idea but it opens more possibilities for failing than the current system imho.


  • #16
    Insect Overlord
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 30,856 Mod ✭✭✭✭Insect Overlord


    Also, wasn't the current DRP put together because the old school Feedback trial by popularity was a (highly entertaining) calamity?


  • #17
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    The system only works when you get the result you want. Unless you get that, it'll just be somebody else who has got it wrong.


  • #18
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,461 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    ken wrote: »
    A jury implies boards is a democracy. It's not. Boards is a dictatorship that allows a few people more power than the rest of us.

    if this is what you think then perhaps you should create your own message board and see if you can do better then boards.ie


  • #19
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Loads of decisions don't get to DRP after discussion with the user via pm. Often the mod comes to an amicable compromise, helps if the user is level headed and courteous.

    The significant majority of DRP cases look pretty straight forward to me. Also many forums have mod sub forums and if a decision is too harsh/light other mods will give feedback. Plus we've reported posts to keep us on our toes!

    Tbh I think the current system is fair enough, and C-Mods and Admins do put the work on both sides of the issue and try to be fair on the user and mods. The vast majority of mods don't really want to be handing out cards and bans either.

    But as Dades says, if we set up this new jury, it wouldn't be long for the cries that they are biased and they are becoming institutionalised. Some people are never, ever wrong!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #20
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    Cabaal wrote: »
    if this is what you think then perhaps you should create your own message board and see if you can do better then boards.ie

    I didn't mean it in a bad way. I respect the set up that boards has. I just hate when people that have loads of interactions with mods,cmods and admins and get shot down every single time try to change the system to something they want.


  • #21
    Dav
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,840 ✭✭✭Dav


    ken is absolutely correct, and we are not going to have DRP operated by Jury.

    I'm closing this now, it's not up for discussion.


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