Does your local Garda no longer seem interested? Maybe this is why.

Potential-Monke · 22-10-2014 2:19am #1

Garda couple’s attackers set to avoid jail

Four men who assaulted an off-duty garda couple look set to escape being sent to jail.
Judge Rory MacCabe indicated that he would sentence each of the four men to a combination of suspended sentences and periods of community service, if they were found suitable for community service.
After these sentences were indicated by the judge, counsel for the prosecution told Judge MacCabe that the Director of Public Prosecutions was still in favour of imposing custodial sentences on the men, but the Judge said he was happy to uphold his original judgements.

David Leonard then assaulted Ms Sheehan, knocking her to the ground and Mr Conneally was subsequently kicked on the ground as he attempted to pick up Ms Sheehan.
The court heard that Mr Conneally was knocked unconscious, received three cuts to his forehead, an injury over his right eye, severe bruising to his jaw and required a total of eleven stitches. He also has to wear glasses permanently since the attack, due to the damage to his right eye.
In the victim-impact statement from Ms Sheehan, read out in court by Mr Conneally, Ms Sheehan said the group followed the couple after they left the nightclub to go home and started shouting, ‘garda scumbags’, ‘garda tramp’ and ‘Conneally you’re not so big now without the blue uniform’.
Ms Sheehan said that after the attack she found her partner in a doorway unconscious and covered in blood. Ms Sheehan said she returned to work two months after the attack and was ‘quite scared mentally and physically’. She added that she was now ‘very anxious’ about dealing with public order offences while on duty and has been told by a surgeon that she might not recover from an injury to her back caused by the attack.
In his statement, Mr Conneally said the group of males were known to him on the night, from his time as a garda in Sligo. Mr Conneally said that as a result of the attack he suffered headaches and blurred vision, and he noted that his eyesight had not recovered, requiring him to depend on glasses. He said he too finds it difficult to deal with public-order offences and that the couple are fearful of going out in Charlestown since the attack.

Something has to be done about the Judiciary in this country. It's an absolute disgrace that someone who causes permanent, irreversible damage to an off duty Garda, for being a Garda, can even indicate that no custodial sentence can be imposed. I thought attacks on Emergency Personnel was supposed to carry higher sentences. Where's the incentive to work if the state doesn't protect those who protect others? I don't like saying it, but i wish that Judge would get attacked the same way and then see how he feels when another Judge indicates that the perpetrators would likely escape a custodial sentence.

I know no sentence has been given yet, but a Judge would hardly indicate what he has and then change his mind. And i sincerely hope that the DPP will appeal the leniency if no custodial sentence is imposed. Bloody disgrace of a country.

Zambia · 22-10-2014 8:55am

What message does that send to the community. Words fail me.

The J Stands for Jay · 22-10-2014 9:00am

I thought we still had the death penalty on the books for murdering a guard?

So it seems to be:
Kill a guard: get killed
Almost kill a guard: pick up some litter

kub · 22-10-2014 9:07am

The justice system in this country has a vested interest in re offenders. The criminals go in, get slapped on the wrist then back out to re offend. Why is this, because no matter how many times these criminals commit offences it does not cost them a brass cent in legal fees. The kind tax payer does that

Within the next short while we will have a new batch of Gardaí out of Templemore, they will be full of enthusiasm until they start experiencing the court rooms up and down this joke of a country.

TheNog · 22-10-2014 9:33am

I wish I could say that is an unbelievable judgement but I can't.

I wonder if the court Garda was withdrawn from Judge MacCabe's court would he kick up?

Zambia · 22-10-2014 9:41am

Even without the garda aspect it was a pre mediated prolonged attack on a couple on a night out.

Seriously ffs who does that? maybe the judge should consult his manis street preachers.
"If you tolerate this ,,,?"

Zambia · 22-10-2014 9:55am

TheNog wrote: »

I wish I could say that is an unbelievable judgement but I can't.

I wonder if the court Garda was withdrawn from Judge MacCabe's court would he kick up?

What's a court garda?

chrysagon · 22-10-2014 9:57am

no deterrent in this country.. i dont care if theres no room in mountjoy.. put 10 in a cell... if they didnt break the law they wouldnt be there

TheNog · 22-10-2014 10:09am

Zambia wrote: »

What's a court garda?

A Garda assigned to protect the judge when entering/leaving the court and to deal with any public order issues that may arise within the court.

horsebox7 · 22-10-2014 10:37am

Zealous reform of the justice system overall is badly needed. I really do feel for these victims who justice has escaped. I agree that demotivation among gards is understandable in situations like this but then where does that leave the general public who have to engage with the gards? Can the general public then lower their service expectations because of this demotivation? Don't get me wrong I deplore what has happened here but I think demotivation among workers in any profession that serves the public is something that needs to be addressed.

jbkenn · 22-10-2014 12:11pm

McGaggs wrote: »

I thought we still had the death penalty on the books for murdering a guard?

So it seems to be:
Kill a guard: get killed
Almost kill a guard: pick up some litter

Death penalty is abolished, constitutional amendment passed by referendum in 2001 prohibits reintroduction of the death penalty, even during a state of emergency or war

desertcircus · 22-10-2014 12:13pm

Another thread filled with people demanding harsher penalties, another thread devoid of evidence that harsher penalties do any good.

shruikan2553 · 22-10-2014 12:16pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Another thread filled with people demanding harsher penalties, another thread devoid of evidence that harsher penalties do any good.

People tend to prefer it if violent criminals are prevented from being violent

Viper_JB · 22-10-2014 12:18pm

You could bet if it were a politician or a judge that was a assaulted it would be a different story when it came to sentencing...

kippy · 22-10-2014 12:22pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Another thread filled with people demanding harsher penalties, another thread devoid of evidence that harsher penalties do any good.

Well, what do you suggest?

There HAVE to be harsh penalties in place, at the very least, for assaults on emergency services. Simple as that.

horsebox7 · 22-10-2014 12:24pm

It would appear that the punishment in this case is significantly disproportionate to the crime. So much for the saying "do the crime do the time". The punishment sends out a message to Irish society that such violence could potentaially be dealt by the justice system in a very lenient manner with zero repercussions. Unfortunately without public pressure on the justice system the status quo will remain firmly intact.

jbkenn · 22-10-2014 12:28pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Another thread filled with people demanding harsher penalties, another thread devoid of evidence that harsher penalties do any good.

When you have been a victim of crime, come back and pontificate about sentencing.

Farmer Pudsey · 22-10-2014 12:41pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Another thread filled with people demanding harsher penalties, another thread devoid of evidence that harsher penalties do any good.

Well we see that leniency over last twenty years has not resulted in a reduction in crime. Punishment has to be a deterrent. However in general judges and the legal profession have not got to deal with the legacy they leave behind.

The law is now a parasite on the country in general. It is sucking the life out of the economy. In the longterm at some stage we will have a sea of change that may well make even present so calledharsh sentances seem lenient.

Any garda off duty that is attacked because he/she is a guard, such a crime should carry a serious deterrent. Such a deterrent should be a custodial sentance. Physical attacks in general should be punished harshly. In thsi case a 2 year in gaol might deter such an action again

22-10-2014 12:41pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Another thread filled with people demanding harsher penalties, another thread devoid of evidence that harsher penalties do any good.

We expect something more than non custodial sentencing for people who pick out two off duty Gardaí who are minding their own business while socialising. And for a gang to then attack these Gardaí because of their jobs. And for knocking one of them unconscious and leaving one of them with a condition for life.

Gardaí should be able to socialise without having to be worried for their personal safety or at least know that if targeted because they do that job that the offender will be dealt with.

desertcircus · 22-10-2014 12:44pm

jbkenn wrote: »

When you have been a victim of crime, come back and pontificate about sentencing.

I have been a victim of crime. But that's irrelevant: the entire structure of the Western legal code is based upon impartiality, which you seem to think is wrong. If you have a basis for this position, I'm all ears, but you don't get to simply assert something in direct contradiction of the accumulated centuries of jurisprudence and legal precedent without making a case for it.

That aside, does anyone have any evidence that harsher sentences reduce crime? It's not a weird question: if you think we should be reducing crime, then it's a perfectly legitimate question.

Dr Turk Turkelton · 22-10-2014 12:48pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Another thread filled with people demanding harsher penalties, another thread devoid of evidence that harsher penalties do any good.

Well letting the (insert expletive here)stay out of jail with multiple convictions sure isn't doing a whole lot of good.
Maybe it's time to use the stick rather than the carrot.

kippy · 22-10-2014 12:58pm

desertcircus wrote: »

I have been a victim of crime. But that's irrelevant: the entire structure of the Western legal code is based upon impartiality, which you seem to think is wrong. If you have a basis for this position, I'm all ears, but you don't get to simply assert something in direct contradiction of the accumulated centuries of jurisprudence and legal precedent without making a case for it.

That aside, does anyone have any evidence that harsher sentences reduce crime? It's not a weird question: if you think we should be reducing crime, then it's a perfectly legitimate question.

We've hardly a system at present where guilty people are "punished".
It's pretty much a holiday camp in there for anyone who is "locked up" and sentencing is in essence a joke.

Crimes against the person, such as the one here should be treated far more harshly.
At the moment the sentences aren't harsh enough.

Evidence for harsher sentences reducing crime? Lock up people longer and they sure as hell wont be committing any crimes........

desertcircus · 22-10-2014 1:01pm

kippy wrote: »

We've hardly a system at present where guilty people are "punished".
It's pretty much a holiday camp in there for anyone who is "locked up" and sentencing is in essence a joke.

Crimes against the person, such as the one here should be treated far more harshly.
At the moment the sentences aren't harsh enough.

Evidence for harsher sentences reducing crime? Lock up people longer and they sure as hell wont be committing any crimes........

If there's a causal link between harsher sentences and fewer crimes, then there should be hard statistical evidence. The total lack of any on this thread so far leads me to suspect that harsh sentences aren't the solution people tend to think.

Zambia · 22-10-2014 1:02pm

desertcircus wrote: »

I have been a victim of crime. But that's irrelevant: the entire structure of the Western legal code is based upon impartiality, which you seem to think is wrong. If you have a basis for this position, I'm all ears, but you don't get to simply assert something in direct contradiction of the accumulated centuries of jurisprudence and legal precedent without making a case for it.

That aside, does anyone have any evidence that harsher sentences reduce crime? It's not a weird question: if you think we should be reducing crime, then it's a perfectly legitimate question.

if this was your brother or sister would you believe this was a fair sentence indication?

kippy · 22-10-2014 1:12pm

desertcircus wrote: »

If there's a causal link between harsher sentences and fewer crimes, then there should be hard statistical evidence. The total lack of any on this thread so far leads me to suspect that harsh sentences aren't the solution people tend to think.

Here's the scenario.

Guy A beats up a cop. It's his 20th offence. He has been in and out of prison under the current system of easy going prisons, light sentencing and "PC Justice". He'll be out again in no time as a reformed character to offend again, having been housed at the expense of the state.

In the alternative universe.
Guy A commits first offence of robbing a house. Guy A gets locked up for 10 years. Guy A cannot commit 19 more offences for at least 10 years, If he commits again once he gets out, hit him with another 10 years. 10 more years crime free from the guy.

Everyone else thinks twice about the law.

Harsher sentencing in THAT case leads to a direct reduction in crime.

Do you need more statistics?

Possible there should be a bit of leeway on a first offence once it is not a violent crime and indeed standard attempts to "reform" the guy while in jail. Reduce some of the mandatory sentencing for minor crimes to community service to free up jail beds for the serious criminals.

shruikan2553 · 22-10-2014 1:14pm

desertcircus wrote: »

If there's a causal link between harsher sentences and fewer crimes, then there should be hard statistical evidence. The total lack of any on this thread so far leads me to suspect that harsh sentences aren't the solution people tend to think.

Its a bit harder to be attacked by someone with 60 previous convictions if they are in prison.

vicwatson · 22-10-2014 1:17pm

We need the chain gang. Loads of work to be done around the place, and these thugs could it do it for free. It's a no brainer really (oh no here come the civil liberties commissioners runnnnnnnnnnnnnn)

PaddyTheNth · 22-10-2014 1:43pm

desertcircus wrote: »

Another thread filled with people demanding harsher penalties, another thread devoid of evidence that harsher penalties do any good.

As far as I'm aware you are correct.

Sweden as far as I remember has significantly reduced sentencing for many crimes in the last generation or so and believe they are having success with preventing reoffending, but they have a massive complementary rehabilitation program.

In 2010 they actually increased the severity of sentencing for serious violent crime (I don't have the knowledge to understand whether this offence would fall in this category - in my uninformed opinion it should).

Link

I think it's disgraceful that the perpetrators of this assault are free to walk around and immediately offend again. There has to be some measure of a deterrent in sentencing.

AngeGal · 22-10-2014 1:52pm

desertcircus wrote: »

That aside, does anyone have any evidence that harsher sentences reduce crime? It's not a weird question: if you think we should be reducing crime, then it's a perfectly legitimate question.

It's irrelevant. Yes the goal of sentencing is partly punishment and partly rehabilitation (in theory but it seldom seems to work in practice) but for an attack such as this, the punishment of community feckin service and probation is insufficient. Those thugs need to serve time in jail.

from_atozinc · 22-10-2014 1:53pm

what a fookin disgrace. makes my blood boil.

Carlos Orange · 22-10-2014 1:57pm

The sentencing I see reported on a fairly regular basis makes me rethink my reaction to three strikes laws.

Does your local Garda no longer seem interested? Maybe this is why.

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