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Israeli apartheid

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13567…28

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  • Options
    #62
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    I also support there being a state of Israel, but I also support a free state of Palestine. Israel now is doing to the Palestinians, what you complain was done to the Jews by others, does that make it right?
    It's the victim mentality. Any criticism is irrationally considered out of bounds and rooted in anti-Semitism.


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    #63
    Pete M.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Pete M.


    Sykes wrote: »
    Shame on us Pete. :

    Fair play to you, owning up are we?

    No, I ain't neutral in this at all.

    I'm not going to even bother getting stuck into anything with the likes of you, tis pointless and frustrating trying to have a rational debate with someone who has as much compassion as a prison guard in Sobibor....

    Who is the bravest hero btw?

    Not the auld apologists anyway, that's for sure....


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    #64
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    taconnol wrote: »
    So? I am of Viking origin, as are many Irish people. Do we, collectively, have rights to any land in Scandinavia upon which we can resurrect the Viking "nation"? No.

    You're missing a glaring point. Those countries are established. There was no 'palestinian' country. It was a British mandate. The UN (league of nations) wanted the Brits to set up an Israeli nation. The Brits didn't and handed the mandate to the UN. The UN had a vote and decided to split the land for both Jews and Arabs. The Jews agreed, the Arabs refused and went to war - and lost.

    It's the simple. The Arabs need to understand that they REFUSED the partition of land that was not theirs to refuse. They went to war and lost even more land.

    The irony is of course that the Arabs are now fighting for less land than they would have got in the partition (which was 78%)

    Survival? If you're going to discuss this, then be honest about the facts. The creation of a Zionist state never had anything to do with survival.

    You need to read up on Theodor Herzl and his motivation for the Zionist movement which he pretty much headed. You should read about the incident which lead him to say "we need our own homeland"

    Then you might understand.
    Because zionism only arose in the 18th century - or are you going to rewrite that part of history as well?

    Jewish connection to Israel did not start with Zionism, that's the mistake you're making. Zionism was merely the organised movement that was started to achieve a country in Israel and its development.
    Define country - no doubt you'll produce a narrow definition that suits your own argument.

    Well, it would help if you at least governed an area of land? the 'palestinians' didn't.

    They didn't have a capital, a government, a country, an independent currency, culture or anything which would indicate to a separate people and a country.

    They had villages on land which was controlled by another power - the same goes for the Jews post-Romans.

    Strange how many people like to go back in history but only to certain points that suit them.


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    #65
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Sykes wrote: »

    Can I remind you that we the allies (I don't mean Ireland of course, they were on the Nazi side)

    Ok now I know you are just trying to stir things up. Pretty pathetic, how you can say a neutral country was on the Nazi side. Especially when so many of it's citizen fought in the British army at the time.


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    #66
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sykes wrote: »
    The point being that the 'palestinians' and their supporters claim

    Any chance you could halt from using Palestinians in quotation marks? It's quite despicable. You are not in a position to say who is and who isn't a people. The Palestinians are a people, which is recognised by the United Nations. As is their land, which is also recognised by the United Nations in parts to be illegally occupied by Israel.

    All the other nonsense you posted is irrelevant in the bigger picture. The fact remains that Palestinians have been evicted from their homes, where Israeli soldiers have enabled Israeli settlers to create illegal settlements at the expense of the Palestinian people. This is also documented and accepted widely by all nations around the world - including the United States, Israel's largest ally.


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    #67
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    Pete M. wrote: »

    I'm not going to even bother getting stuck into anything with the likes of you, tis pointless and frustrating trying to have a rational debate with someone who has as much compassion as a prison guard in Sobibor....


    Glad to see that you didn't miss an opportunity to use the Nazi comparisin. A favourite trick of the anti-semites, according to the EU guidelines on anti-semitism.


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    #68
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sykes wrote: »
    [/b]

    Glad to see that you didn't miss an opportunity to use the Nazi comparisin. A favourite trick of the anti-semites, according to the EU guidelines on anti-semitism.

    Do you feel that everyone who criticises Israel does so because they are anti-semites?


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    #69
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Sykes wrote: »
    [/b]

    Glad to see that you didn't miss an opportunity to use the Nazi comparisin. A favourite trick of the anti-semites, according to the EU guidelines on anti-semitism.

    Think you'll find you were the first to use Nazi, as in Ireland was on the Nazi's side, how pathetic, and then everything of course has to be anti-Semitic because it doesn't agree with you. The usual device used when losing an argument, you are all being anti-Semitic. You seem to have a martyr complex. Can I ask why you live in Britain if you feel so strongly about these issues of Israel being both a people and a state, why do you not live in Israel?


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    #70
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Sykes wrote: »
    You're missing a glaring point. Those countries are established. There was no 'palestinian' country. It was a British mandate.
    Define "established". The first mention of Palestine was somewhere around the 5th century. Again, you're forgetting that the concept of a nation has only existed since the 18th century.
    Sykes wrote: »
    Jewish connection to Israel did not start with Zionism, that's the mistake you're making. Zionism was merely the organised movement that was started to achieve a country in Israel and its development.
    So why did they consider Uganda if Israel was so central to their idea? And where is your evidence that Jews have wanted a homeland down through the ages? And is the simple desire of a homeland your justification for them having the right to one? And even if their desire for a homeland is justified through some other factor, does that warrant throwing people who are already on the land off it, just to satisfy this desire? That is the crux of the matter. It would have been great if the UN had been able to conjure up some extra land out of the ocean for Israel and everyone would have gotten what they wanted but the reality was that it had to be taken from someone else.
    Sykes wrote: »
    Well, it would help if you at least governed an area of land? the 'palestinians' didn't.

    They didn't have a capital, a government, a country, an independent currency, culture or anything which would indicate to a separate people and a country.
    Who are you to argue that this does not constitute a nation? What universal definition of a nation are you using and where are you getting it from? Do you understand the short history of nationalism and national identity? It would appear you want to project back this concept to before it existed in the late 1800s yet deny the Palestinians the same.
    Sykes wrote: »
    Strange how many people like to go back in history but only to certain points that suit them.
    Oh how amusingly ironic.


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    #71
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Any chance you could halt from using Palestinians in quotation marks? It's quote despicable.

    Not a chance I'm afraid. Just as I would say 'tooth fairy' or 'ghosts'.

    They are Arabs. There has never been a 'palestinian' country. Therefore I'm not prepared to use the politically-motivated made up name of 'palestinians'. It's a fabrication and I won't be party to it.

    In fact it was Jews who were originally referred to as 'Palestinians'

    Other people agree with me:

    "There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."
    Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937


    "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not"
    Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946



    The fact remains.....

    ....In your head


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    #72
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Sykes wrote: »

    "There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it."
    Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937


    "There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not"
    Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946



    what authoritative sources you have.
    According to yourself the Romans created Palestine and how come there are maps of ancient Palestine?

    http://images.google.ie/images?hl=en&safe=off&num=50&newwindow=1&q=ancient+palestine&oq=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=NSZ7S_usBo_20gSgrvHNBg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=4&ved=0CCsQsAQwAw


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    #73
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Do you feel that everyone who criticises Israel does so because they are anti-semites?

    Not all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, but much of it is rooted in anti-semitism.

    Here are the EU guidelines. You might see yourself in there.

    • Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
    • Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective - such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
    • Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non *Jews.
    • Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
    • Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
    • Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
    Examples of the ways in which antisemitism manifests itself with regard to the state of Israel taking into account the overall context could include:

    • Denying the Jewish people their right to self* determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.
    • Applying double standards by requiring of it a behaviour not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
    • Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
    • Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
    • Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.


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    #74
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sykes wrote: »
    Not a chance I'm afraid. Just as I would say 'tooth fairy' or 'ghosts'.

    You do realise how ridiculous your comments appear, right?
    Sykes wrote: »
    They are Arabs. There has never been a 'palestinian' country. Therefore I'm not prepared to use the politically-motivated made up name of 'palestinians'. It's a fabrication and I won't be party to it.

    They are Palestinians, and recognised as such by the United Nations. I'm not sure how clearer I can be on this matter.


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    #75
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sykes wrote: »
    Not all criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, but much of it is rooted in anti-semitism.

    You are severely misguided. I feel genuinely sorry for your delusions of grandeur.


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    #76
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

    what do you call the justification of killing Palestinians?

    Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non *Jews.

    Just like you accuse the Palestinians of being responsible for terrorists actions

    Denying the Jewish people their right to self* determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour.

    Like you deny the Palestinians the right to self determination

    Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

    According to you they are the same thing


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    #77
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    dlofnep wrote: »

    They are Palestinians, and recognised as such by the United Nations. I'm not sure how clearer I can be on this matter.

    The UN also thinks Lybia and Syria should chair the Human rights council.

    The UN also defines every 'palestinian' as a refugee, even when born in another country.

    I'm afraid the UN isn't much of an authority on these matters, given that it operates as a shop to buy and sell favours.

    i.e. when African countries needed Arab Oil in the 70's and voted against Israel because of it.

    You should read Chaim Herzog's autobiography. He was Israel's ambassador to the UN. He said he had ambassadors from countries who'd just voted against Israel come up to him and apologise, basically saying they had to for political reasons.

    The UN is dominated by the IOC (Islamic organisation conference) made up of 56 nations. Given they had massive leverage in the 70's particularly with regards to energy, they could get just about any vote through against Israel. Many of the resolutions date back to that time.


    Interesting to have a look at how the UN operates
    http://www.youtube.com/user/HumanRightsUN


    The 'palestinian people' is essentially a political fabrication in order to make claims. It was financed by the petro-dollar.


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    #78
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    This argument is totally pointless. It isn't about history, it's about how humans are being treated today. I don't think any historical or ethnic argument you have, Sykes, can justify what is happening now.


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    #79
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Sykes wrote: »

    I'm afraid the UN isn't much of an authority on these matters, given that it operates as a shop to buy and sell favours.

    Suppose that could be true since the UN created the state of Israel. You can't have it all ways mate, at least try and be consistent. There would be no state of Israel without the UN


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    #80
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    but agree with taconnol, this argument is pointless,

    "there are no so deaf, as those who refuse to hear"

    and nothing justifies the killing and denial of human rights to so many in the modern day


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    #81
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    taconnol wrote: »
    This argument is totally pointless. It isn't about history, it's about how humans are being treated today. I don't think any historical or ethnic argument you have, Sykes, can justify what is happening now.

    Israel is facing a de-legitimisation campaign by Muslims and their supporters (the left wing).

    Trying to break Jewish ties to the land of Israel.

    I'm afraid historical truth is very much a factor in this.

    We had Jews who up until 1929 had lived in Hebron only to be slaughtered and driven out by 'palestinians' - why is that not a factor that the UN or you lot seemed bothered about?

    The Jews were driven out of their homes in East Jerusalem when Jordan annexed it in 1948. Why is it that it's Arab now and considered theirs, when it was taken in war?

    There is a massive double standard.

    There was no 'palestinian people' when Jordan controlled the West Bank. It was only when Israel captured the land that suddenly they sprang up as a 'people'.

    It's ALL about history.

    And if you lot think this is about 'occupation', then you need to have a look at the terrorist attacks that took place against Jews by 'palestinians' before Israel's reestablishment and before the so-called 'occupation'.


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    #82
    hinault
    Registered Users Posts: 5,932 ✭✭✭hinault


    Sykes wrote: »
    Israel is facing a de-legitimisation campaign by Muslims and their supporters (the left wing).

    Trying to break Jewish ties to the land of Israel.

    I'm afraid historical truth is very much a factor in this.

    We had Jews who up until 1929 had lived in Hebron only to be slaughtered and driven out by 'palestinians' - why is that not a factor that the UN or you lot seemed bothered about?

    The Jews were driven out of their homes in East Jerusalem when Jordan annexed it in 1948. Why is it that it's Arab now and considered theirs, when it was taken in war?

    There is a massive double standard.

    There was no 'palestinian people' when Jordan controlled the West Bank. It was only when Israel captured the land that suddenly they sprang up as a 'people'.

    It's ALL about history.

    And if you lot think this is about 'occupation', then you need to have a look at the terrorist attacks that took place against Jews by 'palestinians' before Israel's reestablishment and before the so-called 'occupation'.

    I don't buy this line of "thinking".

    My own view would be that Israel needs to start interacting with it's neighbouting countries, instead of playing their duplicitous games, if it really wishes to survive and prosper.

    It should be noted that since the 1960's, Israel has instigated more wars in the ME than any other ME country.

    History shows that their elitest attitude has brought problems on their heads throughout the centuries.
    Perhaps a change of attitude would ensure a more peaceful future than their tortured past?


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    #83
    Pete M.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭Pete M.


    To me it seems as though Sykes may be a fundamentalist moslem who is pretending to be a sympathiser with Israel in order to make us think some of them are this, unbelievably irrational.

    oh wait, many are....


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    #84
    FoxT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,204 ✭✭✭FoxT


    The Israelis are evil
    vs
    The Palestinians are innocent victims

    argument. Both of the above statements have some merit - but - neither are fully accurate - and - thrashing it out along these lines will not solve anything.


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    #85
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    hinault wrote: »
    I don't buy this line of "thinking".

    My own view would be that Israel needs to start interacting with it's neighbouting countries, instead of playing their duplicitous games, if it really wishes to survive and prosper.

    I agree they need to interact, but I don't agree they're being duplicitous. The ONLY thing stopping Israel being best mates with Lebanon, are the Muslims.

    The Israeli's and Christian Lebanese get on great. Unfortunately Lebanon was hijacked by Iran in the early 80's. Militant Islam is the problem here.

    Israel has no conflict with Iran for example. They were allies against Arab nationalist pre-1979. Iran was terrified of Nasser and his pan-Arabist nationalism.

    Then the Islamists came to town in Iran and that was it. Overnight it was "death to Israel" purely on religious grounds. There is no territorial conflict with Iran. They made themselves an enemy of Israel purely because of religion. They aren't even Arab and don't even share the same branch of Islam as the majority of 'Palestinians.

    It should be noted that since the 1960's, Israel has instigated more wars in the ME than any other ME country.

    Well let's see. Nasser and his crew spent two years prior to 1967 telling the world they were going to destroy Israel and amassed an invasion force, prompting Israel to strike pre-emptively.

    In 1973 the Arabs attacked Israel

    In 1982 Israel finally retaliated after decades of terrorist attacks from Lebanon and invaded.

    I don't quite follow your train of 'thought'.

    History shows that their elitest attitude has brought problems on their heads throughout the centuries.
    Perhaps a change of attitude would ensure a more peaceful future than their tortured past?

    Ah, here we go again. It really is funny how you lot roll your eyes when you're accused of anti-semitism, only to then go on to say that the Jews have brought on their persecution by acting 'elitist'.

    Yes you're right. Half the Jewish race was wiped out and it was their own fault.

    Do you think the Irish were acting a bit 'elitist' which is why we had to kick your arse several times? Maybe because of your 'elitist' attitude, we didn't feel like helping you out too much with the lack of potatoes.

    Maybe the Muslims were being a bit 'elitist' or just acting like twits in Srebrenica?

    Oh what, are you offended? you don't like it when the same is said back to you?


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    #86
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Sykes wrote: »
    Do you think the Irish were acting a bit 'elitist' which is why we had to kick your arse several times? Maybe because of your 'elitist' attitude, we didn't feel like helping you out too much with the lack of potatoes.

    ?

    YAWN, good luck mate am finished making any comments here. Hope you have a nice life, if albeit a deluded one.


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    #87
    Sykes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭Sykes


    IrishTonyO wrote: »
    YAWN, good luck mate am finished making any comments here. Hope you have a nice life, if albeit a deluded one.

    Not nice, is it?

    When your own words against Israel and Jews are turned against you.

    It brings it home how extremist you are.


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    #88
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Do you think the Irish were acting a bit 'elitist' which is why we had to kick your arse several times?

    Kind of hard to be elitist when you live under Penal Laws, now wasn't it?
    Maybe because of your 'elitist' attitude, we didn't feel like helping you out too much with the lack of potatoes.

    Yeah, that must be it. Us paddy's and our superiority complex caused one of the greatest losses of life this part of the globe has ever seen. :rolleyes:


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    #89
    FoxT
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,204 ✭✭✭FoxT


    Palestine was a British Mandate. This means - it was land conquered by the brits. It had been occupied by various nomadic tribes etc prior to that. It was never a recognised state - but it had a native populace. Just like the Red Indians in what is now the USA. Those people were dispossessed by a UN fiat. However that is neither here nor there since the Israelis have ignored UN resolutions whenever it suited them to. The facts are that
    1 - Israel does not have a right to exist
    2 - But, it is to late to do anything about it
    3 - they will continue to bully & oppress to get their way
    4 - The Palestinians have also resorted to evil & inhumane tactics
    5 - nobody who is directly involved seems to have a real desire to achieve peace
    6 - this will run & run as long as the US keeps Israel propped up

    Finally - none of this has anything to do with Religion. Just like in the North of Ireland, religion is a peg used by extremists to hang up the cloaks they use to cover their real motivation - which is a lust for wealth, power or territory, regardless of the human or moral costs.

    I want to make clear that I am not anti-Jewish, or anti-muslim, or anti any other religion. This conflict is not Religious. If it was, both Jews & Muslims would have been able to work it out. It is a secular conflict, and it probably will not be resolved in our lifetimes, or even those of our children.

    -FoxT


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    #90
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    This is going the usual way for Israel threads, so I'll issue the usual warning - calm it down, and don't make it personal, or there will be bannings and infractions galore once the thread has been closed.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


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    #91
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    One of these tiresome anti-israeli threads pops up every now and then but this is by far the worst, the quality of debate on both sides just seems pretty lousy.

    Its not worth wasting any time on beyond what I've said before about the settlements, that they're a huge waste of resources and Israel should disengage from them.


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