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Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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Comments

  • #4532
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    westtip wrote: »
    Indeed O'Mahony needs to decide which party policy he supports; The party he currently represents FG, in government have endorsed and supported TEN-T which will not fund WRC, only SF as a party have the WRC as official party policy with the Western Arc rail line from Derry to Limerick (I know LOL :D) - If O'Mahony has decided to pin his policy thinking in line with Sinn Fein/ West on Track policy thinking he needs to say which party policy he will ally himself to: Sinn Fein or FG. Perhaps he is just about to jump ship?
    Normally you would expect a TD who makes pronouncements against party policy to get his knuckles rapped, but Enda seems to have left him alone, maybe in the knowledge that he will self-destruct come next election anyway.
    I can't really see them pushing Higgins aside in the European race to make way for somebody who isn't any better and who is equally unlikely to take a seat, so maybe his best option is to jump to SF/WOT and wrap the green flag round himself in the hope of lasting a second term in politics.
    A betting (wo)man would be inclined to believe though that we will have seen the end of O'Mahony's political career come 2016.
    Perversely though, he might be able to salvage some votes if he were to publicly support the pragmatic option of preserving the so-called WRC with a greenway, and tap into the growing swell of support for the sensible option and the widely-held belief that the trains aren't really coming. In other words, when in a hole, he should really stop digging.


  • #4533
    BuffyBot
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 24,924 Mod ✭✭✭✭BuffyBot


    I appreciate the thread is a meandering beast, but perhaps the less on topic back and forth chit chat might be better via PM for you guys :)


  • #4534
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Don't forget if you support the Greenway on the Railway campaign to make a submission to the Western Regional Authority for the Western Outdoor Recreation Strategy. The email address to send your submissions to is westrega@eircom.net

    The WRA is full of anti-greenway, anti-tourist infrastructure councillors - but maybe, just maybe if they get enough submissions (along with the nearly 300 already sent to Mayo county council) they might wake up and realise there is a change in mindset and the common man knows more about reality than they do.

    All the usual arguments apply, but perhaps the biggest one is the TEN-T European Policy. The EU TEN-T Transport strategy has excluded the so called Western Rail corridor as a route for investment, but has identified key road projects like the N17/18 for development. Without EU structural funds the so called Western Rail corridor will not happen, there will be no domestic funds available for it and there will be no EU funds available for it.

    This single issue makes the arguments to use the route as a greenway compelling. For those on this thread that continually support the pro-tourism lobby group for the a greenway do send in your submissions. They need to be in by December 20th - its one small email. Thanks.

    http://www.galwaycity.ie/GeneralNews/051213_01.html


  • #4535
    galwaycyclist
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    I know the WRC as a railway is not covered by TEN T . However long distance greenways are also a form of strategic infrastructure.

    What are the chances that converting the WRC to something useful like a greenway would be fundable under TEN T?

    Dont have time to check myself.


  • #4536
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    I know the WRC as a railway is not covered by TEN T . However long distance greenways are also a form of strategic infrastructure.

    What are the chances that converting the WRC to something useful like a greenway would be fundable under TEN T?

    Dont have time to check myself.

    The costal route is what's marked in with the ECF route maps, I'm don't know how firm the funding is attached to that one route, but it is the route at least between Galway and Mayo which is favored by the councils and other bodies.


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  • #4537
    Tuam Greenway Project
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭Tuam Greenway Project


    monument wrote: »
    The costal route is what's marked in with the ECF route maps, I'm don't know how firm the funding is attached to that one route, but it is the route at least between Galway and Mayo which is favored by the councils and other bodies.

    This is true. The problem is to Mayo and Galway Co Co's, and indeed tourist bodies, cycling is soley a leisure activity mainly used by "daft" foreigners to explore our mountains and seashores. It needsto be recognised as a legitimate, sustainable form of transport and an essential addition to the overall health and wellbeing of our people (and a tourist attraction).


  • #4538
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    monument wrote: »
    The costal route is what's marked in with the ECF route maps, I'm don't know how firm the funding is attached to that one route, but it is the route at least between Galway and Mayo which is favored by the councils and other bodies.

    When they start looking at land costs they might shirk away from this, The coastal route is all about shared routes with motor vehicles on the coast road, probably trying to sell us the "Wild Atlantic Way" as a combined car touring and cycling route, which will have zero appeal to families. The rail corridor route will be stand alone segregated route, and passes through towns that provide the visitor infrastructure needed, beds, pubs restaurants shops etc. It would be a massive local amenity for families with young children - but councillors don't seem to care about this sector of society.

    Re the question on funding there is EU funding for the Euro velo project, and in some respects even comparing the funding costs of the railway with a greenway is apples and pears. The railway cost is about a factor of 100x more than a greenway and then there is the huge subvention costs for such a fantasy project. The cost of subventing Ennis/Athenry for a year would more than build the entire length of greenway from Athenrty to Claremorris.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EuroVelo

    The WRC route would be an ideal and obvious route for a greenway in any other European country; but this is Ireland. Once the county councils are taken out of the decision making process it will happen. Alan Kelly and Leo Varadkar are both big fans of the idea....


  • #4539
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    "The cost of subventing Ennis/Athenry for a year would more than build the entire length of greenway from Athenrty to Claremorris."

    a sobering thought.


  • #4540
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Tuam Greenway Project wrote: »
    cycling ... needs to be recognised as a legitimate, sustainable form of transport and an essential addition to the overall health and wellbeing of our people (and a tourist attraction).
    Don't forget that Greenways can be used by walkers and joggers as well.

    The recent Bus Lane in Claregalway is an interesting case in point. As part of that project new (lighted) footpaths were installed, and any evening you can see dozens of locals walking and jogging on it.

    Then imagine the similar uptake in Tuam and all points north were a greenway in place with lighting in the town areas.


  • #4541
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Alan Kelly, Minister of State for Public and Commuter Transport wrote:
    The popularity of cycling has absolutely gone through the roof. It’s been a very exciting time to be Minister. The success of the Mayo Greenway has meant the demand is enormous for similar routes to be created all over the country. They are huge tourism drivers and create a dynamic.
    link


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  • #4542
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    galwaycyclist wrote: »
    I know the WRC as a railway is not covered by TEN T . However long distance greenways are also a form of strategic infrastructure.

    What are the chances that converting the WRC to something useful like a greenway would be fundable under TEN T?

    Dont have time to check myself.

    There is a separate funding stream for infrastructure like greenways, under the EuroVelo scheme. Ten-T is about strategic national infrastructure, including rail, roads, energy and communications.
    In my view the only way that Ten-T funding could be applied to this route would be if it was funded as a broadband corridor in the first instance, with the cycle-path added as a spin-off benefit. This is probably what needs to be done, but by using cycle funding and getting a contribution towards the cost from a broadband provider.
    As a previous poster said, the cost is insignificant in any case; the subvention on the ghost railway from Ennis to Athenry would cover it, given that it would cost about 1% of the cost of a rail line. A contribution towards the cost from a broadband company would make it look very cheap indeed.
    Infrastructure like this is not a big deal anywhere else; it is only in Ireland that we make a song and dance about it. You would think that the short little greenway in Mayo was a wonder of the world from the hoo-hah that surrounds it when politicians want to attach their names to its success, but in reality this kind of short path is the norm around most towns in Europe. What we lack is what they take for granted -- a decent long trail that a person can spend a weekend or a week wandering along, or that can connect a string of towns like the ones between Athenry and Sligo.
    Basic stuff, but the opposition to it is bewildering and obviously coming from the kind of people that just don't get it.


  • #4543
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Serf - unfortunately Alan Kelly seems to have stirred up the hornets net in his comments about the middle class not using the bus which gets slightly more coverage in the link you provided. Perhaps not his wisest comments!, nevertheless he is very supportive of a greenway on the WRC - or so he told the Sligo Mayo Greenway when he met them this summer, I just wish he would make a public announcement about his support for a greenway on this route instead of his continuous reliance on the county councils like Galway and Mayo to take the lead, all they will do is continue to be obstructive to the one chance we have to use this route for something useful clinging to the last vestige of hope that the WRC is going to saved by the fairy godmother called Europe - The TEN-T strategy has shown that this particular Fairy God Mother is not going to be part of their pantomine...(seasonal touch :-) )


  • #4544
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    serfboard wrote: »
    Don't forget that Greenways can be used by walkers and joggers as well.

    The recent Bus Lane in Claregalway is an interesting case in point. As part of that project new (lighted) footpaths were installed, and any evening you can see dozens of locals walking and jogging on it.

    Then imagine the similar uptake in Tuam and all points north were a greenway in place with lighting in the town areas.

    We never managed to put a long trail in place in Ireland that could properly be called a long-distance walk. We do have the Wicklow Way, but we never managed to establish a trail that would catch the imagination of walkers in the manner of the Camino de Santiago or the Hadrian's Wall Path in the UK. Both of these are major economic drivers in their regions and if we only established one such trail here it would transform the economy in the region. It needs to be from 'somewhere to somewhere', as some commentator suggested, with accommodation and services along the way -- a disused rail line fits that bill perfectly.
    A footpath and cyclepath along this route could be overlaid with a 'camino' type product from Sligo to Croagh Patrick via Knock, to tap into another massive market -- religious tourism. Get the Christians marching on this trail and we'd be laughing.


  • #4545
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭serfboard


    eastwest wrote: »
    we never managed to establish a trail that would catch the imagination of walkers in the manner of the Camino de Santiago
    We do actually have our own version of the Camino - it's called the Tochár Phádraig. Unfortunately we haven't developed it properly but it still has that imagination catching potential, IMO.
    eastwest wrote: »
    A footpath and cyclepath along this route could be overlaid with a 'camino' type product from Sligo to Croagh Patrick via Knock, to tap into another massive market -- religious tourism. Get the Christians marching on this trail and we'd be laughing.
    While I do agree with the tourism potential, I come more from the perspective of an amenity for locals - like even the bit of the Tralee-Fenit greenway that has been developed and is a great asset to the locals in Tralee.


  • #4546
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    serfboard wrote: »
    We do actually have our own version of the Camino - it's called the [URL="http://www.everytrail.com/view_trip.php?trip_id=1193934"
    Tochár Phádraig[/URL]. Unfortunately we haven't developed it properly but it still has that imagination catching potential, IMO.



    While I do agree with the tourism potential, I come more from the perspective of an amenity for locals - like even the bit of the Tralee-Fenit greenway that has been developed and is a great asset to the locals in Tralee.[/QUOTE]

    Tochar Padraig is a sound concept, but it needs to be (a) located on a decent footpath and not on roads, and (b) it needs to pass through accommodation centres at regular intervals. The Claremorris-Collooney route, coupled with the existing trails, can deliver just that.
    The way to make Tochar Padraig work, in my view, is to start it by all means at Armagh or wherever they want, and to route it towards Enniskillen and through Collooney. As in the case of the Camino de Santiago, the true believers could walk the whole lot of it, and the people on a week-long break could walk the last 100 miles.
    The canny clergy in Spain realised that most people would just do a week-long walk, so they give their indulgences for anyone that walks the last 100k, which is what most people do.

    Regarding local amenity, you're right, but it's both; an improvement in amenities in any area not only makes the place more attractive to visitors, it makes it a better place to live. The economics of sustainable tourism investment help deliver infrastructure for locals that might not be built otherwise, particularly in areas of low population densities.
    The Mayo Greenway is mostly used by locals in the off season, as far as I can see from visits there in wintertime.


  • #4547
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭serfboard


    eastwest wrote: »
    The economics of sustainable tourism investment help deliver infrastructure for locals that might not be built otherwise, particularly in areas of low population densities.
    Very good point. I've walked some of the looped walks in the West of Ireland and

    a) they are a fantastic amenity - paths marked out very well and

    b) there's never anyone else on them!


  • #4548
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Have heard that RTE Ear to the Ground has an interesting feature on the Sligo Mayo Greenway proposal for the Claremorris-collooney line on the programme this Thursday January 2nd. Shot on location in July of this year it will hopefully expose the potential of the route as a greenway to the nation!


  • #4549
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Post move to correct thread -- as much as possible please keep posts clearly about one section of the WRC in the correct thread, thanks!


  • #4550
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    westtip wrote: »
    Have heard that RTE Ear to the Ground has an interesting feature on the Sligo Mayo Greenway proposal for the Claremorris-collooney line on the programme this Thursday January 2nd. Shot on location in July of this year it will hopefully expose the potential of the route as a greenway to the nation!
    It exposed the 'dog in the manger' nature of the SF/WOT position. An elected representative had the brass neck to say that the greenway was 'not up for discussion' at the county council. I would have thought that the whole idea of democracy at local level was that pretty much everything should be 'up for discussion'.
    Apart from a few diehard 'Brits out' fanatics, who votes for these guys?
    Is that programme being repeated? I missed the first minute or so of the topic.


  • #4551
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    eastwest wrote: »
    It exposed the 'dog in the manger' nature of the SF/WOT position. An elected representative had the brass neck to say that the greenway was 'not up for discussion' at the county council. I would have thought that the whole idea of democracy at local level was that pretty much everything should be 'up for discussion'.
    Apart from a few diehard 'Brits out' fanatics, who votes for these guys?
    Is that programme being repeated? I missed the first minute or so of the topic.

    you can see the whole programme on the rte player
    http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10238741/

    Unbelievable arrogance from SF/WOT Gerry "not up for discussion" Murray should issue an apology to the near 300 people who made a submission to Mayo coco asking for a greenway. Quite unbelievable any politician can be so arrogant in this day and age.


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  • #4552
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭serfboard


    westtip wrote: »
    Quite unbelievable any politician can be so arrogant
    Not unbelievable at all. Arrogance is the first requirement to be a politician - after all when you first run for election you have to believe you can do it better than the incumbents.

    As regards Councillor Murray, if you think you could do the job better than you're entitled to run for election - but that would make you arrogant too ;)


  • #4553
    eastwest
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭eastwest


    It certainly seems very odd that a County Councillor would suggest that there are issues that cannot be discussed at Council level. I wonder what other issues are taboo in the Council chamber?
    I think we should be told!


  • #4554
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    It's good to see the local regional press are now reporting on the business view on the Greenway option, articles appeared reporting business support for the greenway in both the Roscommon Herald and Sligo Champion today/


  • #4555
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Expense-collecting member of the Inter County Rail Committee unsurprisingly opposes a Greenway on the route.
    Galway Bay FM wrote:
    A county councillor says proposals to create a greenway along the route of the Western rail corridor, could scupper plans to re-open the railway route. Vice Chairman of the Western Inter County Rail Committee, Fianna Fáil Councillor, Michael Connolly says to set up a greenway from Cooloney would be 'economic madness'.

    Councillor Connolly maintains that they still must work for investment in a rail network in the west.
    Have to laugh at this - a greenway "could scupper plans to re-open the railway route". What plans?

    He expanded on this a bit further on the radio saying that the council is in favour of Greenways (and in fairness, is supporting the Greenway along the old Clifden line). However, in contrasting the WRC with the Great Western Greenway, he says the GWG was build along a closed route whereas the official status of the WRC is "engineering sidings".

    And that makes all the difference in the world.

    Apparently.


  • #4556
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    serfboard wrote: »
    Expense-collecting member of the Inter County Rail Committee unsurprisingly opposes a Greenway on the route.

    Have to laugh at this - a greenway "could scupper plans to re-open the railway route". What plans?

    .

    Exactly. There are no plans to re-open any other parts of the WRC only in the minds of a few dillusional county councillors who meet and claim expenses for Inter County Rail Committee meetings.

    Unfortunately, the Galway councillor in this soundbite has failed to look a the facts about Claremorris-Collooney, which has never been on any plans - again save in the mind of a few councillors and rail enthusiasts.

    He needs to return the original blueprint for the WRC the now infamous McCann report, which said of Claremorris-Collooney back in the halcyon CT days: The report was written back in 2005:
    The comparison showing the widest divergence is that between Athenry-Ennis and Claremorris-Collooney where the average cost per mile of the latter is more than twice that of the former

    I understand that there are two main reasons why the cost of the Claremorris-Collooney section is very high. Firstly, when it was built in 1891-1892 the section was constructed as a light railway. If it were to be brought into the IE network the formation would have to be rebuilt to the national heavy rail standard. The second relates to the cost of necessary alterations to level crossings, of which there are a total of 290 along the section, two of which alone would cost €24m to create grade separations.

    In following through on my general recommendation, I am suggesting that the restoration of the WRC should take account of these relative costings.

    I think I will send a copy to the Galway councillors! Can you imagine the outcry if having spent €105 million on railway to carry an average of 8 passengers per train, the country then spent double that on a cost per mile basis (plus factoring up for inflation) to re-open another white elephant - these councillors are only making fools of themselves by continuing with this kind of rhetoric.


  • #4557
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    More great coverage of the greenway plans for the Western Rail Corridor north of Athenry in the regional media, go to page 10 of this weeks Mayo Advertiser on the link below.

    http://edition.pagesuite-professional.co.uk/launch.aspx?pbid=4d7e191c-4960-4c44-a8d2-7c892caae409


  • #4558
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Death knell sounds for Western Rail Corridor extension

    http://www.connachttribune.ie/galway-news/item/2104-motorway-set-for-major-move

    Varadkar said this on Today with Sean O'Rourke, on Thursday 16th, that people in the west want to see the likes of the N4/N5 improved and its road improvements in the west of Ireland that we are constantly been told is what people want to see in the west. He also referred to the dispersed housing in the west means road improvements are critical. (words to this effect anyway).

    He did not make direct reference to the WRC but his message is pretty clear, with the news now definite about the contracts been signed on the N17/18 isn't it now a foregone conclusion that the WRC quite simply is not going to happen north of Athenry. Although I notice at the end of this report posted there is still the forlorn clinging to the idea by some local politicians.


  • #4559
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭serfboard


    westtip wrote: »
    Although I notice at the end of this report posted there is still the forlorn clinging to the idea by some local politicians.
    Correction Westtip - the forlorn clinging in the report is being done by Deirdre Frost - a "policy analyst at the Western Development Commission (WDC)."

    And interestingly, even though it ain't going to happen, it seems the goal is a lot less ambitious now - she only called for the opening of the line from Tuam to Galway ...

    The motorway announcement means this:

    The railway is dead - long live the railway! (in Greenway format)


  • #4560
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    serfboard wrote: »
    Expense-collecting member of the Inter County Rail Committee unsurprisingly opposes a Greenway on the route.

    Have to laugh at this - a greenway "could scupper plans to re-open the railway route". What plans?

    He expanded on this a bit further on the radio saying that the council is in favour of Greenways (and in fairness, is supporting the Greenway along the old Clifden line). However, in contrasting the WRC with the Great Western Greenway, he says the GWG was build along a closed route whereas the official status of the WRC is "engineering sidings".

    And that makes all the difference in the world.

    Apparently.

    the attached was sent to all county councillors in Galway in response to this ludicrous "Economic Madness" statement by councillor connolly, you may find it an interesting bit of economic madness.


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  • #4561
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Mayo coco have refused to accept the views of nearly 300 submissions on the new county plan asking for a greenway. Instead the county council have come up with this latest idea:

    I quote from the amended county plan: - page 53 of the amended draft county plan which can be read in full at this link and downloaded as a .pdf from here: http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Planning/DraftMayoCountyDevelopmentPlan2014-2020/Document2,23438,en.pdf
    RL -03 “It is an objective of the Council, in conjunction with Iarnrod Eireann, and relevant tourism interests to investigate the use of the Western Rail Corridor for velo-rail as an interim use for the rail line pending its reopening for passenger and rail freight”

    This is definitely the finer art of can kicking down the road. The idea of a velo-rail has come from the local Kiltimagh IRD development company - some of whom are....guess what members and supporters of west on track ...are you following the story...

    If they get this idea written into tablets of stone in the County Development plan, it then becomes council policy until 2020. This will effectively kill off any "loose talk" as one councillor described the idea of a greenway.

    Irish Rail supports greenways on old routes...so we can guess where this idea is going to go.

    so what on earth is velo-rail - and why do West on Track support this idea..

    Velo-Rail is an interesting idea, and can only be operated on safe secure well maintained existing railway lines. I doubt there is a one kilometre stretch of the Western Rail Corridor that currently fulfils the health and safety requirements needed for velo-rail; for want of a better description it is a four wheeled cycle system placed on the line that people then use cycle power to go up and down the line. Just google it or look at this link https://www.google.ie/search?q=velo+rail&espv=210&es_sm=122&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=3lXeUsHnFov07Abw7YCQDA&ved=0CCwQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=643 the work involved to get the WRC back to the standard of safety needed for this kind of operation would be huge and very very expensive.

    It's not going to happen...and when central government says not...it will give the naysayers another chance to say the wesht is doomed and the D4 economists won't let us have what truly would be a toy railway....

    So where do we go from here - Well the sligo mayo greenway campaign - was not entirely surprised by the spineless way in which MCC has handled this matter....and are asking supporters to once again start emailing the council and making further submissions on the county plan.

    If you want to apply more public pressure on MCC then the simple thing to do is take action the key email address is forwardplanning@mayococo.ie

    You have to give your name and address and submissions need to be in by February 13th to let them know what you think of their velorail idea and ask them why they have ignored nearly 300 submissions. All the detail can be found on the Mayo coco web site here

    http://www.mayococo.ie/en/Planning/DraftMayoCountyDevelopmentPlan2014-2020/

    Hey ho ... Don't ya just love it.


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