Man Vs Black belt Woman?

getz · 20-09-2010 12:05pm

Cristiano Purple Barefaced wrote: »

Give it over and have a bit of respect for the man.

If you don't agree, discuss it. Don't mock.

when you get to my age 70 years,, running is not a option,neither is trying to avoid the blow/kick,i train to block and hit,but i can assure you that if my block did not stop you my strike will,when i hit you stay hit,that is the difference between sport and the traditional martial art, maybe in 50 years in the art[if you are still doing it] you will understand

travelguru · 20-09-2010 12:06pm

black belt woman FTW!

cowzerp · 20-09-2010 12:50pm

getz wrote: »

when you get to my age 70 years,, running is not a option,neither is trying to avoid the blow/kick,i train to block and hit,but i can assure you that if my block did not stop you my strike will,when i hit you stay hit,that is the difference between sport and the traditional martial art, maybe in 50 years in the art[if you are still doing it] you will understand

i think your mixing up sports such as Boxing, MMA with sport karate.

In them sports you try to finish your opponent with 1 hit also, its easier said than done and as most martial arts dont train with resistance it would be even less realistic.. so when you miss and get hit, you stay hit too.

yomchi · 20-09-2010 1:31pm

I'm not a bad fighter, I've done a bit. But when I spar my mate he can block pretty much 90%

Compare these blocks, which in your sport Barry are primarily parries, as opposed to blocks with the shins, an compare them to the traditional (there's that word again) blocks from Karate/Taekwon-Do which are developed with pure self defence in mind. My point is coming from that direct self defence angle as opposed to sport which is inherently functional.

yomchi · 20-09-2010 1:38pm

getz wrote: »

when you get to my age 70 years,, running is not a option,neither is trying to avoid the blow/kick,i train to block and hit,but i can assure you that if my block did not stop you my strike will,when i hit you stay hit,that is the difference between sport and the traditional martial art, maybe in 50 years in the art[if you are still doing it] you will understand

I'm not sure if that's aimed at me because I'm challenging the concept of blocking here. I have done so with respect IMO so I'm not sure where your last sentence fits in. I'm hoping it wasn't about firing an insult across to distract from the discussion. After 50 years, I could say you would have found this out by now, but I won't. 50 years training is admirable, you are my senior not only in the MA's but in life so who am I to challenge your opinion, but I would encourage you to take a look at how some of this stuff has evolved if you are not sport orientated.

Peace.

opinion guy · 20-09-2010 1:45pm

Ok something strikes me here (pun intended)

I'm not sure how 'useful' in 'real life situations' MMA is as compared to anything else. Yes you have ring experience. But in real life if you are on the street and somebody decides to mug you they are far more liekly to brick you over the back of the head than approach you from the front and give you formal notice of intent to fight. It could happent hat way - but its less likely. And even then having karate or TKD experience is also useful in terms that at least you ahve some conditioning and form.

At the end of the day no matter how trained you are there will always be a luck element

cowzerp · 20-09-2010 1:51pm

opinion guy wrote: »

Ok something strikes me here (pun intended)

I'm not sure how 'useful' in 'real life situations' MMA is as compared to anything else. Yes you have ring experience. But in real life if you are on the street and somebody decides to mug you they are far more liekly to brick you over the back of the head than approach you from the front and give you formal notice of intent to fight. It could happent hat way - but its less likely. And even then having karate or TKD experience is also useful in terms that at least you ahve some conditioning and form.

At the end of the day no matter how trained you are there will always be a luck element

Thats true but with MMA you are capable in many areas so if a fight ends up in strange positions your usually well used to that and can react accordingly..

same cant be said for most..

a brick in the back of the head makes all martial arts obsolete so is kind of pointless in a debate like this.

Charlie3dan · 20-09-2010 2:13pm

The TKD & Karate style blocks that are being discussed are only the first steps in a system. Advanced practitioners use blocks with body movement.
Blocking at an advanced level are usually more for protection or to glide a strike slightly off target and allow you to get close to your opponent while moving. In doing so you should be able to deliver a more effective counter.

Also, what getz has said about blocks doing damage themselves I would see as an old school approach (with all do respect getz). While that has it's place I would say the majority of blocking is now more about taking the sting out of an attack and building up momentum for the counter attack. It is not about meeting force with force.

But again to be clear, blocking is not an alternative to evasive movement. Blocks should be used with evasive movement.
If you are using blocks to stand in front of someone and say "you can't hit me" while flailing your arms around, that's just stupid. As is leaping far out of range with no guard in order to avoid attacks.

cowzerp · 20-09-2010 2:21pm

Charlie3dan wrote: »

The TKD & Karate style blocks that are being discussed are only the first steps in a system. Advanced practitioners use blocks with body movement.
Blocking at an advanced level are usually more for protection or to glide a strike slightly off target and allow you to get close to your opponent while moving. In doing so you should be able to deliver a more effective counter.

Also, what getz has said about blocks doing damage themselves I would see as an old school approach (with all do respect getz). While that has it's place I would say the majority of blocking is now more about taking the sting out of an attack and building up momentum for the counter attack. It is not about meeting force with force.

But again to be clear, blocking is not an alternative to evasive movement. Blocks should be used with evasive movement.
If you are using blocks to stand in front of someone and say "you can't hit me" while flailing your arms around, that's just stupid. As is leaping far out of range with no guard in order to avoid attacks.

If i understand what you wrote your saying the blocking is more parrying than actual blocking, parrying is easy enough and very effective if you practise it against people who are actually trying to hit you, blocking in the sense of stopping a punch dead is a bad idea and usually leaves you in a position for the follow up punch..

Blocking kicks like in Muay thai is great for Muay thai but has a big risk to
the blocker aswell as the kicker, a bit of a lottery me thinks. suits thai in fairness, but there is a realistic risk of breaking your tibula or fibula with this type of blocking especially if done wrong..

antybots · 20-09-2010 3:16pm

Just to clarify where I'm coming from, I was indeed talking about the traditional static blocks as the ones that didn't work.

For example : One of the tests we did had the attacker and defender square up towards each other (moving around sizing each other up like two people who are about to fight). The attacker then attacked with punches and kicks at random. The defender then tried to block the attacks using his traditional blocks. What happened was as follows :

1) When the attacker threw a single punch or kick it (mostly) got blocked.
2) When the attacker threw out a feint the defender usually threw out a block instinctively, so then the attacker would feint again followed quickly by another attack or 2 from a different angle e.g a feint left hook followed by a straight right and a front kick. In all cases, the defender wasn't quick enough to switch techniques to block all the attacks and got clobbered. Also, both parties ended up with very sore limbs so the blocking (when it happened) was doing as much damage to the defender as to the attacker.

When we changed the test to allow the defender to use parries and sport-type blocks, he was much better at defending himself because he was able to cover up, move and parry the attacks while looking for an opening to strike.

It wasn't scientific but it's what happened.

Charlie3dan · 20-09-2010 3:37pm

Cowzerp

If i understand what you wrote your saying the blocking is more parrying than actual blocking, parrying is easy enough and very effective if you practise it against people who are actually trying to hit you, blocking in the sense of stopping a punch dead is a bad idea and usually leaves you in a position for the follow up punch..

Yes closer to parrying and yes I agree with all that.

Antybots

Just to clarify where I'm coming from, I was indeed talking about the traditional static blocks as the ones that didn't work.

I'm just saying the basic blocks that you see in TKD/ Karate aren't meant for use in practise. All the beginner practises (exaggerated movement, long stances, pre-arranged sparring techniques etc) are just the start of a system. They are used to build strong foundations. These become much more refined at a higher level and the blocks are not static, large movements.

yomchi · 20-09-2010 3:40pm

Charlie3dan wrote: »

Cowzerp

Yes closer to parrying and yes I agree with all that.

Antybots

I'm just saying the basic blocks that you see in TKD/ Karate aren't meant for use in practise. All the beginner practises (exaggerated movement, long stances, pre-arranged sparring techniques etc) are just the start of a system. They are used to build strong foundations. These become much more refined at a higher level and the blocks are not static, large movements.

So higher level Karate looks like what? - MMA? Reality based concepts?
Or just beginner Karate done a bit faster?

Genuinely curious.

Barry.Oglesby · 20-09-2010 4:14pm

yomchi wrote: »

Compare these blocks, which in your sport Barry are primarily parries, as opposed to blocks with the shins, an compare them to the traditional (there's that word again) blocks from Karate/Taekwon-Do which are developed with pure self defence in mind. My point is coming from that direct self defence angle as opposed to sport which is inherently functional.

I think we're going to eventually arrive at the old street vs. sport chestnut anyway so it's probably good to bring it up early doors.

Lots of blocking with the shins and elbows and forearms in my sport. Lots of catching and scooping kicks and punches. No, it doesn't look much like taekwondo to be sure but then again what does? as I've mentioned the more experienced I get the more the "art" appeals to me of how to fight. For me it used to be how to punch harder and choke faster. Now I can punch about as hard as I ever will and I seem to have some of that choking business down it's all about angles and counters, movement, blocking and making opportunites for those chokes/strikes/armlocks/throws.

I dunno. Maybe I'm so far removed from the street defence argument at this stage that it doesn't make sense to me any more on any level. To me fighting is fighting, whether you do it in a ring or anywhere else, the fundamental rules don't change.

Charlie3dan · 20-09-2010 5:25pm

yomchi wrote: »

So higher level Karate looks like what? - MMA? Reality based concepts?
Or just beginner Karate done a bit faster?
Genuinely curious.

I suppose you could say it's a more refined and free flowing form of the basic techniques. The fights are like any other kind of sparring/fighting although Karate does have a strong stand up bias of course.

Man Vs Black belt Woman?

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