[Praetorian Saighdiuir]

Originally Posted by cambridge

If you joined the army because you are patriotic, you are a fool. I don't know where this misplaced sense of patriotism comes from.

What is wrong with being patriotic? I joined the army as that has always been my prefered choice. I had a keen interest in it since I was very young. I suspect this stemmed from watching tv / films of other militaries. As soon as I was old enough I joined the Reserves, then after my LC I took the leap and followed my career goal and I joined the PDF.

Originally Posted by cambridge

If you joined the army for money, you are a fool. While the risk of dying on duty is small it is substantial compared to other professions. The remuneration offered for the risk isn't worth it. The only way I can fathom why anyone did this is because they have historical links to the army or had nothing better going for them

I did not join the PDF to be wealthy. At the moment I have a guaranteed weekly wage which I am extremely grateful and thankful for. I may not "earn" it in your eyes but at least I am a tax paying citizen. I have no former ties to the PDF and to suggest soldiers "had nothing better going for them" is disgraceful.

Originally Posted by cambridge

This cry babyism about unions and strikes and stuff, doesn't impress me much. Anyone that goes into the army should know what the risks and limitations are. I personally don't have a huge amount of sympathy for those that die in service, it's part of your job

What strikes? The DF are contractually / constitutionally unable to strike. Our unions are useless and are of no benefit to us. As an organisation I would wager that we would not strike even if the opportunity was available to us.

Unfortunately we have had people die in service, they did not die so people would have sympathy for them in years to come. Many Irish men died and were wounded for carrying out extreme acts of bravery / valour in situations that would seem futile and hopeless. These men who you have no sympathy for paid the ultimate sacrifice in doing their jobs. we all accept it is an "occupational hazard" and a possible consequence of military service.

Originally Posted by cambridge

The audacity and sheer arrogance of the poster who justified 1 bm defence spending compared to 14 billion health spending is astounding. For every euro spent on the defence, I get nothing in return. Nothing. No peace of mind. Well in fairness I probably get more ATM access. Military spending should be reduced by 90%

Unlike other areas of state spending, the DF does not waste their budget. We have a modest budget and we spend it wisely. You are a fool suggesting we reduce it by 90%. We do a lot with very little. If anything, we need more money to be allotted to us.

We are a Defence Force not an invading military force. Ireland is a small nation with a small amount of tax paying citizens and a small amount of serving soldiers. Obviously we could not repel a full invading land / air assault from a major World superpower. However, after we are nuked, anyone left standing would give it a damn good go.

Thats why I am here, in the unlikely event that the soverignty of the state is compromised by an internal or external force. With the odds firmly stacked against me, I will gladly join the ranks of Irish soldiers that died in service so the likes of you can mock us because we are not needed in your eyes. I hope the day never comes that I need to fight on my own soil, because if it does, you are all ****ed, at least I will have a rifle.

[cambridge]

Originally Posted by benwavner

What is wrong with being patriotic? I joined the army as that has always been my prefered choice. I had a keen interest in it since I was very young. I suspect this stemmed from watching tv / films of other militaries. As soon as I was old enough I joined the Reserves, then after my LC I took the leap and followed my career goal and I joined the PDF.

It's inherently stupid. You were born in this country by fluke. Flags are just pieces of material, borders just lines on a map.

I did not join the PDF to be wealthy. At the moment I have a guaranteed weekly wage which I am extremely grateful and thankful for. I may not "earn" it in your eyes but at least I am a tax paying citizen. I have no former ties to the PDF and to suggest soldiers "had nothing better going for them" is disgraceful.

My point was the money isn't great. My suggestion isn't disgraceful, could you get a easier job for more money?

What strikes? The DF are contractually / constitutionally unable to strike. Our unions are useless and are of no benefit to us. As an organisation I would wager that we would not strike even if the opportunity was available to us

.

That was my point, army think they're great because they can't / don't strike.

Unfortunately we have had people die in service, they did not die so people would have sympathy for them in years to come. Many Irish men died and were wounded for carrying out extreme acts of bravery / valour in situations that would seem futile and hopeless. These men who you have no sympathy for paid the ultimate sacrifice in doing their jobs. we all accept it is an "occupational hazard" and a possible consequence of military service.

exactly, they got paid to do it, they signed up for it, and the risk didn't come up in their favour. If my brother joined the army and got shot I'd feel pretty annoyed he was dead because of some middle eastern war.

Unlike other areas of state spending, the DF does not waste their budget. We have a modest budget and we spend it wisely. You are a fool suggesting we reduce it by 90%. We do a lot with very little. If anything, we need more money to be allotted to us.

Why am i a fool? You do nothing that a civilian force couldn't do. We don't need it. It's not a necessary service.

We are a Defence Force not an invading military force. Ireland is a small nation with a small amount of tax paying citizens and a small amount of serving soldiers. Obviously we could not repel a full invading land / air assault from a major World superpower. However, after we are nuked, anyone left standing would give it a damn good go.

we could not defend against anyone who could mount an offence.

Thats why I am here, in the unlikely event that the soverignty of the state is compromised by an internal or external force. With the odds firmly stacked against me, I will gladly join the ranks of Irish soldiers that died in service so the likes of you can mock us because we are not needed in your eyes. I hope the day never comes that I need to fight on my own soil, because if it does, you are all ****ed, at least I will have a rifle.

fantasy heroism. romanticism. naivety. I pity you tbh, you sound like a teenager. Basically you're saying you'll be best prepared in case of a zomibe/alien apocalypse .

[neilled]

Originally Posted by cambridge

coast guard



mountain search and rescue

,

police



police



paramedics

everything you've listed is the responsibility of a civilian force not a military force. Why do you need to be able to shoot a gun to do any of that?[/QUOTE]

The reason any armed force in any country exists is to carry out violence against those whom the government of the day order it to. However, because they don't go on strike, go down with mass "flu" are generally cheaper paid and have a variety of skills that they develop from their primary role of training to dish out violence, all armies other jobs to do between serving overseas and the associated nastiness of getting shot at/blown up.

In Ireland until around a decade ago SAR was a military function, and the capability remains there, coast guards for the most part are unable to provide "top cover" which remains a military function, nor can they fly using NVGs. Mountain search and rescue are voluntary organisations who beg borrow and scrimp for their members kit and get virtually no state funding (put a donation in the box next time your in great outdoors or the outdoor adventure store). When things go wrong the the brave underfunded and definitely under appreciated volunteers can't get the job done because their numbers are to few and their limits are reached state is normally asked to help out and that normally involves deploying the chaps who are trained in survival in inhospitable terrain, long range navigation and have a variety of equipment for locating hiddenthings get called in.

Or maybe in your mind moutain rescue are fools as well, because they get no pay, give up their own time at cost to their own productivity and put themselves at risk of severe injury for others that they do not know? Oh wait, thats selflessness........

Searching for stuff is believe it or not military forces have gotten good at, indeed it was a military engineer whos ideas on search work are used by police forces today. But simply put, police firemen etc can go on strike, say "i'm not going, not my job wheres my overtime" - if someone says it in the military its mutiny. Simply put the state can rely on the job to be done, or attempted and have a variety of useful kit, techniques and a lack of an overtime bill.

The HSE doesn't have choppers, the military do. Its a civilian tasking in other countries, however in Ireland we have the situation where the Air Corps has evolved into the air arm of the state. Its in a bit of a damned if you do and damned if you don't - if it was off getting shot out of the sky/bombing people back to the stone age, people would be asking "what about our neutrality" or if they weren't doing civilian taskings "why do we have them" But in short the aircorps do their military role and many other roles that they are asked to carry out as the primary air asset of the irish state.

Bomb disposal is a primarily a military tasking. Even the RUC in the depths of the troubles didn't have a bomb disposal unit - they relied on felix teams from the british army. Equally, why does someone need to be able to go through the extensive training to become a police officer in order disable a bomb/deal with explosives? Army bomb disposal personnel generally come from the whatever national armys "Ordnance Corps" who normally are responsible for stuff that goes bang - they're the experts, they deal with explosives on a day to day basis.

[neilled]

Originally Posted by cambridge

Was this not my point. The army is too small to be effective in defending this country. If anyone, ANYONE invaded our defence force would be destroyed within hours.

Then accept that a minimum credible defence requires cold hard cash and more of it. Your alternative is the voluntary abandonment of one of basic requisites of state sovereignty.

[looksee]

What is it with the 'lets find someone to hate' attitude?

I seriously doubt that any member of the DF thought 'I'd like to spend my life dying for my country' when they joined. More likely they saw an opportunity to get good training, some travel and adventure and the possibility of a bit of risk and excitement to spice things up. Nothing wrong with that.

Whether the DF is necessary is not up to the individual soldier, its up to the government - the elected government that the population voted for. If there is an army and the possibility of a job why wouldn't an individual go for it.

If you go to other forums on Boards you will find people busily hating and despising teachers, council workers, medical staff etc. And some of the people doing the hating and despising will be members of the defense forces. And vice versa.

So why the aggravation? Most of the complaining tends to be about working conditions (teachers holidays, overcrowded hospitals, badly constructed roads for example) which are outside the control of the individual workers. Why expend all that energy on sniping at other groups?

As to the nonsensical heading 'hatred' of the defence forces - I am not aware of any hatred, apathy maybe, but hatred? Some specific examples would be helpful.

[cambridge]

No need to go through each point separably, I'll just make some general points.

You are justifying the existence of a military force because this military force is good at doing non-military jobs because there is no funding for a civilian force to do it. Does this make sense to you? The army has to fill in for mountain rescue? Why not get rid of the army, and make a proper mount rescue team? Almost everything you said can be dismissed as a rationalisation. Btw, if a search and rescue team has to and get a helicopter and find a missing mountaineer I believe the mountaineer should be sent a bill for it. If someone has to be fished out of the irish sea because their around the world expedition failed, they should be sent a bill by the coast guard. I'd go as far as saying that if you willingly into these things for recreation, you can get out on your own.

[cambridge]

Originally Posted by neilled

Then accept that a minimum credible defence requires cold hard cash and more of it. Your alternative is the voluntary abandonment of one of basic requisites of state sovereignty.

Our surface area, the size of our sea territories, we'd need 100000s of miliary people. We'd need to spend billions on tanks and jets and all that army jazz I'm sure you know much more than I. So essentially we should quit while we're behind, our army is a token gesture. Scale it back, replace it with equivalent civil ian organisations .

[Praetorian Saighdiuir]

Originally Posted by cambridge

It's inherently stupid. You were born in this country by fluke. Flags are just pieces of material, borders just lines on a map.

That is your point? thats it? Reasons not to be patriotic???? What the hell are you talking about!

Originally Posted by cambridge

My point was the money isn't great. My suggestion isn't disgraceful, could you get a easier job for more money?

Yes I could get an easier job for more money but why should I? I am extrememly happy with my career, not many people end up doing a job they love doing. I know guys an a hell of a lot more money than me but are miserable in their job.

Originally Posted by cambridge

That was my point, army think they're great because they can't / don't strike.

That is a remarkably stupid point to be making. Have you any evidence of the DF thinking they are great because they cant strike? You are better off sticking to facts instead of your closed minded opinions.

Originally Posted by cambridge

exactly, they got paid to do it, they signed up for it, and the risk didn't come up in their favour. If my brother joined the army and got shot I'd feel pretty annoyed he was dead because of some middle eastern war.

Yes it is part of the job.

Originally Posted by cambridge

Why am i a fool? You do nothing that a civilian force couldn't do. We don't need it. It's not a necessary service.

IED call outs, armed CIT, Anti terrorist roles

Originally Posted by cambridge

we could not defend against anyone who could mount an offence.

Yes we could, it may not last long depending on weapon systems. If the invading force was equal to our defending force. There are too many variables in this scenario.

Originally Posted by cambridge

fantasy heroism. romanticism. naivety. I pity you tbh, you sound like a teenager. Basically you're saying you'll be best prepared in case of a zomibe/alien apocalypse .

This is my problem with Walter Mitties. Silly, uneducated and tunnel vision opinions. There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to serve in your countries military. War waging or not war waging. There is actually no point in trying to reason with a person like you.

[Praetorian Saighdiuir]

Ok Cambridge,

We have established that my line of work is irrelevant to you, should be disbanded and I should be on the dole.

What is your profession and is is relevant to me? Maybe I could argue about the failings or neccessity of your career choice?


...and thats all I have to say to you.

[dev100]

Originally Posted by Morphéus

Normally Id say dont feed the troll, but im so f**king angry with this sh*t right now...

I got all this from a 5 minute google...

Irish Private soldier:
4 levels of pay
22 - 25K

British Private Soldier:
7 levels of pay
17 - 35K
Many more varied benefits and duty pay allowances than Irish counterpart


Us soldier:
Not worth comparing,totally different cost of living compared to EU, huge number of ranks compared to the basic ones in the DF each on different pay scales, lots of opportunity to increase pay through many more allowances and benefits than either Irish or British forces.

Also you are comparing totally different tax systems

FCA - gone since 2005 now its RDF

RDF get paid for all courses and for "annual" training and assessments and all duties, just not for normal training nights and normal training weekends.

1Bn euros?
The DF have not had a 1Bn euro budget in years, annually its always less than a Bn. the over administrated, top heavy, micro and mis managed department of health on the other hand has a 13 - 14Bn euro budget and zero accountability.

the army couldnt complain, they cant be members of unions... you may need us to help the gardai and emergency service to calm the tension and rioting in the streets when this happens though, but seeing how you scrapped us im sure you have an alternative solution.


You however have achieved one thing, you have succeeded as a troll, you have boiled my blood AND my head.

Yet you have also sweepingly succeeded in denigrating and defaming the soldiers of this nation, those that arrived home in body bags, those that arrived home on stretchers, both from overseas missions, missions on our own soil, in civil war and in our own domestic war on terror, those who suffer today with dibilitating injuries both physical and mental, those who still soldier and those who have retired after years of honorable service.

You are a f**king disgrace to your own nation, you are not a patriot of any sort, you want the world but wont get up off your own ar$e to do anything about it, you represent the celtic tigers era of a battery fed population who cant see past their own noses, who try to be the grey man all of their lives who suffer from occassional bouts of tourettes on threads like this, they are knuckle dragging, neanderthal, throwbacks with NO argument and NO point of view worth listening to because its usually based on fantasy and driven by possibly real world frustration that you cannot articulate into a sensible line of debate.

When you have decided to grow up and do some research and present a valid argument, I will be here waiting eagerly to respond, in a respectful manner and will listen to your view and give mine in the true spirit of debate.

I do however wager you know f*ck all about any military subjects other than the A Team or Platoon.

Prove me wrong.

In the meantime, you can at least sleep safely at night, knowing that even I, as a humble reservist, have still offered to give my life to save the likes of yours, but only as a citizen of Ireland, not because I owe you anything and it doesn't mean I have to like you. Laugh at that all you want but its what we have all volunteered to do. In todays defence forces I am surrounded by intelligent, articulate, creative, strong, selfless and patriotic individuals who for me represent the greatest team of comrades and friends I have ever had the pleasure to be a part of. They represent for me, all that is still great about this country and make it easy to ignore the likes of you so until you want to return for some reasonable debate, .

Chill out angry people shouldn't be in charge of dangerous weapons

I'm not against having a defence force . I was in the the fca and loved it. Even was accepted into the army as a recruit but I also wanted a trade as a fitter. I ended up getting an apprenticeship in civvy world and never looked back. Did I think at 18 if I entered into service as an Irish soldier would I be sent to a war zone . God no !!! I think if you asked any potential Irish recruit the same question. No would be the answer. Ask any British recruit what ****e hole he may end up in he ll start reaming off the places he could end up in

British squaddies are on crap money . Google tells me you have to be an NCO with a trade gets 35 k . A normal soldier has to get to the rank of staff Sargent to get to that level.

http://www.armedforces.co.uk/armypayscales.htm

I don't think you can compare an Irish soldier to a british soldier or a Us soldier
We ll never enter into any armed conflict with anyone. I have no problem with that. I think we should respect the soldiers who died in service to the UN in the Congo and Leb . I don't know when the last Irish soldier died from coming under fire? I do think the Irish government have been cherry picking as to what UN mandated conflict to send our lads off to peace keeping. You only have to look at past atrocities on tv why aren't the UN and Ireland reacting to it. Fact we don't want to send Irish people into a dangerous conflict zone to be sent home in body bags . I'd actually would like to see Irish soldiers being sent off to enforce peace. That would be a good thing for those less fortunate.

In the meantime, you can at least sleep safely at night, knowing that even I, as a humble reservist, have still offered to give my life to save the likes of yours,


That'll never happen !!! Aliens will have landed and have taken over the armouries before you make it up to the barracks to pick up your steyr and 20 rounds of ammo


you may need us to help the gardai and emergency service to calm the tension and rioting in the streets

If the country suddenly went wallop and no was getting paid and 100 000 people marched on the dail . Soldiers and guards walloping their telescopic batons against their shields would have no effect on a mass group!!!

Do we need over 8000 soldiers . No we don't . Keep a small number for ceromonial duties. A certain number for natural disasters and Bomb disposal but this could be done by civilian police We need more resources for the navy really they are the only ones who can protect our only resource Fish. I'd rather see 3000 more guards on the beat...


Anyway don't be getting angry

[Morpheus]

My post and anger was solely directed at irishRedStar. Unlike Cambridge (whilst who's points I dont agree with, has nevertheless engaged in intelligent debate, outlining his/her beliefs about national defence and reasons why they have them) No, IrishRedStar came on here with NO backup to his points, just mindless shouting and shyte spouting. Yes I was trolled

[tac foley]

Originally Posted by benwavner

There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to serve in your countries military. War waging or not war waging. There is actually no point in trying to reason with a person like you.

You should have written this after his/her first post on the subject.

Ireland owes its very existence as a free and independent nation among free nations of the world to the Irish patriots who gave their lives to make it so.

No doubt having his/her citizenship taken away would not concern him/her overmuch. Perhaps it's time that those among you who would prefer to be something else should be given the option of leaving.

tac

[IrishFeeney92]

Originally Posted by cambridge

Our surface area, the size of our sea territories, we'd need 100000s of miliary people. We'd need to spend billions on tanks and jets and all that army jazz I'm sure you know much more than I. So essentially we should quit while we're behind, our army is a token gesture. Scale it back, replace it with equivalent civil ian organisations .

If god forbid somebody did try to invade our country or terrorise it, you people would be the first to give out about us having no army. people like you are never happy, and when I say people like you I mean bigots who slate the army because civilians dont see and visible results from the DF duties, call for them to be dismissed and then turn around and give out when something bad happens.

Dont feed the trolls eh........

[twinytwo]

Originally Posted by cambridge

It's inherently stupid. You were born in this country by fluke. Flags are just pieces of material, borders just lines on a map.

I laugh at sad little people like yourself... you could leave and move to another country??... things too cushy for you here though??.. maybe it is because you couldnt join the PDF, you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

People dont fight for flags, they fight for what the flag represents.

if fighting did have to be done, you would be the one standing at the back expecting everyone else to do it for you.

[darkhorse]

[QUOTE=twinytwo;79119996]I laugh at sad little people like yourself... you could leave and move to another country??... things too cushy for you here though??.. maybe it is because you couldnt join the PDF, you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

Maybe he should look at syria and decide if that would suit him as regards action.