Dublin Bus Mythbuster

Tickityboo · 22-10-2014 3:04pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

My point exactly.

It's not a little corner shop I work in I have to deal with multiple people in quick succession paying cash, using TOPPED UP leap cards, showing f.t.passes.
Other people looking for information.
Oh yeah! and trying to keep an eye on the traffic around me so if they want to present a receipt to me I will gladly take a look otherwise I don't have the time.

SameDiff · 22-10-2014 3:53pm

s8080 wrote: »

You will be delighted to know this forum has developed a bit of a cult following in the dublin bus canteen.
The hate for dublin bus drivers that jumps off the screen is palatable, along with the complete ignorance of how things work, some really don’t have the foggiest idea how real world is.

I wonder how long I would last in my place of employment if I spend my lunchtime commenting on the "complete ignorance" of those who pay my wages.

Dublin Bus drivers think they are doing us a favour, always have and always will.

TheBandicoot · 22-10-2014 4:31pm

SameDiff wrote: »

I wonder how long I would last in my place of employment if I spend my lunchtime commenting on the "complete ignorance" of those who pay my wages.

Have you never worked in retail? :rolleyes: People in customer-facing jobs the world over complain about "those who pay [their] wages" at lunch all the time..

MagicMarker · 22-10-2014 4:46pm

Tickityboo wrote: »

It's not a little corner shop I work in I have to deal with multiple people in quick succession paying cash, using TOPPED UP leap cards, showing f.t.passes.
Other people looking for information.
Oh yeah! and trying to keep an eye on the traffic around me so if they want to present a receipt to me I will gladly take a look otherwise I don't have the time.

Excuses.

Up to 10 times a day someone might say to you 'I just topped up my leap card' and not once have you ever asked to see a receipt. How much time does asking a question take? You really expect me to believe you're so busy that you can't do that? How many times do you slow down on your route to have a quick chat with a driver driving the other way?

You don't ask the question because you simply couldn't give a toss. At least be honest about it.

Tickityboo · 22-10-2014 5:22pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Excuses.

Up to 10 times a day someone might say to you 'I just topped up my leap card' and not once have you ever asked to see a receipt. How much time does asking a question take? You really expect me to believe you're so busy that you can't do that? How many times do you slow down on your route to have a quick chat with a driver driving the other way?

You don't ask the question because you simply couldn't give a toss. At least be honest about it.

Oh I give a toss believe me!!
Which is why I ensure I get as much money for my company as possible.

I can't recall ever stopping my bus to have a social chat with a driver going the other way except to ask about a diversion or a ticket roll.

If someone can't be arsed to look at the machine screen to look at their balance every time they use it they're going to come a cropper at some stage and then if they get a free ride sure they'd never bother topping up!!

Asking a question takes time away from processing my other customers tickets delaying everybody.

The question is why do people let it completely run out in the first place?

Why do they not keep an emergency fare just incase something goes wrong?
Answer they couldn't be arsed!!!

Dravokivich · 22-10-2014 6:16pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

What kind of analogy is that? Not having change is clearly not the same as having essentially pre-paid for a service and then being denied said service!!

The issue is with the driver and dublin bus, they're the ones that are trying to get people to use a leap card, so they should most definitely be trying to help those who are affected when it doesn't work properly.

The person who is not at fault in the scenario described is the customer. Is some basic customer service really too much to ask for?

Its not an analogy, it was a question with a similar scenario, where the o ly difference was in the scenario i outlined, bith leople can see the customer has nothing to pay for the service with. Also... why go away from the shop where something was bkught but not obtained? It doesnt become someone elses issue to sort just becuase its a leapcard and gets used on the bus, luas, train. Which is why I said, for how long should someone be able to travel off having nothing.

jamesbondings · 22-10-2014 6:33pm

You should be able to top up on the bus, not in a shop where you have no idea if it has been put on until you get to the bus and you are refused!!!!

you should be able to rely on a service and with db and leapcard you cannot

Shedite27 · 22-10-2014 6:59pm

s8080, in the following picture, do you see.....

(a) A clear road
(b) A cyclist
(c) 100 points

Muahahaha · 22-10-2014 7:28pm

I'm not a fan of Dublin Bus but to be fair in many years of using it the drivers are pretty good and given the grief they have to put up with I think overall they do an excellent job. I agree with the OP that a certain set of passengers are total chancers who want free or cheap travel and fair play to them for dealing with it because if they didn't we'd all be paying even higher fares.

There is a minority of drivers on DB who wouldn't be the friendliest towards passengers with questions, I have seen some tourists given the cold shoulder treatment when a bit of friendlyness would have been in order. But I emphasise that this is a minority of drivers.

My main gripe with DB is the way management run it. Overall the service seems to work well 95% of the time. But as soon as the rain comes along or there is an unexpected event or traffic jams then frequency of service can go downhill rapidly and there never seems to be any back up or contingency plans in place for these circumstances. Communications to customers about delays are non-existant and buses come and go from the RTP1 system making it even more confusing.

Finally finishing buses at 11.30pm in the city centre is just too early. The Luas goes to 12.30am and seems to do ok. Anytime I'm on the last 140 of the night its always pretty full so its pretty evident that putting even a midnight bus on would be of service to people. Its mad to think we live in a European capital but can't commute around it on buses after 11.30pm.

JayRoc · 22-10-2014 7:56pm

s8080 wrote: »

you do know you dont have to have any interaction with the driver.
Use a Leap card and get information on a journey on your smart phone or PC.

Interaction with the driver is unfortunately a requirement of the leapcard unless travelling all the way. Bad for the driver, bad for the customer, bad for the dwell times

Tickityboo · 23-10-2014 1:35pm

Had a very quiet morning this morning passenger wise.
Still managed to get 4 people with empty leap cards!!

Luckily for them 3 had spare change and one managed to get change off someone on the bus and that was a quiet morning :-(

foggy_lad · 23-10-2014 1:56pm

JustAddWater wrote: »

Not saying you, but have seen cases where the bus driver says, ain't my problem, basically, walk home and deal with it.
Issues happen and some drivers seem to be lacking any sympathy to people with problems

Driving a bus is on part of the job. Dealing with customers seems to be forgotten as another part of the job

Driving and dealing with customers by loading and unliadingnthem is one thing but being a priest/social worker/mother to them is something completely different! Sympathy is not part of any bus drivers job especially when someone is not even a passenger because they can't buy a ticket!

foggy_lad · 23-10-2014 2:06pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

This is poor customer service. What the driver should say is "As you only topped up your leap card 10 minutes ago, you must still have the receipt detailing the transaction and the correct balance, would you please hand it over so I can inspect same?"At which point the customer hands it over, and the driver allows the customer onto the bus as a gesture of good will, understanding that sometimes these things happen.

The only problems with your posts s8080 is that you seem to think drivers are infallible, and are never at fault.

The driver is not allowed to let anyone travel free out of good will! If the customer is not able to manage a leap card they should probably not travel alone.

LXFlyer · 23-10-2014 6:01pm

s8080 wrote: »

The current ticketing equipment was purchased by Dublin Bus, not the NTA.
NTA keep loading new products on leap, it cannot cope, see previous post as to why the NTA/government are happy with this massive loss of money and under reporting of passenger numbers

As for passenger numbers, they are nowhere near the levels they were at the height of the boom, and really to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
Who do you believe the NTA or your lying eyes?
On a per bus/driver basis dublin bus are carrying as many as they ever had. The ticket machine are not recording these passengers as they stop working a lot, passengers are carried for free and not counted.

Just as a housekeeping point - can you please use the quote function - it's really difficult to follow what's your post and the one you're replying to!

Numbers have indeed increased in recent times, but remember there are 100 less buses in the fleet, services cut back in frequency and other routes withdrawn altogether. There's a hell of a difference between saying that record numbers are being carried, which you did originally, and then saying that on a per bus/per driver basis numbers are as strong as they ever were.

s8080 wrote: »

Dublin Bus are permitted to apply to the NTA to operate additional services - there is nothing to stop them doing that, other than a lack of available buses and drivers.

Dublin bus cannot put on extra buses, NTA must approve , facts are they don’t approve.

Have you evidence that Dublin Bus have made submissions for service changes to the NTA to have them rejected, or is that the canteen rumour mill?

s8080 wrote: »

Big exaggeration is lack of drivers and buses.
Remember the reduced service during summer, some routes running a 80% normal week day service. While you where waiting in the rain and seeing bus after bus pass you at the stop full, those 20% drivers where in the depot watching TV. NTA would not allow them to be put to work as extras on busy routes. They spent the whole summer watching TV.
Pre NTA dublin bus would have these drivers doing extra works where needed in the city.

Happens all the time , a problem with the bus it has to be taken out of service and brought back to the depot to be changed.
Driver goes up to inspector
D- i need a new bus, xxx has a problem.
I- wait there i will give you a bus as soon as one come into the yard
D- there are 10 buses lined up against the wall over there,, can i take one?
I- sorry you can’t, they are not to leave the yard, orders of the NTA.
Pre NTA driver would have been given bus in yard straight away to get back to work.

No doubt dublin bus had/has problems but the NTA is not the white knight riding to the rescue a lot here seem to think.

I must have been imagining all the journeys that were cancelled during this summer and previous ones due to driver shortages then. Please don't tell me that didn't happen, as I know for a fact it did. I suffered from it myself, and reading posts here and tweets on the Dublin Bus twitter account back that up.

You don't need the full service in the summer that operates during the rest of the year due to the significant reduction in morning peak numbers of passengers. By and large the capacity seemed to match demand. The problems happened when departures were cancelled due to there being no driver to operate them.

The summer changes were an internal Dublin Bus decision in order to cut costs - they make that decision and applied to the NTA for their approval.

s8080 · 23-10-2014 6:32pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Have you evidence that Dublin Bus have made submissions for service changes to the NTA to have them rejected, or is that the canteen rumour mill?

heard from the horses mouth so to speak. been trying to change since last year. new terminus for 145, slight route changes , both would result in a better service.
NTA will not give permission.

s8080 · 23-10-2014 6:42pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I must have been imagining all the journeys that were cancelled during this summer and previous ones due to driver shortages then. Please don't tell me that didn't happen, as I know for a fact it did. I suffered from it myself, and reading posts here and tweets on the Dublin Bus twitter account back that up.

never said buses where not cancelled, you where told because of driver shortage.
Explain drivers in depot watching TV for the summer.
Drivers from routes with reduced service , where available to work where needed, NTA prefer the drivers stay in depot and watch TV.

Shortage of buses,afraid not, next time during rush hour go by donnybrook look into yard, many buses parked up. Shed beside N11 buses lined up inside. Broadstone plenty parked up there. NTA will not alow these buses to used.
NTA is not the white knight coming to the rescue many believe.

s8080 · 23-10-2014 6:47pm

lxflyer wrote: »

J
Numbers have indeed increased in recent times, but remember there are 100 less buses in the fleet, services cut back in frequency and other routes withdrawn altogether. There's a hell of a difference between saying that record numbers are being carried, which you did originally, and then saying that on a per bus/per driver basis numbers are as strong as they ever were.

Who are you going to believe the NTA or your lying eyes?

buses packed , people left at stops all over the city.
the numbers the NTA give say not happening. The reason the numbers are wrong is ticket machines stop working a ridiculous amount of times , people travel for free on bus and these passengers are not counted.

LXFlyer · 23-10-2014 6:48pm

s8080 wrote: »

never said buses where not cancelled, you where told because of driver shortage.
Explain drivers in depot watching TV for the summer.
Drivers from routes with reduced service , where available to work where needed, NTA prefer the drivers stay in depot and watch TV.

Shortage of buses,afraid not, next time during rush hour go by donnybrook look into yard, many buses parked up. Shed beside N11 buses lined up inside. Broadstone plenty parked up there. NTA will not alow these buses to used.
NTA is not the white knight coming to the rescue many believe.

If you are saying that scheduled buses were cancelled (i.e. Buses in the summer schedule) due to driver shortages while drivers from the same depot were sitting in the canteen, then I'd say that is an internal Dublin Bus issue and sounds like shocking management of resources.

Well the buses in the yard are only as a result of the new SG Deliveries that are arriving which are deemed replacement buses. It is up to DB management to apply to the NTA to operate additional services using the withdrawn buses or to sell them - we are only now getting to the point where expansion of services might be considered.

In turn operating more buses costs more, and money may not be there to operate them.

LXFlyer · 23-10-2014 6:54pm

s8080 wrote: »

Who are you going to believe the NTA or your lying eyes?

buses packed , people left at stops all over the city.
the numbers the NTA give say not happening. The reason the numbers are wrong is ticket machines stop working a ridiculous amount of times , people travel for free on bus and these passengers are not counted.

There's no need to insult me - I don't drive so I use DB every day across the city, and I can see how heavy loadings are. But finances are still a serious problem, and it boils down to whether there is enough money to expand the service.

This is ultimately an issue for Dublin Bus management and the NTA to resolve.

At the end of the day it's up to DB to apply to operate additional services, but only if they're affordable.

Cookie_Monster · 23-10-2014 9:14pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well the buses in the yard are only as a result of the new SG Deliveries that are arriving which are deemed replacement buses. It is up to DB management to apply to the NTA to operate additional services using the withdrawn buses or to sell them - we are only now getting to the point where expansion of services might be considered.

not only as a result of any deliveries. I got a bus past donnybrook every day for 5 years and every day there would be at least 10-20 buses sitting in the yard at 8-830am, probably twice that in the evenings on the way back at about 530 -600

LXFlyer · 23-10-2014 9:30pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not only as a result of any deliveries. I got a bus past donnybrook every day for 5 years and every day there would be at least 10-20 buses sitting in the yard at 8-830am, probably twice that in the evenings on the way back at about 530 -600

So are you saying that there are not supposed be any maintenance cover in the event of a bus breaking down?

You can still have buses starting after 08:00 as well.

Also the area at the back of Donnybrook was where withdrawn buses were stored.

Bear in mind that Donnybrook is two depots in one location.

There are never as many buses out in the evening as in the morning. Peak demand is in he morning. Some buses would be out earlier to over for schools and can finish earlier.

s8080 · 23-10-2014 9:32pm

lxflyer wrote: »

If you are saying that scheduled buses were cancelled (i.e. Buses in the summer schedule) due to driver shortages while drivers from the same depot were sitting in the canteen, then I'd say that is an internal Dublin Bus issue and sounds like shocking management of resources.

Well the buses in the yard are only as a result of the new SG Deliveries that are arriving which are deemed replacement buses. It is up to DB management to apply to the NTA to operate additional services using the withdrawn buses or to sell them - we are only now getting to the point where expansion of services might be considered.

In turn operating more buses costs more, and money may not be there to operate them.

Wrong on both accounts, drivers remained in depot on orders of NTA, so dont try blame dublin bus management.
Buses have been parked up in depots city wide on the orders of the NTA long before the contracts for SG buses where signed.

LXFlyer · 23-10-2014 9:34pm

s8080 wrote: »

Wrong on both accounts, drivers remained in depot on orders of NTA, so dont try blame dublin bus management.
Buses have been parked up in depots city wide on the orders of the NTA long before the contracts for SG buses where signed.

I think not somehow.

s8080 · 23-10-2014 9:37pm

lxflyer wrote: »

There's no need to insult me - I don't drive so I use DB every day across the city, and I can see how heavy loadings are. But finances are still a serious problem, and it boils down to whether there is enough money to expand the service.

This is ultimately an issue for Dublin Bus management and the NTA to resolve.

At the end of the day it's up to DB to apply to operate additional services, but only if they're affordable.

im sorry , did not intend to insult.

Riddle me this, the biggest costs for dublin bus are payroll and fuel.
Staff have not had a pay rise since 2007 in fact have had pay cuts, oil has dropped from $150 a barrel to $80.
Fares have risen,Buses are packed city wide yet dublin bus is in financial trouble!
How?

s8080 · 23-10-2014 9:46pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

not only as a result of any deliveries. I got a bus past donnybrook every day for 5 years and every day there would be at least 10-20 buses sitting in the yard at 8-830am, probably twice that in the evenings on the way back at about 530 -600

lxflyer wrote: »

So are you saying that there are not supposed be any maintenance cover in the event of a bus breaking down?

You can still have buses starting after 08:00 as well.

Also the area at the back of Donnybrook was where withdrawn buses were stored.

Bear in mind that Donnybrook is two depots in one location.

There are never as many buses out in the evening as in the morning. Peak demand is in he morning. Some buses would be out earlier to over for schools and can finish earlier.

You can only see the buses in the yard, the shed that runs along the N11 is full of parked up buses.
You say maintenance cover in the event of a bus breaking down, did i not explain earlier these buses are not allowed to leave the yard under orders of the NTA.
Bus brought back to depot by driver because of fault.
Driver told by inspector to wait until bus comes back to depot before he get change of bus.
Yard has buses fueled and ready to go, but cant under orders of NTA.
Bus comes into yard, driver who has been hanging around gets right into the seat still warm from other driver and goes back to work.

s8080 · 23-10-2014 9:50pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I think not somehow.

im afraid it really is that simple.
Its shocking and thats why you are having a hard time believing.

The NTA is there to prepare the market for private operators, its has no concern for the passengers.
Have a look at the ESB analogy i posted earlier to make sense of it all.

devnull · 23-10-2014 10:33pm

s8080 wrote: »

The NTA is there to prepare the market for private operators, its has no concern for the passengers.

Actually the NTA has a lot more concern for passengers than was the case before it existed, just take a look at transportforireland.ie and all the services it provides exactly for the passengers you claim it has no concern for, many of which the country was badly crying out for, for many years and the operators certainly didn't show much interest in some of the things the NTA have done.

Before the NTA there were bigger issues with political interference and the regulation on operators was way too light touch. The NTA are a much better regulator since in general they see the bigger picture of public transport in this country, whereas in the transport regulation powers that be were little more than downtown offices of CIE.

I'm not surprised Dublin Bus staff don't like them however, because it has resulted in things being a bit less cushy and easy going for the company and them needing to be more accountable for things and don't have the regulator in their pocket anymore which means people stuck in their ways need to embrace change. Staff clearly don't like the fact they're no longer deemed as important as they were in the past and clearly don't like it.

The problem in the past was that things were done to suit the state companies and their staff with Bertie handing blank cheques all the time rather than making the company more efficient. The fact is many of the changes in Dublin Bus that have improved the company in the last few years were long overdue since the bus service was very much behind the times. The fact is, as other posters have said their are still a fair few problems within Dublin Bus which need to be resolved by Dublin Bus.

Although what I've noticed from the last few weeks on here with Irish Rail as well, is that when something goes wrong or something bad happens, it is ALWAYS someone elses fault, there is always some excuse and never the companies fault. It's quite amusing really, since neither company is anything like perfect, but their employees seem to think so and whilst things are like that nothing will ever improve.

dfx- · 24-10-2014 2:23am

lxflyer wrote: »

As for passenger numbers, they are nowhere near the levels they were at the height of the boom, and really to suggest otherwise is disingenuous. Numbers are at last increasing again, which is great news, but what is different this time is that as a result of Network Direct there is much better matching of capacity to demand, with overcapacity eradicated, which means that as passenger numbers start to rise again, many buses are fuller than before. This was achieved by eliminating many of the routes that duplicate one another and cutting frequency back. The next stage will be to see services start to expand again, with the focus on the "super" routes (the cross-city services that focus on QBCs - e.g. 15, 16, 27 etc.).

The 16, a Network Direct creation, suffers enormously from dwell time, capacity and frequency issues. It's not helped by being operated by luggage rack buses further decreasing capacity and are of no relevance to the southside southbound operation. At least GTs are kept away from the route. It can often be found sitting on Dame St southbound or George's St southbound for as long as it does on O'Connell St northbound.

I was on AX627 tonight at OCS and there were 2 seats filled upstairs. By Dame St, there were no seats upstairs, standing room only downstairs.

A victim or perhaps indicator of full bus syndrome?

Cookie_Monster · 24-10-2014 2:58am

s8080 wrote: »

Wrong on both accounts, drivers remained in depot on orders of NTA, so dont try blame dublin bus management.
Buses have been parked up in depots city wide on the orders of the NTA long before the contracts for SG buses where signed.

this is well before the NTA ever existed

lxflyer wrote: »

So are you saying that there are not supposed be any maintenance cover in the event of a bus breaking down?

no, but how much cover do you need, do they honestly think they need 7-10% of the fleet in reserve for breakdowns. About 200-250 hundred odd buses present in Donnybrook by then. This is in addition to those out of service in the sheds.

You can still have buses starting after 08:00 as well.

Of course, but predominantly those already out and about

Also the area at the back of Donnybrook was where withdrawn buses were stored.

brand new VT's and all?

Bear in mind that Donnybrook is two depots in one location.

what difference does that make, still x out of a total of y buses.

There are never as many buses out in the evening as in the morning. Peak demand is in he morning. Some buses would be out earlier to over for schools and can finish earlier.

Understandable.

Muahahaha · 24-10-2014 6:08pm

JayRoc wrote: »

Interaction with the driver is unfortunately a requirement of the leapcard unless travelling all the way. Bad for the driver, bad for the customer, bad for the dwell times

I still find this bizarre that they invested millions in Leap and had numerous delays with all sorts of software problems and at the end of it we have a card that still needs a driver to use valuable dwell time punching in journey details.

s8080 wrote: »

Wrong on both accounts, drivers remained in depot on orders of NTA, so dont try blame dublin bus management.
Buses have been parked up in depots city wide on the orders of the NTA long before the contracts for SG buses where signed.

Can you explain this is more depth ? If the NTA are deliberately holding back buses and effecting the service the public receive all while drivers are being paid to watch TV in the canteen then surely this is a scandal for the media ? Why haven't drivers or Dublin Bus management been kicking up publically about it?

Dublin Bus Mythbuster

Comments