Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

lord lucan · 18-12-2009 4:46pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It is not like that at all. Dublin is bloated and dying. It is ravaged by crime, drugs and hen parties and is literally falling into the Irish Sea. It is a hellhole which brings the rest of the country down in the eyes of the world. No more development or infrastructure should be built in Dublin. Building metros is just throwing petrol on the fire.

A new Ireland west of the Shannon on a clean slate is a quality idea. Rather than the current situations of our people being banished to the reservation outside an extended Pale.

Now you're taking the piss!!:p

ClovenHoof · 18-12-2009 4:50pm

Dublin 4 mentality on this board.

I am not getting involved in this thread anymore - the regional bigotry is shocking. But be warned there are more of me than there is of you. What got started on this thread will be finished with sleepers, rail and ballast all the way to Derry.

Amtmann · 18-12-2009 4:51pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It is not like that at all. Dublin is bloated and dying. It is ravaged by crime, drugs and hen parties and is literally falling into the Irish Sea. It is a hellhole which brings the rest of the country down in the eyes of the world. No more development or infrastructure should be built in Dublin. Building metros is just throwing petrol on the fire.

A new Ireland west of the Shannon on a clean slate is a quality idea. Rather than the current situations of our people being banished to the reservation outside an extended Pale.

In all seriousness: Why don't you just lobby for independence? You even say you have your own peculiar, virtuous culture in "the west", which, you claim, the rest of us don't understand. With respect, everything you've written here is totally preposterous. You've displayed nothing but woolly idealism, and you clearly lack even a basic understanding of how infrastructure should be prioritised, delivered and operated.

Cool Mo D · 18-12-2009 4:52pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

It is not like that at all. Dublin is bloated and dying. It is ravaged by crime, drugs and hen parties and is literally falling into the Irish Sea. It is a hellhole which brings the rest of the country down in the eyes of the world. No more development or infrastructure should be built in Dublin. Building metros is just throwing petrol on the fire.

A new Ireland west of the Shannon on a clean slate is a quality idea. Rather than the current situations of our people being banished to the reservation outside an extended Pale.

You're a funny man, I'll give you that! Have you ever actually been to Dublin? Some of us are quite happy living here, even if we do spend each day fearing for our lives with marauding bands of hen parties running around, sticking L-plates and devil horn hairbands on everyone. But I'm sure if we all slathered our hair in brylcreem, learned to kick a gaelic football, and started eating our dinner in the middle of the day before moving at least 100 miles west, all the countries ills would be cured!

Sponge Bob · 18-12-2009 4:54pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

I am not getting involved in this thread anymore - the regional bigotry is shocking. But be warned there are more of me than there is of you.

Is that you Nostradamus ????

corktina · 18-12-2009 7:08pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

But be warned there are more of me than there is of you.

all i can say is "dan da dan dan!!!!"

Aard · 18-12-2009 8:00pm

What does the West have to say about this report: http://www.thefuturesacademy.ie/sites/default/files/Twice_the_size_Final_Report.pdf ? Without Dublin, the rest of the country fails. Choking it in order to "revitalise" the West a false economy, to put it mildly.

westtip · 18-12-2009 8:40pm

Calina wrote: »

There is no justifiable reason to force closure of these ports to support a port in Belmullet.

regional balance? I am quite surprised but Mr. Hoof is speaking some sense on this issue.

Calina · 18-12-2009 10:10pm

Could we perhaps get back onto the subject of the Western Rail Corridor?

T Corolla · 18-12-2009 11:34pm

Aard wrote: »

What does the West have to say about this report: http://www.thefuturesacademy.ie/sites/default/files/Twice_the_size_Final_Report.pdf ? Without Dublin, the rest of the country fails. Choking it in order to "revitalise" the West a false economy, to put it mildly.

I will never read all that report but the first page tell so much

dermo88 · 19-12-2009 12:00am

Oh good Lord. Is Clovenhoof actually a genuine poster. If I observe the phrase "Argumentum ad hominem, then its Alan Helfner. However, so far, he is behaving like Brian Guckian, but has even crazier ideas about the development of rail transport.

I then see rather misguided lines such as

"Addressing regional inbalance between the Pale and the rest of the country is not a justifiable reason? Be realistic now. The only reason we still have Shannon and Knock is forcing the dead hand of Dublin to losen its selfish grip.

You do not seem to get just what a shower of cute hoors we can be out here when we want something"

The next thing:

http://www.newcityforthewest.com

I assure you, that is some cuckoo land idea from the boom era. Its gone, and its not coming back. If you want economic development, the best chance Mayo has is probably through gambling, hookers, cheap booze and cheap fags. You'll get the tourists in. Repeal the smoking ban, have 24 hour drinking, we MIGHT go to Mayo. But I'll probably be read off the pulpit by the Bishop of Tuam or Father Mac Greail. Who knows, it might even finance his railway.

Your argument that Dublin is bloated and dying is FALSE. Dubliners get less money per capita spent on it than spent on Mayo. It has fewer votes per capita than Mayo. People will live and work where the money is, where they need to work. People will not work and live just because some Cuban ba$tard rejects Grandson believe that there should be development West of the Shannon, but development done by the wrong method. Its crazy. How DARE you have the audacity and cheek to call Dubliners selfish considering the 2,000 Euro NET per annum in transfers per capita that go to Mayo. Meanwhile, Dubliners paid 6,000 Euro per annum at the height of the boom. So can you at least have the courtesy to remove the plank from your eye and say "Thanks", because frankly, when it comes to Mayo, I'd rather say "So long and thanks for all the fish"

The majority here have 5 to 6 years of experience dealing with traditional West of Shannon arguments. Many, such as the former Nostradamus live in the West. Calina lives in Cork (if not mistaken). We are not all Dublin based, so be forewarned. The reference to "Dublin 4 mentality" is the Mayo equivalent of Goodwins Law. Again, you will be discredited.

Your views, are symptomatic of the GAA Jersey mentality that has plagued this country since Independence. County first, nation second, and lets screw Dublin and the Pale harder. As a Dubliner with relatives in the country, who are involved with rural affairs in their community and are involved in their respective local economies I stand and say

"Nation first, county second, sensible policy best"

Dreaming of reviving the West has been an economic dream since the foundation of Ireland. You don't see the Norwegians building a new Capital near Bergen or Stavanger? Are the Portuguese proposing a new Lisbon?Are the Greeks proposing reviving Olympia of old? Your idea is like some third world satire from Sani Abachas Nigeria.

Guess what Oyibo....I'd sooner trust an e-mail from a Nigerian 419 scam merchant than trust any regional development policy spawning from the West judging by its record over 80 years. And that, my friend is a savage indictment of the region and its leaders.

And the Western Rail Corridor, NORTH of Athenry is the oversized Baby that threatens to kill its mother at Childbirth if it is born. It would be a financial caesarean section to the future of investment in the Irish Railway network. The future argument would be:

"We invested X00 Million in the WRC. It carries less than 100 people per day. It loses X Million per annum. We will not invest anymore in the rail network"

If your arguments had any rational Clovenhoof, then I would be happy to agree with you. Unfortunately, I am not alone, and I would politely recommend that you open a new account, because although you are entitled to your views, they are not respected. Now.....enjoy your shell, I'd recommend hiding there for a a very long time. Never have I seen a poster discredited so quickly.

dowlingm · 19-12-2009 4:09am

@Clovenhoof : re - your post (#80) two pages back.

Trains, be they DMUs or pull-only or push-pull, require fuel. Rail/wheel/diesel mass transport tends to be more efficient on balance than tyre/road but only once you reach a breakeven load factor. Also, even where peak services are packed to the doors, counter-peak and mid-day services often drag down the overall figure for a given trainset. The point being - when you look at gCO2/passenger-km for trains start looking less and less environmental. It's only in the case of electric rail that sustainability gets a clean win, and then only in cases where the marginal increase in power demanded by the service can be supplied from renewable sources.

Without calculating this for the service as proposed, it's hard to claim that it adds to overall sustainability if, and this is entirely possible, an average passenger on a full bus between Limerick and Galway emits less CO2 than a train passenger - considering recently a two car 2700 was carrying 8 people from Ennis to Limerick.

Hungerford · 19-12-2009 12:02pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Without calculating this for the service as proposed, it's hard to claim that it adds to overall sustainability if, and this is entirely possible, an average passenger on a full bus between Limerick and Galway emits less CO2 than a train passenger - considering recently a two car 2700 was carrying 8 people from Ennis to Limerick.

In fairness, that's an atypical load for that line - probably due to the time at which that incident happened. I could probably find a few almost empty trains on the Maynooth or Northern lines at that time if you asked me to.

I have used the Ennis line at other times and patronage is quite good.

serfboard · 19-12-2009 1:19pm

Hungerford wrote: »

In fairness, that's an atypical load for that line - probably due to the time at which that incident happened. I could probably find a few almost empty trains on the Maynooth or Northern lines at that time if you asked me to.

I have used the Ennis line at other times and patronage is quite good.

Agree with this but it begs the question - why is there a service between Limerick and Ennis on a weekday at 12:30 PM? The whole point of rail should be to move large amounts of people quickly. Ennis->Limerick is presumably only busy at peak times during the week, with a more even spread of passengers at the weekends.

I'd rather the train driver stayed in Limerick drinking tea, then to take a train carrying eight people. Specially since there is a hourly bus service from Limerick station to Ennis anyway. Are mid-week off-peak services from Limerick to Ennis being provided simply to give the train drivers something to do?

Sponge Bob · 19-12-2009 1:33pm

serfboard wrote: »

Are mid-week off-peak services from Limerick to Ennis being provided simply to give the train drivers something to do?

58 train drivers are currently based in Limerick and Galway between them ( perhaps including Limerick Junction but perhaps not)

Cool Mo D · 19-12-2009 1:44pm

serfboard wrote: »

Agree with this but it begs the question - why is there a service between Limerick and Ennis on a weekday at 12:30 PM? The whole point of rail should be to move large amounts of people quickly. Ennis->Limerick is presumably only busy at peak times during the week, with a more even spread of passengers at the weekends.

I'd rather the train driver stayed in Limerick drinking tea, then to take a train carrying eight people. Specially since there is a hourly bus service from Limerick station to Ennis anyway. Are mid-week off-peak services from Limerick to Ennis being provided simply to give the train drivers something to do?

If the driver is paid and ready, the train is there, and the line is ready, and the stations are open, there are almost no savings to be made by not running the train. And the problem with cutting off peak services, is that it makes people less likely to use the train at all, as people generally value the possibility of making trips at times that may be unusual, even if they never do.

The point is that if a place deserves a train service, it should get a proper one. If it doesn't justify a proper service, it shouldn't get any at all - as it will have large fixed costs and people won't use it.

Kingdom · 19-12-2009 5:07pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Anything which can go on a truck can also go by train. If tax exemptions were made to allow shippers to install sidings to their warehouses or purchase even goods vans this would change the dynamic which is government policy favour of the lorry.

It makes good social and environmental sense. We have a whole generation growing up in Ireland which has been deluding into thinking that goods do not go by rail. This to me has been a design from the moment the Dublin Government told CIE to scrap the locomotives. Bertie was practically down at Spencer Dock himself with the blow torch.

When we have a level playing field then you'll get you answer!

Remind me again, just how many Dubs are in the cabinet?

Kingdom · 19-12-2009 5:10pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

A new Ireland west of the Shannon on a clean slate is a quality idea. Rather than the current situations of our people being banished to the reservation outside an extended Pale.

Sounds almost Cromwellian to me!

Calina · 19-12-2009 5:45pm

Mod Note:

Please get back on topic or *more* bans will ensue for offtopic posting and trolling.

Hungerford · 19-12-2009 6:28pm

serfboard wrote: »

Are mid-week off-peak services from Limerick to Ennis being provided simply to give the train drivers something to do?

I wouldn't call the Limerick to Ennis service as being remotely excessive. It's well-used and there are just three off-peak trains each way. In fact, it's probably a model in terms of how IE should run such relatively rural services.

The driver would still have to be paid anyway and the cost of running the service seems pretty minimal so I can't see what the issue is.

Cool Mo D · 19-12-2009 6:37pm

Hungerford wrote: »

I wouldn't call the Limerick to Ennis service as being remotely excessive. It's well-used and there are just three off-peak trains each way. In fact, it's probably a model in terms of how IE should run such relatively rural services.

The driver would still have to be paid anyway and the cost of running the service seems pretty minimal so I can't see what the issue is.

It could be improved by joining Rosslare - Waterford - Limerick Junction; Limerick Junction - Limerick; Ennis - Limerick; and Limerick - Galway to run as one direct service where possible, instead of 4, with poor connections. More journey possibilities, with the same number of services for the same cost would be good!

corktina · 19-12-2009 9:23pm

that amkes sense, inaddition there needs to be a regular service pattern of around a train an hour in order to build up a clientel, anything short of that isnt really worthwhile..

dowlingm · 20-12-2009 5:21am

Cool Mo D wrote: »

If the driver is paid and ready, the train is there, and the line is ready, and the stations are open, there are almost no savings to be made by not running the train.

Except in fuel and environmental impact. A 2700 is 42 tonnes (wiki), a 2750 is 44 tonnes (RAIU report). Taking the lower figure, a two car 2700 set is 84 tonnes net of payload. Moving 84 tonnes is something that consumes quite an amount of energy.

An Expressway bus clocks in at what, something like 10 tonnes net or so? Any bus folks out there?

In a full vehicle scenario - 50 passengers on a bus is about a third of gross weight (assuming 90kgs/passenger), 117 passengers on a train is 10-15% of gross weight (about 10 tonnes out of 94).

This is very rough figuring based on open source figures and not taking into account fuel weights etc. Because of the different engine types and the more efficient driving modes available in a segregated alignment over mixed traffic I would not expect a fully linear relationship between gross vehicle weight and fuel burn. I would be delighted if someone could improve on them.

What really bugs me is when IE deadhead in daytime. If the train is moving anyway, it should be carrying passengers - even on an express basis from the origin to the last station before the depot. This is the opposite problem - the train is rolling, burning fuel, but makes no revenue at all. Even if they only made a stop or two it adds frequency to the timetable and adds options for passengers.

dowlingm · 20-12-2009 6:21am

One further point on the post above though. Where I live, there is a regional rail/bus company (GO Transit). Basically at peak times trains run (3000/4000hp loco+ 6-12 push-pull double deckers, up to 1800 seats per set) and counterpeak/offpeak buses run the same corridors as well as providing feed from areas outside the reach of the train network.

The service is slowly expanding from local service (< 80km) to regional service (< 140km) with trains pushing into closed lines or lines that lost passenger service in prior cutbacks, currently being served by bus but with high demand levels.

On an operational basis, GO Transit brings in revenue of 80-90% of costs, requiring subvention of the remainder. By contrast, Irish Rail in 2006 had revenue of 228m Euro and operating costs of 431m - less than 55% revenue/costs. Salaries alone were 260m. (Page 21 of IE 2006 Annual Report).

GO Transit can manage its capacity using rail and bus - Irish Rail can't. Irish Rail must be permitted to run buses either themselves or in cooperation with Citylink or Aircoach to match demand to capacity, as well as serve customers in areas where rail is not currently present and sufficient demand to reinstate not proven. This is a point I've made before but I honestly believe it's the only way that Irish Rail can survive in the long term without getting a billion Euro handed to them every four years to keep them afloat.

corktina · 20-12-2009 9:17am

what a good idea...we could integrate bus and rail....make them work together...what would we call it? Irish Transport Company perhaps...now what is that in Irish I wonder?:rolleyes::D

Chris_533976 · 20-12-2009 11:14am

How is the flooding at Kiltiernan going? Is the line still underwater?

westtip · 20-12-2009 12:28pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

How is the flooding at Kiltiernan going? Is the line still underwater?

good point and if it has subsided to only a shallow amount of water has it now frozen and likely to cause ice damage.

westtip · 20-12-2009 12:32pm

Calina wrote: »

Whether it was suggested by the British Admiralty or not 150 years ago is of zero relevance to now. The truth is it might have been more useful as a naval base to them than it is as a commercial port right now.

In any case I stand over the comments that road infrastructure and industrial demand for a deep water port in Belmullet does not exist now.

Build it and they will come.

Carawaystick · 20-12-2009 2:14pm

Hungerford wrote: »

I wouldn't call the Limerick to Ennis service as being remotely excessive. It's well-used and there are just three off-peak trains each way. In fact, it's probably a model in terms of how IE should run such relatively rural services

Have you any idea of how many passengers were carried during the last week? Or will be carried next week, or the week after?
Well used alright.
At least parts of the wrc north of Athenry get well used by people driving across it to get into their driveways.

corktina · 20-12-2009 2:33pm

um that would be none none and oh wait...none....unless you count canoeists

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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