Surprised by Enda Kenny?

[Deleted User] · 21-03-2012 11:21am

I love the fact that people seem to think that Enda is out to get them, or pull the wool over their eyes, or do something nasty along those lines.
But then they go and trust people like (we know were you live) Gerry Adams, and (I'm not saying if my children have private health insurance) Joe Higgins.

I'm seriously perplexed as to whether people are actually stupid enough to believe that FG have it in for Ireland, or if the socialist cheerleaders have just learned to shout louder and shout often

I see lots of posts against the household charge, complaining out about austerity. Well geniuses, where else is the money going to come from to pay the dole and public services?

I've either gotten cleverer, or my fellow countrymen have gotten waaay stupider.

K-9 · 21-03-2012 11:27am

jank wrote: »

Percisely how did the mess it up and how would you have done it better?

They had up to a year before the election to have some plan and when they got elected it became an issue after a few months. The Civil Service have known about it since before the bailout so I'm not buying the blame for them. They should have went with the scheme they are planning to introduce next year which has some grading aspect and fairness built in. At this stage you aren't going to blame FG or Labour for ballsing this up, that much is clear, and instead ram it through when 80% haven't paid it and a huge chunk have no intention to.

That is subjective. People who own a home must pay the household charge. If you dont own a home you dont pay it, if you do, you must. Fair enough to me. Of course when the rates will increase a progressive system will be implimented. Which "may" be more fair. As I said fairness is subjective.

That's subjective, what isn't subjective is the mess they've made of it politically and its a big political hot potato for them to deal with in the next few months.

jank · 21-03-2012 12:23pm

K-9 wrote: »

They had up to a year before the election to have some plan and when they got elected it became an issue after a few months. The Civil Service have known about it since before the bailout so I'm not buying the blame for them. They should have went with the scheme they are planning to introduce next year which has some grading aspect and fairness built in. At this stage you aren't going to blame FG or Labour for ballsing this up, that much is clear, and instead ram it through when 80% haven't paid it and a huge chunk have no intention to.

That's subjective, what isn't subjective is the mess they've made of it politically and its a big political hot potato for them to deal with in the next few months.

First, they weren't in government up to a year before the last election, that is a strawman argument.

It became an issue because a payment had to be introduced as per the bailout agreement.

Tell me if the civil service are so great then why dont we know the exact details of this "grading and fairness".....?
We still dont know how the government are going to calculate the full property tax, yet they have been talking about it for the past 3 years. So ya, the civil service's lack of efficiency are partly to blame for this

OK, I understand that it is an deeply unpopular issue but it was going to be that anyway, regardless of what they they were going to do, or how the approached it. I honestly cant see anything they could have done different that would not have made it such a big issue. The ULA crowd were always going to jump up and down on this even if the charge was 10 euro rather than 100.

I just dont see the big balls up that people are talking about.
A big balls up was the lack of bank regulation, a big balls up was NAMA, a big balls up was the bank guarantee. Asking people who own a house to pay 100 euro as a property tax is not a balls up. It "may" have been implemented differently, smoother and all that but the huge non payment thus far and the opposition to it was always to be this severe.

Voodoo_rasher · 21-03-2012 1:09pm

"..a couple of traders on the wall street trading floor who seemed pretty impressed"

so they should be. He was pandering to them after all.

Below is part of his speech to the parasites of Wall Street

(Ref: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-prime-minister-sells-unbeatable-package-on-Wall-Street-143458416.html)

“This is an annual occasion when the eyes of the world are on Ireland and I’m pleased to be associated with the launch of Ireland Inc on Ireland Day 2012."

So how does it feel to no longer live in a republic but a corporation!! We're not Irish individuals but economic units it seems!!

"They said they would facilitate the creation of 100,000 jobs over four years". Creating jobs my eye, we're 'importing jobs not creating them! There is a difference.
Importing multi-lingual jobs that requires speakers of Arabic and African languages for crying out loud!

K-9 · 21-03-2012 2:28pm

jank wrote: »

First, they weren't in government up to a year before the last election, that is a strawman argument.

It became an issue because a payment had to be introduced as per the bailout agreement.

Tell me if the civil service are so great then why dont we know the exact details of this "grading and fairness".....?
We still dont know how the government are going to calculate the full property tax, yet they have been talking about it for the past 3 years. So ya, the civil service's lack of efficiency are partly to blame for this

OK, I understand that it is an deeply unpopular issue but it was going to be that anyway, regardless of what they they were going to do, or how the approached it. I honestly cant see anything they could have done different that would not have made it such a big issue. The ULA crowd were always going to jump up and down on this even if the charge was 10 euro rather than 100.

I just dont see the big balls up that people are talking about.
A big balls up was the lack of bank regulation, a big balls up was NAMA, a big balls up was the bank guarantee. Asking people who own a house to pay 100 euro as a property tax is not a balls up. It "may" have been implemented differently, smoother and all that but the huge non payment thus far and the opposition to it was always to be this severe.

Look, you aren't going to accept FG and Labour made a huge mess of it and how they back down from it is the next big political task for Kenny.

It isn't even so much about the property tax as such, just the disastrous way they've handled it. That was always my criticism of the tax, I'm for it, but the inept handling of it gave people something to whinge about, 85% of people haven't paid it and we are 10 days away from the deadline.

PS. It wasn't part of the bail out, it was part of the FF 3/5 year plan document prepared a few months before that. Parties knew an election was likely imminent and property taxes was an issue, one which Kenny repeatedly fudged. Hogan has already outlined pretty detailed plans on how the tax could be designed next year, so it isn't as if they haven't thought about this!

The Civil Service don't issue plans like that, I suspect you know that very well, its just the usual diversionary tactic Governments use to blame somebody for inept handling of something, handy, because they can't really defend themselves publicly.

jank · 21-03-2012 3:13pm

K-9 wrote: »

Look, you aren't going to accept FG and Labour made a huge mess of it and how they back down from it is the next big political task for Kenny.

It isn't even so much about the property tax as such, just the disastrous way they've handled it. That was always my criticism of the tax, I'm for it, but the inept handling of it gave people something to whinge about, 85% of people haven't paid it and we are 10 days away from the deadline.

PS. It wasn't part of the bail out, it was part of the FF 3/5 year plan document prepared a few months before that. Parties knew an election was likely imminent and property taxes was an issue, one which Kenny repeatedly fudged. Hogan has already outlined pretty detailed plans on how the tax could be designed next year, so it isn't as if they haven't thought about this!

The Civil Service don't issue plans like that, I suspect you know that very well, its just the usual diversionary tactic Governments use to blame somebody for inept handling of something, handy, because they can't really defend themselves publicly.

Well it is a little disingenuous to say that they should have waited for the "fairer and more progressive" system to be implemented when we don't even know what that system even is yet.

I agree it will be a political problem, but it was always going to be so, the fact that you cant give a clear outline of proposals on how all this could be magically implemented without a whiff of opposition and full compliance by a willing public says it all and No saying not to implement it is a fudge

It was a no win situation for them. The media will have a ball as per usual, anything to kick the country while its down.

By the way, I am an ardent supporter of low taxes, would rather they slash and burn public spending before introducing this, but I do realise that some form of property tax is needed.

K-9 · 21-03-2012 3:48pm

jank wrote: »

Well it is a little disingenuous to say that they should have waited for the "fairer and more progressive" system to be implemented when we don't even know what that system even is yet.

We do have an idea, Hogan himself outlined a proposal a few months back, it shows they have thought about it so I am not buying it!

I agree it will be a political problem, but it was always going to be so, the fact that you cant give a clear outline of proposals on how all this could be magically implemented without a whiff of opposition and full compliance by a willing public says it all and No saying not to implement it is a fudge

Exactly my point, you knew it was going to be a difficult task, they've just gone and made it far harder through a fudge.

Sorry, should have stated way back, I'm broadly in agreement with Hogans outlined plan, about as good as you'll get, I'm in favour of the tax, not the shambles that they've made of this.

It was a no win situation for them. The media will have a ball as per usual, anything to kick the country while its down.

The meejia, the Civil Service, the ULA, who else will you blame except FG?

By the way, I am an ardent supporter of low taxes, would rather they slash and burn public spending before introducing this, but I do realise that some form of property tax is needed.

I don't mind low or pretty high taxes as long as they are roughly in line with Government expenditure!

Anyway, don't really want to hog a thread that is more general than this.

RichardAnd · 21-03-2012 4:04pm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

I love the fact that people seem to think that Enda is out to get them, or pull the wool over their eyes, or do something nasty along those lines.
But then they go and trust people like (we know were you live) Gerry Adams, and (I'm not saying if my children have private health insurance) Joe Higgins.

I'm seriously perplexed as to whether people are actually stupid enough to believe that FG have it in for Ireland, or if the socialist cheerleaders have just learned to shout louder and shout often

I see lots of posts against the household charge, complaining out about austerity. Well geniuses, where else is the money going to come from to pay the dole and public services?

I've either gotten cleverer, or my fellow countrymen have gotten waaay stupider.

Well I love, how some people that support the household tax believe that their position gives them the right to condescend to those that do not without paying heed to why that is so. I wonder if you actually believe that the household tax will aid the state or is your position simply born from a desire to play the supercilious intellectual?

I think that in the final sentence of your post, my answer can be found.

[Deleted User] · 21-03-2012 4:25pm

RichardAnd wrote: »

Well I love, how some people that support the household tax believe that their position gives them the right to condescend to those that do not without paying heed to why that is so. I wonder if you actually believe that the household tax will aid the state or is your position simply born from a desire to play the supercilious intellectual?

I think that in the final sentence of your post, my answer can be found.

The last line was written tongue-in-cheek!

I have absolutely no problem with the people who oppose the household tax on the grounds that bugger all has been cut and instead they must now pay. They hold a position that is in direct contrast to the household charge.

Now, there seem to be an awful lot of SWP, SF, ULA, ODS type people who are against paying the tax. This seems, to me, to kind of go against their whole ethos. I mean, it's a tax on equity. Yet here they are, arm in arm with property investors who are up to their neck in 10 properties! Strange bedfellows, etc.

I see paying the tax as the lesser of two evils. We voted for FG and Labour - Some cuts, and some taxes. This is a tax, so that we can continue to pay decent rates of welfare and pay to the unemployed and PS.

It will hopefully lead to a stabilisation of tax receipts in the future, so that we may someday hope to balance our budgets for slightly more than a couple of years in a row.

I'll forgive the personal stuff, I probably didn't explain my position adequately.

yourpics · 21-03-2012 4:27pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

They said they would facilitate the creation of 100,000 jobs over four years. Is it really fair to judge him on this basis barely over a year into his term? If so, how could he have been expected to create these jobs, and what kind of jobs would they have been?

What about the job bridge scheme? Kenny & Co could have designed this better to insure that interns are not exploited and earn a reasonable wage. This in turn would allow the intern to spend more money in the economy.
Kenny was well able to create jobs for his advisers and friends.
Why doesn't he give up 100K of his salary and use it to create 4 jobs? A simple gesture that would speak volumes about him as a person.

tayto lover · 21-03-2012 4:51pm

darkman2 wrote: »

lol - looks like Enda just copied one of O'bama's speeches again at the reception tonight:D

Out and out parrot.

johngalway · 21-03-2012 9:53pm

What I like most about Enda is that he is positive.

RichardAnd · 22-03-2012 9:38am

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

The last line was written tongue-in-cheek!

I have absolutely no problem with the people who oppose the household tax on the grounds that bugger all has been cut and instead they must now pay. They hold a position that is in direct contrast to the household charge.

Now, there seem to be an awful lot of SWP, SF, ULA, ODS type people who are against paying the tax. This seems, to me, to kind of go against their whole ethos. I mean, it's a tax on equity. Yet here they are, arm in arm with property investors who are up to their neck in 10 properties! Strange bedfellows, etc.

I see paying the tax as the lesser of two evils. We voted for FG and Labour - Some cuts, and some taxes. This is a tax, so that we can continue to pay decent rates of welfare and pay to the unemployed and PS.

It will hopefully lead to a stabilisation of tax receipts in the future, so that we may someday hope to balance our budgets for slightly more than a couple of years in a row.

I'll forgive the personal stuff, I probably didn't explain my position adequately.

I may have a been a little terse, so I apologies. I'm honestly just upset by the manner in which people choose to "debate" on these boards. Way too many posters talk down to those that don't agree with them in a totally churlish manner and it's quite taxing. It seems I read something in your post that was probably meant in a nonchalant manner.

john reilly · 22-03-2012 11:25pm

Godge wrote: »

I couldn't agree with you more:D.

If people were educated enough to understand that the crisis was brought about by a combination of ten years of stupid FF policies on spending and taxation, a poorly regulated banking system, an international downturn, a monumentally stupid decision of the FF government in September 2008 to guarantee the banks and most of all, the stupidity of the Irish electorate both in continually re-electing that FF government and also indulging themselves in an illogical frenzy to become propety owners whatever the price.

That education combined with a course to direct their anger away from the people sorting out the mess (the current government) and to working out the issues rather than casting blame.

The OP is right, Kenny has done well, we are further down the road to recovery than I thought possible when they were elected.

i hope this is sarcasm. they have achieved nothing and are carrying on with the policies of .f.f if you think that we are getting out of the mess then you should thank f.f. I personally think the recession is overated. the big problem is unemployment and despite their promises f.g have made a momentus cock up in that regard

john reilly · 22-03-2012 11:26pm

johngalway wrote: »

What I like most about Enda is that he is positive.

he can afford to be on his wages and generous pension plan

Bullseye1 · 23-03-2012 12:35am

Petrol in the mid 1.60's, Diesel now hitting 1.60, VAT 23%, commercial rates still too high, Nama running hotels at rates that other hotels cannot compete, upward only rents still the norm, household tax in, property tax coming next year, water charges coming in (what exactly are our taxes now paying). What have FG done in the first year of government for the domestic economy? Putting their eggs in one basket, exports.

I won't give my final verdict until their term in government is up in four years time but from a purely domestic economic POV it's been a very poor showing from the current government.

Wider Road · 23-03-2012 2:07am

Why was Enda seen with Denis O'Brien?

Worztron · 26-03-2012 10:47pm

The man is a gom. No doubt Enda Kenny will completely ignore these when kowtowing and brown nosing his way around China. What a disgrace.

http://www.thejournal.ie/tibetan-exile-sets-himself-on-fire-at-china-protest-396414-Mar2012/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120427/Tibetan-protester-sets-demonstration-ahead-Chinese-presidents-visit-India.html

K-9 · 26-03-2012 11:15pm

Worztron wrote: »

The man is a gom. No doubt Enda Kenny will completely ignore these when kowtowing and brown nosing his way around China. What a disgrace.

http://www.thejournal.ie/tibetan-exile-sets-himself-on-fire-at-china-protest-396414-Mar2012/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2120427/Tibetan-protester-sets-demonstration-ahead-Chinese-presidents-visit-India.html

What's a gom?

In fairness to him, probably most leaders of Western countries are on that basis.

Worztron · 26-03-2012 11:23pm

K-9 wrote: »

What's a gom?

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gom

K-9 wrote: »

In fairness to him, probably most leaders of Western countries are on that basis.

It is still disgraceful.

K-9 · 26-03-2012 11:47pm

Worztron wrote: »

It is still disgraceful.

Indeed, and I'd hope he would at least raise the issue publicly but I'm not holding my breath, given other bigger countries disinterest, particularly when a recession is on! Trade usurps human rights even moreso these days!

jank · 27-03-2012 1:31am

What can Enda seriously do regarding this situation. Do you think the Chinese would take any credance if he spoke out against whats happening in Tibet?

He is on a trade mission, simlple as.

RATM · 27-03-2012 2:18am

One incident which solidified in my mind that the guy has no class or gravitas on an international stage and is quickly turning into an embarrassment is thus:

"The Irish people went mad borrowing"

Ask yourself when would you ever hear the word 'mad' coming from the lips of Barack Obama or David Cameron or any other western leader ?

Using the word 'mad' is simply not the language of diplomacy on an international stage. It made him look like he has a limited vocabulary and he was more like acting on an episode of Father Ted, rather than addressing the Economic Forum in Davos.

Apart from that little insight I genuinely don't believe he knows what he is doing. Like I know he is going abroad a lot "Ireland is open for business" and trying his best on that front. But he, like most other politicans, just doesn't get the fact a nation of 4.5 million people own a debt of €250bn. His emphasis should be on debt write off but instead it is on announcing 50 jobs here and 30 jobs there. And in the meantime our debt gets pushed out to 2040 or 2050.

Enda just wants to do at least one full term, preferably two though, provided Tricky Dicky doesn't crop up again. He is a career politican who has been waiting for the chance to be Taoiseach for more than 30 years. Like Bertie he will do anything to hold on to that power.

And if that means keeping the troika sweet and kicking our debt can down the road for another few decades then Enda will do it because he'll be long gone from office by the time a majority realise what he has done, which is to make a bad situation even worse.

[Deleted User] · 27-03-2012 12:33pm

RATM, perhaps with your excellent knowledge of all things business and international markets you should consider entering onto the world stage in some way. We'll all be millionaires in the morning, eh?

Show us how it's done! OR, maybe you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Maybe

Eggy Baby! · 28-03-2012 1:43pm

What always surprises me is how high Ireland ranks on the corruption (high meaning less corrupt) ratings and on the income equality ratings. Are these people paid off or what?

Or maybe Ireland isn't that bad when compared to other countries, I dunno.

Ireland these days seems to be a single-party state, with the "Crook Party" taking 100% of the vote.

Ask yourself when would you ever hear the word 'mad' coming from the lips of Barack Obama or David Cameron or any other western leader ?

There is no reason to elevate these guys...they're just as bad as Kenny anyway.

tayto lover · 28-03-2012 6:52pm

johngalway wrote: »

What I like most about Enda is that he is positive.

A positive liar with all his broken election promises.

tayto lover · 28-03-2012 6:54pm

jank wrote: »

What can Enda seriously do regarding this situation. Do you think the Chinese would take any credance if he spoke out against whats happening in Tibet?

He is on a trade mission, simlple as.

I believe he was very angry that the Chinese had named a dynasty after Ming and nothing after him.

KIERAN1 · 28-03-2012 7:28pm

darkman2 wrote: »

German and French money is paying for a good chunk of our services now. Any Taoiseach would have to do the same. The idea is to get out of the bailout so they won't have to do that. Make no mistake about who are paymasters are. If you are suggesting Kenny should go to Europe and tell them to stuff themselves and we will do what we like......i'd suggest that would be a very dangerous thing to do in our fragile situation.

It often amazes me how Irish people over estimate our place and influence in the world. We have none. We are a tiny island of malcontents on the edge of the Atlantic. If I was Merkel I would not give a damn about us either. We are actually irrelevant even in an EU context similar to a fly on the windowsill. They can live without us, we can't live without them. Many people in this country still need to get real about how desperate our situation is. We have no leverage anymore. Beggars can't be choosers.

http://www.nowvideo.eu/video/84fc53bfa73f6

Enda Kenny is doing the only thing he can do which is trying to keep a straight face when he meets these people due to the embarrasingly dire situation we find ourselves.

Did the majority of Irish citizens cause this financial mess we are in: answer would be no. So why should the majority have to comply with the austerity measures that so far have been implemented?

EU banks loaned way to much to Irish banks and the people in those banks made crappy deals that ended up going bad and in some cases funnelled money illegally to other accounts for personal gain. Were in this do the Irish people come into this? This was a German and French problem not an Irish peoples problem. Do a few rich people running Irish banks constitute everyone living here?

Their only providing the bailout in the know we are going to pay them for their screw up longterm. They give and they take and charge interest while doing it s funny but true. What lovely bunch of bureaucrats we have running things for this country now. Its sad how few people view or care and are even mindful of this in everyday life. Make my words expect worse to follow as the elite know they can get away with it without too much fuss from the citizenry of Europe.

This household charge is now considered by some politicians in FG as been an obligation we have to pay it. An obligation to pay a tax on your property? The failures of this country were caused by politicians and bankers and who this people represent really is my question. It certainly aint the ordinary people who live day by day on the industrial wage.

Sand · 28-03-2012 10:52pm

KIERAN1 wrote: »

Did the majority of Irish citizens cause this financial mess we are in: answer would be no.

Well, yes and no.

No, the majority of Irish citizens did not directly have any role or responsibility over the regulation of the banks, detailed economic planning, social partnership negotiations, benchmarking in the public sector or fiscal policy. And since none of the people who specifically did have direct roles or responsibilities have been held accountable at all in any shape or form, its not credible to hold the Irish people accountable.

On the other hand, the Irish citizens did have some vague responsibility to control their government. On this, Irish citizens did fail. And continue to fail. Of course, the Irish government simply ignores the Irish people and actively conspires with foreign governments to prevent Irish people from voicing an opinion on policies Ireland is being signed up to. The Irish people are faced with the terrible question posed by George Orwell: "What can you do against the lunatic who is more intelligent than yourself, who gives your arguments a fair hearing (...every few years...) and then simply persists in his lunacy"?

The people who try to press the "Everyone is responsible..." serve the "...So no-one is responsible" agenda.

RATM · 29-03-2012 1:13am

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

RATM, perhaps with your excellent knowledge of all things business and international markets you should consider entering onto the world stage in some way. We'll all be millionaires in the morning, eh?

Show us how it's done! OR, maybe you haven't a clue what you're talking about. Maybe

Where did I claim an excellent knowledge of business and international markets ? Where did I claim I could make us all millionaires ? And why are you trying to (unsuccessfully) put words in my mouth ???

Seems like my points on Enda Kenny hit a raw nerve with you Rojomcdojo - are you a Fine Gael sheep or something ?

If you disagree then at least debate the points I made rather than degenerating into juvenile posting.

Surprised by Enda Kenny?

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