Luke 'Ming' Flanagan & his band of merry turf cutters

joela · 04-03-2012 6:41pm #1

It appears that the Turf Cutters have made their way to Europe to the Commission, published a report and are their way to Dublin on Wednesday to protest their "right" to cut turf on the small number of raised bog SACs affected by ban. The report can be found on the TCCA website and Facebook page and does not appear to be composed of anything new. There certainly is none of the promised scientific arguements showing that all previous scientists were wrong and that the bogs can happily coexist with domestic turf cutting.

I can't upload the file as it is too large but if anyone is interested they can read it on the website and Facebook page but I'd suggest reading the FIE report as a counterbalance http://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.net/cmsfiles/files/library/fie_designated_raised_bogs_report_2011__final__25_may_2011.pdf.

This issue needs to be resolved finally by properly implementing the ban once and for all as this destruction has gone on far too long. The TCCA arguement is nonsense, this ban only affects a very limited number of sites and the ban was a long time coming. Luke Ming has to stop cherry picking the law and pretending he can take the high moral ground on issues when he blatantly disregards the law when it doesn't suit him.:mad:

mikom · 04-03-2012 6:46pm

joela wrote: »

Luke Ming has to stop cherry picking the law and pretending he can take the high moral ground on issues when he blatantly disregards the law when it doesn't suit him.:mad:

If you are referring to Lukes love of plant inhalation then all I can say is "Bad law is worse than no law".

henryporter · 04-03-2012 6:55pm

He's a right sod that Flanagan!

Seriously though it's incredible how these people can't see the damage they are inflicting on a highly unique and important environment. As usual they won't be happy until it's all gone and then they'll probably start hacking down whatever trees are left in the country. Muppets:mad:

joela · 04-03-2012 7:21pm

The worst thing is it for the short term gain of a few people and their supposed case is based on misinformation and misrepresentation of facts. It is not even all bogs in Ireland but a tiny percentage of protected sites.

theoneeyedman · 04-03-2012 7:28pm

joela wrote: »

The worst thing is it for the short term gain of a few people and their supposed case is based on misinformation and misrepresentation of facts. It is not even all bogs in Ireland but a tiny percentage of protected sites.

If you want to see widespread destruction of bogs and non enviornmentally friendly harvesting ofpeat look no further than bord na mona......amount of damage done by privateers is minimal in comparison

joela · 04-03-2012 7:42pm

Bord na Mona do not cut protected sites so that point is moot in this case.

TCCA continuously trot that out when it simply is not relevant in relation to SAC sites. Bord na Mona have destroyed much but they also had to hand back raised bogs sites to the state many years ago and so they are complying with the Habitats Directive at least in that sense. Domestic turf cutters have done and are doing plenty of damage and if they are not stopped by the Irish people then they will destroy very important habitat.

opinion guy · 04-03-2012 7:44pm

I don't know enough about this issue to take sides (though I lean away from Ming & co), but can I just say this - EPIC thread title OP.

mikom · 04-03-2012 7:49pm

joela wrote: »

Bord na Mona do not cut protected sites so that point is moot in this case.

TCCA continuously trot that out when it simply is not relevant in relation to SAC sites. Bord na Mona have destroyed much but they also had to hand back raised bogs sites to the state many years ago and so they are complying with the Habitats Directive at least in that sense. Domestic turf cutters have done and are doing plenty of damage and if they are not stopped by the Irish people then they will destroy very important habitat.

Those habitats will change completely once all cutting is stopped......... and maybe not for the better.
Some flora and fauna will increase, however others will decline as the land use shifts.
I forsee two other complications:
1. A change in drainage profiles as bogs will no longer be drained by their workers. So expect a few more flooding stories on your nightly news in the upcoming winters.
2. A massive increase in bog fly-tipping. "Shur, no one comes down here anymore boss".

Avns1s · 04-03-2012 7:58pm

henryporter wrote: »

He's a right sod that Flanagan!

Seriously though it's incredible how these people can't see the damage they are inflicting on a highly unique and important environment. As usual they won't be happy until it's all gone and then they'll probably start hacking down whatever trees are left in the country. Muppets:mad:

If you knew anything about how turf is cuf mechanically for a household, you would realise that it involves digging a hole of perhaps 10ft x 10ft and spreading the peat on the adjacent bog to dry.

Unfortunately this SAC lark as applied to the bogs is driven by those who can sit on their high horse on supposed environmental justification and none are likely to be affected by any such ban. If they were, their environmental morals would likely be re-evaluated.

I am no fan or support of Ming Flanagan but in reality the "damage to these unique and important habitats" by domestic turfcutting is minimal and does not justify the ban by a long shot.

mikom · 04-03-2012 8:08pm

Avns1s wrote: »

If you knew anything about how turf is cuf mechanically for a household, you would realise that it involves digging a hole of perhaps 10ft x 10ft and spreading the peat on the adjacent bog to dry.

Unfortunately this SAC lark as applied to the bogs is driven by those who can sit on their high horse on supposed environmental justification and none are likely to be affected by any such ban. If they were, their environmental morals would likely be re-evaluated.

I am no fan or support of Ming Flanagan but in reality the "damage to these unique and important habitats" by domestic turfcutting is minimal and does not justify the ban by a long shot.

Yep.

Goodbye this..... http://www.gardenplansireland.com/forum/about112.html

joela · 04-03-2012 8:09pm

okay I will say once more to read the excellent report I linked earlier which shows how DOMESTIC turf cutters have damaged the SAC bogs, I can also provide you with many, many links to papers and publications all saying that turf cutting (domestic or otherwise) damages the habitat.

Flora and Fauna diversity will increase which can only be a good thing, again I suggest you read some of the literature as opposed to TCCA stuff and nonsense.

Flooding will not increase due to drain blocking, it will decrease as the bog begins to hold water again so that arguement is that not correct at all.

As for fly tipping, it occurs anyway and is hardly a valid reason to allow cutting to continue.

If the ban were to affect me I would hope I was intelligent and reasonable enough to find out and understand the reasons why plus I would have had more than 10 years to figure out by now, Such BS always brought up, oh them environmentalists no nothing of the country blah blah blah.

joela · 04-03-2012 8:13pm

mikom wrote: »

Yep.

Goodbye this..... http://www.gardenplansireland.com/forum/about112.html

You honestly think that is what is happening on these bogs? Have a look at a few pictures from Ming's bog https://picasaweb.google.com/114566506932046014907/000600CloonchambersBogRoscommon?authkey=Gv1sRgCJXesumRhtW-wgE

mikom · 04-03-2012 8:17pm

joela wrote: »

You honestly think that is what is happening on these bogs? Have a look at a few pictures from Ming's bog https://picasaweb.google.com/114566506932046014907/000600CloonchambersBogRoscommon?authkey=Gv1sRgCJXesumRhtW-wgE

So what's happening on that bog http://www.gardenplansireland.com/forum/about112.html and the ones mentioned by Avns1s?

Avns1s · 04-03-2012 8:19pm

joela wrote: »

If the ban were to affect me I would hope I was intelligent and reasonable enough to find out and understand the reasons why plus I would have had more than 10 years to figure out by now, Such BS always brought up, oh them environmentalists no nothing of the country blah blah blah.

I am sure the turfcutters and residents of rural Ireland will bow to your superior intelligence.

To presume that these people are neither intelligent nor reasonable is about as condescending as one can get.

These people have lived in these areas for generations. Their ancestors cut these bogs for hundreds of years and funny enough, the bogs still exist and are worth protecting. Funny that isn't it?

Also, funny how some desk researchers probably from the city, with no connection to the countryside or even perhaps to Ireland, can publish a report which funnier again, will make no impact on their lives and seek to impose it on others.

Rural Ireland is where people live and have undertaken various tasks for generations, including turf cutting. Rural Ireland is NOT a playground or park where urban dwellers can come and look at the flowers or insects once or twice a year.

joela · 04-03-2012 8:37pm

Are you for real? I AM a country dweller and it has nothing to do with smelling flowers as you put it thereby displaying ignorance in such a comment, it has to do with protecting water quality, flood prevention, carbon sequestration and history. The history doesn't just belong to the people living there now it is part of Irish history and an important part and for that reason it is being protected.

Only a TINY proportion of sites are protected, tiny,tiny and the short term view of a minority of people is jeopardising the long term for the entire country. The bogs survived not thanks the people using them but inspite of them, the sausage machine/hopper method has increased the impact to such an extent now that the bogs are really suffering. Just because you always did it doesn't mean you should continue doing it, people always smoked because they didn't realise it was bad for them but they are widely dissuaded from doing so now, same with drink driving and wearing a seatbelt.

Your refusal to accept facts means that you cannot see that what is happening is destroying the very history you talk about. Also trotting out the usual codswallop about people at desks in offices and the townies not understanding the country etc. etc. I grew up on a farm, in a house with a septic tank and we used to burn rubbish. Now we don't burn rubbish, our septic tank has to be monitored and there are rules about spreading ****e into groundwater and rivers and there wasn't any of this as I was growing up. Guess what, sometimes change has to happen for the greater good and the turf cutting cessation on a TINY percentage of already protected bogs more than 10years after it should have been implemented HAS TO HAPPEN for the greater good.

henryporter · 04-03-2012 8:37pm

Avns1s wrote: »

If you knew anything about how turf is cuf mechanically for a household, you would realise that it involves digging a hole of perhaps 10ft x 10ft and spreading the peat on the adjacent bog to dry.

Unfortunately this SAC lark as applied to the bogs is driven by those who can sit on their high horse on supposed environmental justification and none are likely to be affected by any such ban. If they were, their environmental morals would likely be re-evaluated.

I am no fan or support of Ming Flanagan but in reality the "damage to these unique and important habitats" by domestic turfcutting is minimal and does not justify the ban by a long shot.

oh lets see, how do I start - ok I spent may years as a child footing turf with my family in Mayo (cos that's I'm from see), so anyone who comes along and says you can get a years supply of turf from a 10 by 10 plot is obviously talking through their hole.

Last time I was in a bog was with my Father back in 2005 about a month before he died - even he was disgusted at the vandalism being inflicted through the use of excavators (Hymacs or JCBs if you need to comprehend through the use of the vernacular), and other heavy transportation machinery.

Even the use of turf cutting machines (you obviously know the ones being such an expert) - those that vertically slice through the bog and spit out sausages of turf - 'great job' except for the fact that they cause collapse of the slices of bog.

Anyhow let me now how long you'll get out of that 10 x 10 plot, cos last time I check we used to use a half acre (or 2023.3 square metres which is roughly 20 times what you get by on). And do you know which end of a loy to pick up. Next time you shoot your mouth off imbecile, make sure you have a few facts right. IDIOT!

joela · 04-03-2012 8:41pm

mikom wrote: »

So what's happening on that bog http://www.gardenplansireland.com/forum/about112.html and the ones mentioned by Avns1s?

EXactly the same thing as shown in the report I linked in my OP. The EPA also did a report called Boglands recently http://erc.epa.ie/safer/iso19115/displayISO19115.jsp?isoID=236 which supports a cessation of turf cutting.

mikom · 04-03-2012 8:41pm

henryporter wrote: »

Next time you shoot your mouth off imbecile, make sure you have a few facts right. IDIOT!

Nice.

Avns1s · 04-03-2012 8:43pm

For who's good? The insects, flowers, foxes?

People have died from smoking for sure, but one thing is more sure, no-one is going to die anytime soon if there isn't a ban on turfcutting in the small proportion of bogs you talk about.

In fact, there may be people who will die because there method of heating their houses is removed from them.

joela · 04-03-2012 8:43pm

Well in fairness the other guy is being a bit belligerent so maybe that annoyed him?

Avns1s · 04-03-2012 8:44pm

henryporter wrote: »

oh lets see, how do I start - ok I spent may years as a child footing turf with my family in Mayo (cos that's I'm from see), so anyone who comes along and says you can get a years supply of turf from a 10 by 10 plot is obviously talking through their hole.

Last time I was in a bog was with my Father back in 2005 about a month before he died - even he was disgusted at the vandalism being inflicted through the use of excavators (Hymacs or JCBs if you need to comprehend through the use of the vernacular), and other heavy transportation machinery.

Even the use of turf cutting machines (you obviously know the ones being such an expert) - those that vertically slice through the bog and spit out sausages of turf - 'great job' except for the fact that they cause collapse of the slices of bog.

Anyhow let me now how long you'll get out of that 10 x 10 plot, cos last time I check we used to use a half acre (or 2023.3 square metres which is roughly 20 times what you get by on). And do you know which end of a loy to pick up. Next time you shoot your mouth off imbecile, make sure you have a few facts right. IDIOT!

I thought there was a rule in boards about attacking the post and not the poster. Post reported.

henryporter · 04-03-2012 8:49pm

Avns1s wrote: »

I thought there was a rule in boards about attacking the post and not the poster. Post reported.

I thought so too - so how come you start your post with "If you knew anything about..." and then run off like a baby to get the mods to defend your stupid comments?

joela · 04-03-2012 8:59pm

Avns1s wrote: »

For who's good? The insects, flowers, foxes?

People have died from smoking for sure, but one thing is more sure, no-one is going to die anytime soon if there isn't a ban on turfcutting in the small proportion of bogs you talk about.

In fact, there may be people who will die because there method of heating their houses is removed from them.

Well the flooding in areas may stop for a start, water quality for drinking may improve, the pollution from peat in the watercourses should improve things for fish amongst other things. The reduction in siltation from peat run-off should also help with flooding so all in all a lot of things positive for human health.

Yes the habitats are important because they support the bees and insects required to pollinate the fruit and veg, grasses, cereals etc. You keep trashing their habitat and eventually you have no pollinators and what you going to do for food production then? So yeah it is a big threat to human health in terms of the impact the actions of a few will have on the rest of us.

A bit of an exaggeration to say people will die if they don't cut turf isn't it? There is a)monetary compensation, b)turf provision from another bog, c)grant system with SEAI to insulate houses & change to alternative sustainable fuel supply such as wood. If you really care about the people you mention then I am sure you could get turf for them at one of the bogs where cutting is allowed?

mikom · 04-03-2012 9:02pm

joela wrote: »

Yes the habitats are important because they support the bees and insects required to pollinate the fruit and veg, grasses, cereals etc. You keep trashing their habitat and eventually you have no pollinators and what you going to do for food production then? So yeah it is a big threat to human health in terms of the impact the actions of a few will have on the rest of us.

The vast Bord na mona bogs never once grew heather....... I must have missed that in the report.

joela · 04-03-2012 9:11pm

Again the Bord na Mona bogs are a separate issue but I'll bite this once. The vast tracts of destroyed bog are indeed horrific but this damage was primarily done in the past and as I pointed out before Bord na Mona handed back all intact and protected bog sites many years ago. This issue surrounds SAC bogs so I didn't want to go into the wrongs and rights of other turf cutting but if you insist I will let you know that eventually I would hope that we as a people would recognise the unsustainable nature of turf cutting and it would cease all over the country. Bord na Mona are however at least being forced into the position of hiring ecologists to work on restoration and habitat creation on their sites. So heather has and will return in some places although sadly the bogs themselves are lost forever which is even more reason to properly protect the ones we have left.

To get back to the issue at hand the SAC bogs were chosen for their qualities as representing that particular habitat so why shouldn't they be protected from destruction. There are other bogs for goodness sake so why can't the people accept the change which they had plenty of warning about.

mikom · 04-03-2012 9:18pm

joela wrote: »

There are other bogs for goodness sake so why can't the people accept the change which they had plenty of warning about.

joela wrote: »

I will let you know that eventually I would hope that we as a people would recognise the unsustainable nature of turf cutting and it would cease all over the country.

*adopts native American indian voice*

"Conservationist paleface speaks with forked tongue."

joela · 04-03-2012 9:24pm

Don't be ridiculous for goodness sake, so I can't have an opinion? Do YOU think cutting bogs is sustainable? Ah maybe you are a climate denier as well? Whatever you are you are going to have to change because the Irish taxpayer should not have to pay fines to the EU because of a small minority refusing to acknowledge the law.

mikom · 04-03-2012 10:33pm

joela wrote: »

Don't be ridiculous for goodness sake, so I can't have an opinion? Do YOU think cutting bogs is sustainable? Ah maybe you are a climate denier as well? Whatever you are you are going to have to change because the Irish taxpayer should not have to pay fines to the EU because of a small minority refusing to acknowledge the law.

Calm down dear.

joela · 04-03-2012 11:15pm

Perfectly calm pet but thanks for your concern

mikom · 04-03-2012 11:38pm

joela wrote: »

Perfectly calm pet but thanks for your concern

Indeed.....

djpbarry · 05-03-2012 1:43pm

henryporter wrote: »

Next time you shoot your mouth off imbecile, make sure you have a few facts right. IDIOT!

[MOD]Less of the name-calling please.

I think everyone could do with cooling off a little before posting anything else.[/MOD]

Luke 'Ming' Flanagan & his band of merry turf cutters

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