Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

Sponge Bob · 28-12-2012 12:41am

sligotrain wrote: »

There's an emerging consensus here that the proposed greenway could be built parallel to the railway track to allow both to develop though maybe not at the same time.

I don't think this is possible along a light rail alignment myself but it is certainly worth the quick desktop study and report ......2 months max. Modern technology is great so a mobile phone warning system saying train is coming would make matters easier.

We can all achieve what we want working together so I would pick up the phone and speak to West on Track and agree how to achieve your aims together.

Look forward to the answer.

corktina · 28-12-2012 10:15am

The one thing I have learnt about WoT is that they want a train for no better reason than if Dublin can have money spent on Rail then they want it too. They cannot and will not conceive that a train and a cycleway can run side by side and they want to block the cycleway just so they can get their own way at some future time and have the rail line re-opened to carry pretty much noone at great expense to the whole country.

There is plenty of room for both generally, with pinch points at some bridges maybe (and there arent many of them, one of the problems of re-opening the line is all the myriad crossings...) which could easily be dealt with with lights if common sense to keep out of the way of a train wasn't enough.! Take a look at railroading in the US on youtube where you will find fully laden freights and even commuter and amtrak trains bowling along the main street in cities.

westtip · 28-12-2012 2:04pm

sligotrain wrote: »

There's an emerging consensus here that the proposed greenway could be built parallel to the railway track to allow both to develop though maybe not at the same time.

I think your frankly aggressive attitude however towards to the supporters of the WRC and some specific individuals does not help your case in any shape or form.

This is not nor should it be a WRC or Greenway debate. That does not help either sides of the argument. Instead we should be looking at ways of maintaining the route and discouraging further encroachments of the line.

We can all achieve what we want working together so I would pick up the phone and speak to West on Track and agree how to achieve your aims together.

Not sure about the emerging concensus, but there you go we can agree to differ on that one. I wouldn't have a problem with parallel greenway - as you know from files I have posted on this idea - the real problem would be the cost. You see the railway cannot be justified on capital cost and subvention costs - because as we all know (and I think there is a growing consensus on this one), there is no justification for the railway on any type of cost/benefit analysis. Therefore for the time being - the WRC is actually not worth debating in particular north of Claremorris (and if Varadkar is to be taken for his word, north of Athenry).

In terms of throwing the olive branch to West on Track and saying shall we work on this together - You are having a turkish bath aren't you? Did you hear what the priest said at the book launch about the GWG last month in Westport - he nearly had a dicky fit about the greenway idea.

Maybe its now that West on Track may be seeing the greenway/Railway argument as adding to their own argument - but I am afraid - the cost of the railway is simply too much to help the idea. For the cost of the white elephant from Ennis to Athenry we could have built almost an entire National cycle network of greenways - pray tell me what would of been of greater benefit to the national economy.

You said this This is not nor should it be a WRC or Greenway debate. Actually that is more or less what the argument is, and as the arguments in favour of the railway being re-opened are so far off the radar screen - it seems the only thing worth trying to get that is achievable is the greenway.

As for West on Track - they won't even go on the radio in local radio stations for an open debate on this subject - do you know why? because their arguments belong in another age and have all but been put in the bin by those in real authority.

sligotrain wrote: »

At last some reason - the cycle way and the railway could easily coexist.

By the way read this for West on Tracks conciliatory attitude http://www.westontrack.com/news244.htm

Here is the statement in full:

Councillors statement on Claremorris-Collooney railway

Press Release Thursday May 20th 2011

Following a meeting today of the Western Inter-County Railway Committee, a committee consisting of elected representatives of Clare, Galway, Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo County Councils, in Claremorris Co. Mayo, a statement was issued on the future development of the railway between Claremorris and Colloney.

"The Committee has considered the findings of an engineering survey of currently disused Collooney-Claremorris Railway. It is unanimous opinion of all the elected members present that the findings preclude the possibility of developing a greenway along or adjacent to the route of the proposed revitalized line"

A spokesman added that there had been a great deal of misinformed comment on this subject recently but it was now clear that such a greenway was incompatible with the future development of the railway.

The "misinformed comment" was a sideswipe at the rational arguments presented to councillors by SligoMayo greenway campaign, WoT definition of misinformed comment is more or less - If you don't agree with us you are misinformed. In an email they sent to all councillors at about the time this press release was put outthey claimed the greenway crowd were trying to take over the railway - as if they (WoT) had the ownership of the line, this is the problem - WoT have effectively tried to assume ownership of the line as "theirs", It's not their's it happens to be a public asset owned by you and I. The issue with WoT is they are finding it difficult now to present failed arguments, they have no real friends in Government, their seventh wonder of the world has been an abject failure and not lived up to any of their expectations and ludicrous forecasts, they are so out of touch with the realities of what infrastructure is needed in a modern economy, and I am afraid West on Track have a simple mantra: Railway or nothing. Go talk to them - LOL, we have tried, but I am afraid its a lost cause.

And now they are on the backfoot as people in the West are actually coming out completely independently of the sligo mayo greenway campaign - and totally unprompted - asking for a greenway to be put in place. WoT may never go away but their arguments are history. I mean it History.

Grass between the tracks · 01-01-2013 10:18pm

Interesting.

westtip · 02-01-2013 11:25am

Grass between the tracks wrote: »

Interesting.

Isn't it just.:D

sligotrain · 02-01-2013 12:50pm

Well interesting in the sense that a broken record can sound interesting I suppose.

corktina · 02-01-2013 1:31pm

if anything is broken, it's the WoT campaign

monument · 02-01-2013 1:52pm

Christmas TV was not all that entertaining so I mapped out the route and marked the crossing in Google Maps: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=203986226054652982108.0004d1c19b3a888f8eb39&msa=0

A few points and observations:

Most details need confirming

"Encroachment?" means encroachment or rerouteing maybe needed to restore line or make into greenway -- does not imply any wrong doing. Alignment may not be blocked in all cases -- includes where structure is close to track location.

There's at least 12 locations where there's something blocking or growing on the alignment or where's there's a house built very close to it.

There's at grade crossing of national roads in 7 locations, regional roads in 7 locations, local roads in 7 locations, minor roads in 40 locations and farm or house access roads in 26 locations.

Access roads tend to be country lanes with no overtaking room, but there's regional roads around these parts which are no better than local roads -- the there's blurring between the size and traffic levels on the different classes of roads. I marked anything below the officially marked local roads as 'minor' roads or access routes -- access routes were cul-de-sac routes to farms or houses.

There were the nearly same amount of bridged crossing in the ~25km between the Dublin-Galway mainline and Tuam as there was in the 90km or so between Tuam and the Dublin-Sligo mainline. South of Tuam it self, there was only two crossings at grade -- just one minor road and one access road to a single house / farm.

monument · 02-01-2013 2:15pm

After a quick look -- just added five access roads marking on the map, all at the north end before the Sligo line.

That's 92 at grade crossing of different types -- plus a three or four more I could not make out if they were bridged or just walkways etc, marked just a question marks.

You're close to 100 crossings in about 115km.

That's a far bigger deal for a railway than a greenway, but nothing is imposable, err... I guess.

serfboard · 02-01-2013 2:49pm

monument wrote: »

Christmas TV was not all that entertaining so I mapped out the route and marked the crossing in Google Maps: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=203986226054652982108.0004d1c19b3a888f8eb39&msa=0

Fantastic piece of work. I'd heard talk of encroachments on the line from people on this thread, but thanks to your work, google satellite and google street view, it's much easier to see what people have done, on land which, AFAIK, they do not own! The eye in the sky (and on the ground) has nailed ye folks!

This question is rhetorical, but is there any enforcement done by Council Planning Officials at all?

Fair enough, in some out of the way places the council may not be aware of it, but there are some easily accessible places where the carry-on is just shocking ... but not surprising.

westtip · 02-01-2013 5:14pm

monument wrote: »

Christmas TV was not all that entertaining so I mapped out the route and marked the crossing in Google Maps: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msid=203986226054652982108.0004d1c19b3a888f8eb39&msa=0

.

Thanks that is a great piece of work, It should be sent to all members of the western intercounty railway committee and the "elected members" can see the magnitude of the problem of even contemplating a railway on this route. I will certainly be sending it to Varadkar's department. It just goes to show how this project as a railway is a complete non starter.

sligotrain · 02-01-2013 5:48pm

I have no doubt the civil servants in the Department are looking forward to your next communication and ready to file it in the usual place

corktina · 02-01-2013 8:11pm

why don't you try to counter this document instead of sniping at Westtip?

foggy_lad · 02-01-2013 9:15pm

sligotrain wrote: »

I have no doubt the civil servants in the Department are looking forward to your next communication and ready to file it in the usual place

Why would they waste their time and public money on a railway alignment which will never be used as a railway again?

LivelineDipso · 02-01-2013 10:17pm

This thread:

westtip · 02-01-2013 11:41pm

sligotrain wrote: »

I have no doubt the civil servants in the Department are looking forward to your next communication and ready to file it in the usual place

You are probably right slow go train, but the message has already got through. They may even file it with those great works of fiction. West on Track press releases.

sligotrain · 03-01-2013 12:18am

corktina wrote: »

why don't you try to counter this document instead of sniping at Westtip?

Nothing to counter; we can see several examples of where the permanent way has been breached and as you would expect it seems a blind eye has been turned to the potential breaches.

I am curious as to why on one hand you would fork out a thousand euro on restoring an old steam loco yet seem to champion the destruction of a railway line.

Westtip spends enough time sniping here at named individuals as part of his campaign so surely he should take it if he dishes it out?

black47 · 03-01-2013 10:00am

westtip wrote: »

You are probably right slow go train, but the message has already got through. They may even file it with those great works of fiction. West on Track press releases.

What's with the 'slow go train' remark. Very petty

SeanW · 03-01-2013 10:36am

perhaps because he's advocating the reopening (at massive cost) of an old Victorian tramway that (you guessed it) will only run slow-go trains serving hardly anyone.

serfboard · 03-01-2013 10:54am

SeanW wrote: »

perhaps because he's not advocating the reopening (at massive cost) of an old Victorian tramway that (you guessed it) will only run slow-go trains serving hardly anyone.

FYP.

black47 wrote: »

What's with the 'slow go train' remark. Very petty

Petty it may be, but accurate it certainly is. Why spend 2 hours on a train from Limerick to Galway when you can do it in 1 hour 20 on a bus, which is cheaper, more frequent and has WiFi on-board?

westtip · 03-01-2013 10:58am

SeanW wrote: »

perhaps because he's advocating the reopening (at massive cost) of an old Victorian tramway that (you guessed it) will only run slow-go trains serving hardly anyone.

Indeed Sean W Slow Go Train would be exactly what you would get from Claremorris to collooney and with all those crossings along the line an average speed of maybe 25 mph tops. Well that's really going to compete with the bus isn't it.

Of course I am forgetting the huge amounts of freight that will be carried on this line (sic). The real opportunity for freight on this line will be buried about four foot underground as tetrabytes of information along the super technology highway this route could be used for - and potentially a gas pipeline as well, with happy tourists and locals trundling along safely in their traffic freezone four feet above them.

corktina · 03-01-2013 11:02am

sligotrain wrote: »

Nothing to counter; we can see several examples of where the permanent way has been breached and as you would expect it seems a blind eye has been turned to the potential breaches.

I am curious as to why on one hand you would fork out a thousand euro on restoring an old steam loco yet seem to champion the destruction of a railway line.

Westtip spends enough time sniping here at named individuals as part of his campaign so surely he should take it if he dishes it out?

I don't believe that advocating there is room for both a greenway and (maybe one day) a rail line is advocating it's destruction. I certainly would oppose it being restored to use at any time soon at huge expense like the southern section.
I think you really need to read what is said rather than what you THINK is said. For the record I am pro-rail and believe that WoT are a threat to the continued existance of some lines which are worth retaining (we've already seen the WRC used as a good excuse for closing Waterford to Rosslare...)

westtip · 03-01-2013 1:28pm

corktina wrote: »

I don't believe that advocating there is room for both a greenway and (maybe one day) a rail line is advocating it's destruction. I certainly would oppose it being restored to use at any time soon at huge expense like the southern section.
I think you really need to read what is said rather than what you THINK is said. For the record I am pro-rail and believe that WoT are a threat to the continued existance of some lines which are worth retaining (we've already seen the WRC used as a good excuse for closing Waterford to Rosslare...)

Well put as ever Corky, the greenway and possibly railway in the future is exactly how Sustrans have protected these long since disused alignments in the UK. the time may well come when any alignment protected in perpetuity because there was the vision to put a greenway down may actually need to revert to railway - the point has been well made. Just because someone is against the re-opening of a futile line like the WRC northern branch line does not make them anti rail. SligoTrain may may not accept this but actually I too am not anti rail investment - we need more rail investment where its needed. On our primary routes and in and around our one major urban area. The toys out the pram "its not fair Dublin has railway investment we must have it" just doesn't wash. Dublin needs railway investment. The West needs tourism infrastructure and high technology investment. This is the point that has to be continually hammered home.

sligotrain · 03-01-2013 2:11pm

I actually think we are closer in agreement than at first sight. I am not at all against the proposed greenway - though I think marketing Tubercurry as a world class cycling destination might be a bit of a tough sell.

I am realistic enough to realise that getting the railway back up and running on the Burma Road is a long term goal but I cannot and will not accept that slagging off supporters of the restoration of the railway is a mature and acceptable form of debate. Westtip is clearly passionate about his cause but I think that passion has often spilled over into personal snipes about the WoT group and that is not acceptable.

The advantage of the greenway proposal is that it keeps the alignment clear and available for potential future rail services, though as we have seen from the Google maps work the alignment may have been breached in places - though without confirmation from the relevant local authorities we don't know for sure.

However the debate here needs to be cooled down (and I am as guilty as anyone of chucking in barbs) and discussed in a rational way. Villifying named WoT supporters is not only damaging the credibility of the greenway proposals, it's petty and very childish.

westtip · 03-01-2013 4:33pm

sligotrain wrote: »

I actually think we are closer in agreement than at first sight. I am not at all against the proposed greenway - though I think marketing Tubercurry as a world class cycling destination might be a bit of a tough sell.

I am realistic enough to realise that getting the railway back up and running on the Burma Road is a long term goal but I cannot and will not accept that slagging off supporters of the restoration of the railway is a mature and acceptable form of debate. Westtip is clearly passionate about his cause but I think that passion has often spilled over into personal snipes about the WoT group and that is not acceptable.

The advantage of the greenway proposal is that it keeps the alignment clear and available for potential future rail services, though as we have seen from the Google maps work the alignment may have been breached in places - though without confirmation from the relevant local authorities we don't know for sure.

However the debate here needs to be cooled down (and I am as guilty as anyone of chucking in barbs) and discussed in a rational way. Villifying named WoT supporters is not only damaging the credibility of the greenway proposals, it's petty and very childish.

OK I take some of your comments on board. Re marketing Tubercurry as a world class cycling destination might be a bit of a tough sell. this is not the issue - Its the concept of the Sligo Mayo Greenway being part of a network you can enjoy a weeks cycling or walking on. As a place for a one night stay as part of a weeks cycling what's wrong with Tubercurry? This would not be the destination you have been sold - it would be the offering of come and enjoy a weeks hassle free (traffic free) cycling in the west of ireland. Newport and Mulranny weren't exactly hotbeds of cycling tourism now every car parked in the town seems to have a bike rack on the back of it.

I'm glad to hear you are realistic about the Burma Road. Personally I don't think it will ever happen - guess we all have to wait till 2016 for the next lot of pretty .pdfs to come out....then wait another ten years for nothing to happen. I wonder if this thread will still be going??

foggy_lad · 03-01-2013 4:45pm

westtip wrote: »

Indeed Sean W Slow Go Train would be exactly what you would get from Claremorris to collooney and with all those crossings along the line an average speed of maybe 25 mph tops. Well that's really going to compete with the bus isn't it.

Of course I am forgetting the huge amounts of freight that will be carried on this line (sic). The real opportunity for freight on this line will be buried about four foot underground as tetrabytes of information along the super technology highway this route could be used for - and potentially a gas pipeline as well, with happy tourists and locals trundling along safely in their traffic freezone four feet above them.

Realistically the only freight will be the drivers lunch and for one day only the flasks and lunches and notebooks of about 8 railway enthusiasts who I have no doubt are backing the reopening of this failed railway just so they can say they have travelled on it!

parsi · 03-01-2013 6:19pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Realistically the only freight will be the drivers lunch and for one day only the flasks and lunches and notebooks of about 8 railway enthusiasts who I have no doubt are backing the reopening of this failed railway just so they can say they have travelled on it!

Ah now the new line would add another market for the secondhand goods traders who use golden tickets to provide free delivery for the items they sell online,

Still and all that wouldn't be a reason to waste money on reopening the line.

eastwest · 03-01-2013 7:49pm

Here's the reality. The politicians have promised a railway to WOT -- a body that is heavily populated by FG councillors, so they can't back down on that.
They have also promised a greenway at various times; as I recall, Enda Kenny was at one time in favour of using the disused line as a greenway.
The perfect political solution is therefore to do nothing. In the interim, so much of the line will have been lost to squatters that neither option will be feasible. However no votes will have been lost, not even the votes of the squatters.
The fact that the route is not suited to a railway, or that a decent road is what the region needs, is neither here nor there. It's all about the next election, and they don't really care about employment or business opportunities for the people in Claremorris, or Collooney, or Charlestown.
Even the various campaigners for the railway haven't a clue; one of the leading lights in that organisation said recently on Midwest Radio that the Westport greenway had something that Claremorris didn't, i.e scenery!
If the guy is so blind to the beauty of his own area, given that he is the (albeit self-appointed) arbiter of public policy for Claremorris, what hope is there for the west?

sligotrain · 04-01-2013 2:28am

parsi wrote: »

Ah now the new line would add another market for the secondhand goods traders who use golden tickets to provide free delivery for the items they sell online,

Still and all that wouldn't be a reason to waste money on reopening the line.

What's all this talk about Golden Tickets? Has Willy Wonka been doing another promotion or have you been at the Sean Barrett Sherbet Dib Dabs?

The Idyl Race · 04-01-2013 12:44pm

sligotrain wrote: »

What's all this talk about Golden Tickets? Has Willy Wonka been doing another promotion or have you been at the Sean Barrett Sherbet Dib Dabs?

Think it's the Irish upper middle class addiction to vaguely right wing positions, so that they don't have to pay as much tax. Not dissimilar to the man I once worked for some years back, whose son went to Gonzaga and UCD, was in the Knights, admired Salazar and Charlie Haughey, and had a hard on for closing all the railways in the country because "everyone that matters has a car, and the bus is there for those too young or too poor to drive"

Western Rail Corridor (all disused sections)

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