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Blood on the hands of the Irish Criminal Justice System
Comments
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ResearchWill wrote: »What I am saying is that our constitution only allows remand in custody in very limited cases. If thoses cases are believed strong enough then AGS will put that evidence before a judge, if the judge believes it is strong enough bail will be refused. Bail would only be refused where there is good reason, if AGS try to refuse bail on a hunch then hundreds if not thousands of places would be needed. If we don't provide thoses places then convicted people will be left out of prison.
No you said above that decisions are made by AGS, DPP and judges in the knowledge that there is limited space. For example:AGS know that if too many remands are sent up to the prison then custody case will be left out.
You also suggested that judges are misinformed / ill-informed and over loadedAnd where does the judge get this information, dealing with 70 cases on a day in court how does he know.I will agree with the proposal re taxing the people making money in the criminal justice system, being AGS, lawyers, judges, prison officers etc., to pay for the system. As long as the Same tax is imposed on thoses working in the Health System to fund that. Also the education system. The only problem with your logic is that you would have to tax all such income at 100% and you would still be short money.
You misunderstand the proposal. I'm not saying that generally tax payers shouldn't contribute to the system, it should be funded as it is with an additional tax as top up. The justice system is not performing as required, the prison system needs updating and crimes committed on bail are unacceptably high. Even the defenders of the system (of which I think it is safe to include you Will) admit that the system is strained and under-resourced. Yet wages in the system from judges to legal representatives are high, people make a nice living out of the law. Many of these are private entities feeding off of a public system. They profit off a system they admit is under-resourced. There are similar instances of this in both health and education you are correct.
...it was more an off the cuff remark rather than a serious proposal.0 -
ResearchWill wrote: »What I am saying is that our constitution only allows remand in custody in very limited cases.
With the figures for crimes committed on bail it is obviously too limited - and we stray into the rights of society vs. the rights of the criminal*
I mean criminal here and not defendant in the sense that bail is not determined on the basis of previous criminal record (although instances of breaching previous bail is considered). A criminal in front of a judge for a bail hearing is allowed hide their criminal record but the use a positive character record is allowed.
It is quite clear from the examples in this thread that alternatives are being given where remand or prison should be the consequence. Extended bail in response to breach of bail, suspended sentences for serious crimes. And sentences are being shortened to avoid appeals.0 -
ResearchWill wrote: »Dole is not legally paid in prison.
Sorry I was thinking of stuff like this
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-prisoners-claim-millions-in-Social-Welfare-payments-124275389.html
Probably got it confused with the prisoner payments system. Recent changes in that saved €430,000 a year.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0427/prison-officers-governors-attacks.html0 -
Any person before a court on a bail hearing is innocent in the eyes of the law.Laminations wrote: »With the figures for crimes committed on bail it is obviously too limited - and we stray into the rights of society vs. the rights of the criminal*
I mean criminal here and not defendant in the sense that bail is not determined on the basis of previous criminal record (although instances of breaching previous bail is considered). A criminal in front of a judge for a bail hearing is allowed hide their criminal record but the use a positive character record is allowed.
It is quite clear from the examples in this thread that alternatives are being given where remand or prison should be the consequence. Extended bail in response to breach of bail, suspended sentences for serious crimes. And sentences are being shortened to avoid appeals.
Persistantly referring to anyone who has ever applied for bail as a "criminal" is nonsense.0 -
Any person before a court on a bail hearing is innocent in the eyes of the law.
Persistantly referring to anyone who has ever applied for bail as a "criminal" is nonsense.
I mean someone applying for bail who has numerous past convictions - so in that sense they are a criminal or ex-criminal would be the correct term maybe...
My point is that the innocent person at a bail hearing is allowed use their past if it supports their case for bail but if it doesn't support their case (if they are a criminal / ex-criminal) then this information is off-limits.0 -
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Perhaps 'suspect' is more appropriate?Any person before a court on a bail hearing is innocent in the eyes of the law.
Persistantly referring to anyone who has ever applied for bail as a "criminal" is nonsense.
It seems bizarre that your criminal record can't be considered in deciding what sort of threat you represent to the public if out on bail.0 -
Monty Burnz wrote: »It seems bizarre that your criminal record can't be considered in deciding what sort of threat you represent to the public if out on bail.
Ah no I am wrong on this. Sorry. I was assuming it in the same way jurors aren't privy to that information and thinking that far fewer would be released on bail if judges were being presented with this at bail hearings - but it is allowed to be presented, it must just be getting ignored....due to space reasons.
From advic - again sorry for this line of argument!!
The granting of bail will depend on a number of factors and the Court will consider any or all of these when making their decision:- Was the accused “caught in the act”?
- The accused’s “character” and evidence of any previous criminal record.
- Whether they have family in the area, employment etc.
- Are they likely to abscond?
- If the offence is “serious” (i.e. one that may attract a five year sentence or more) is the accused likely to commit another serious offence while on Bail?
- The likely sentence if convicted
- Will the accused interfere with witnesses or jurors?
- Have they breached Bail before?
- Whether they will keep to certain Bail conditions that may be applied (handing in passport etc.)
- The strength of the evidence against them
- Whether the Gardai object to them being granted bail
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Advic make some good proposals re breaches of bail and crime while on bail
- Under the law as it currently stands those who breach a bail bond or a condition of a bail warrant will have committed an offence under s.13 of the criminal Justice Act 1984 resulting in a maximum penalty of 12 months imprisonment and/or a €1,270 fine. We do not regard this as a significant deterrent and recommend that the word “maximum” is deleted and in its place is inserted the word “minimum.”
- We call for legislation to be enacted to reflect that a crime committed while an accused is on bail is automatically regarded as a “serious offence” regardless of the nature of the crime. This new offence must never then be considered as a crime that can be punished concurrently with the original crime, rather consecutively to it. Furthermore as the serious offence was committed on bail AdVIC calls for this to be reflected as a longer term when sentencing.
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ResearchWill wrote: »I have avoided and will continue to avoid comment on a person who currently the subject of a serious criminal investigation as to comment on such matters could possible lead to serious issues.
I have kept my comments to the OP's contention that 22 previous for RTA offences in some way should warn the criminal justice system about a person. I have pointed out that it is easy if you break the law to get multiple minor convictions for RTA offences.
BTW in relation to any of the incidents that happened over the weekend no one has been convicted as yet.
Oddly enough,it seems we can all cease worrying about the RTA offences,piffling as they appear to many,as there appears to be some far more appropriate "form" in respect of the alleged perpetrator (Mr X)......mind you I'm not for a moment suggesting that these particular offences should be taken as indicating anything either....It may well be an unfortunate coincidence..?
http://www.herald.ie/news/ballistic-knife-attack-suspect-no-memory-of-gig-rampage-3162568.htmlTHE 23-year-old Dublin man who was arrested for multiple knife attacks at Saturday night's concert at the Phoenix Park has three previous convictions for possession of knives and four for assault.
Of course these convictions may well all relate to a single misunderstanding,but I'm keeping my cynical spectacles on.....
Happily for the unfortunate perp it all appears to be a Blur....Sources say the suspect had no recollection of what he did.
However the accused in the SHM case is only trottin (:o) after some of the featured artistes here.....
http://www.sundayworld.com/columnists/index.php?aid=11433
For example,this particular lady appears to have had a burgeoning career .....Winnie Cash, who is known to use children to help her commit crime, is also a target of Operation Fiacla target. The 42-year-old, who has :eek: 127 :eek: criminal convictions, was arrested burgling a house in Finglas, in north Dublin, in 2006, while using a teenage girl to distract the owner. She was jailed for three years for that robbery on an elderly pensioner. In September 2009 Winnie was back before the courts after being caught putting a small boy through the window of a house in Mullingar, Co.Westmeath.
A total of 21 bench warrants were in existence for Cash.
Society's Fault,all of it..?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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Wow alek? What? nooooo? Not lickle old Ray Donnan, he's jus the unwuckiest lil boy racer ever, forgetting documentation 22 times! I wonder were these convictions for assault and knife possession lumped in by his solicitor as 'boy racer' convictions or did these happen after his road rage incident?
Sorry Will but while your explanation was possible it was highly improbable and these convictions should have been alarming
Impotent system gets people stabbed0 -
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Using kids n the commission of a crime should be viewed as seriously as pedophilia. Coercing the children and mentally scarring them, and as children can't be (or shouldn't be) tried in many cases, the adults should bare a double sentence - to run consecutively0
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ArmaniJeanss wrote: »So any media who reported it would be in contempt of court.
So.... what happens now?
In the information age of google, twitter and fast electronic media can we really expect totally naive jurors?0 -
Laminations wrote: »Wow alek? What? nooooo? Not lickle old Ray Donnan
Actually, could these be two different people, both from same area in Clondalkin, both involved in 'alledgedly' stabbing people at that gig? I though Donnan was 22 but this unnamed fella is 230 -
Laminations wrote: »Actually, could these be two different people, both from same area in Clondalkin, both involved in 'alledgedly' stabbing people at that gig? I though Donnan was 22 but this unnamed fella is 23
Mistaken identity ?Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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+1Laminations wrote: »... Judges seem to be fudging their responsibility to protect society from repeat offenders. They are making poor judgements and there seems to be no consequence for them. They deem it appropriate that a defendant gets bail and then that defendant commits more crimes while out on bail and there is no review of the judges decision making ...
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Well it seems that after appointment they are answerable only to their peers. Getting rid of a judge seems to be a difficult as getting rid of a school-full of bad teachers, and I think to get rid of a High Court Judge you need an Act of the Dail to be passed..
My simple mind always felt it had the assurance of judicial impartiality and objectivity when it came to punishing crimes and criminality, but reality is far removed from this utopian position.
Judges forsook the pretence of impartiality when they begin to give discounts off sentences for early pleas and for plea bargaining (charged with murder, pleads to manslaughter gets five years instead of life). This means that far from dispensing justice without fear or favour they are dispensing a type of justice geared to helping with Garda clean-up rates and DPP successful prosecution stats, all the public servants making each other look good.
In recent months there have been harrowing stories of victims' families living in fear of their lives when offenders they testified against are released, or families uprooted from schools and life-long friends to live amongst cows and sheep because the criminals rule the roost in their native locality.
I know this will get the sandal-wearing tree-huggers incensed and start them droning on about offenders rights and so on, but I think that when it comes to sentencing and reviews for release, the voice that needs to be heard is that of the victim, not the judge rabbiting on about how terrible and awful it all is and indulging in the usual hand-wringing nonsense, that they be limited to 15 or fewer words in summing up or sentencing. This will create more time in their calendars for more criminal trials and help reduce the number of scumbags on bail. So they say stuff like "15 years, no remission, transgression of prison rules, 5 years extra per."
I have tons more but I'll start with this. Good topic OP, well done.0 -
Don't see the point of this argument at all. He was only paying it back because he was caught out deliberately falsifying customs declarations over an extended period. It was not a voluntary disclosure nor was it an isolated one-off offence.
If I go into my local supermarket and get caught shoplifting a bottle of vodka, should I be treated more leniently if I offer to return the one I stole last week?
Do you think this is some radical idea? It is pretty much universally practiced that people who admit guilt and attempt to make the victim whole receive a more lenient sentence.0 -
My simple mind always felt it had the assurance of judicial impartiality and objectivity when it came to punishing crimes and criminality, but reality is far removed from this utopian position.
Judges forsook the pretence of impartiality when they begin to give discounts off sentences for early pleas and for plea bargaining (charged with murder, pleads to manslaughter gets five years instead of life). This means that far from dispensing justice without fear or favour they are dispensing a type of justice geared to helping with Garda clean-up rates and DPP successful prosecution stats, all the public servants making each other look good.
In recent months there have been harrowing stories of victims' families living in fear of their lives when offenders they testified against are released, or families uprooted from schools and life-long friends to live amongst cows and sheep because the criminals rule the roost in their native locality.
Very good points and sums up my feeling on the whole system. No consistency, explanation or accountability from judges, no dedication to justice from the DPP (including a lack of will to pursue white collar crime), no focus on rehabilitation in prisons (or an appreciation that even if prison doesn't reform an offender it keeps them off the street) and no requirement for rehabilitation for release. The crime figures for people released on bail are a crying shame. Between the DPP reducing charges to secure an easier guilty plea and judges suspending sentences, cropping sentences, overusing concurrent sentencing all in the name of convenience and the bizarre state of affairs where all sentences come with an automatic 25% remission the system has titled in favour of the criminal, especially the repeat offender who knows how to play the system to great effect.0 -
Laminations wrote: »The crime figures for people released on bail are a crying shame. Between the DPP reducing charges to secure an easier guilty plea and judges suspending sentences, cropping sentences, overusing concurrent sentencing all in the name of convenience and the bizarre state of affairs where all sentences come with an automatic 25% remission the system has titled in favour of the criminal, especially the repeat offender who knows how to play the system to great effect.
Absolutely bizzarre shytt,and it defiles any notion of an operable system of Justice.
Taken to it's limit does this mean that I,as a law abiding citizen will get an Automatic 25% rebate on any PAYE,PRSI,Road Tax,Property Tax etc IF I cooperate by actually paying them...?
No...?......Hmmmmm yet however,should I become a career criminal at whatever level, a learned Judge will automatically give me a rebate because a the Court of CRIMINAL Appeal thinks it's somewhat more liberally "nice" to do so......(The clue is in the Court's name).
By the time stuff gets to the CoCA the appellant has been convicted....The CoCA needs to be looking at the various cases before it with a somewhat more discerning eye.....and not with a 25% Off Everything Business Model !!!Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Charles Mackay (1812-1889)
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hi having attended this concert and completly complied with the rules upon entry i am disgusted and outraged at the name and scandal that lad has blackened all of us concert goers on the day with, he is a scumbag of the highest regard and should be given no less than an attempted murder charge, the judicial system in this country is a joke and the fact that he has still remained un-named (even tho he is over the legal age to be mentioned) is a sickner in itself,
my eyes were opened after that gig, even though i had a great time it seemed like dawn of the dead at stages with people no brighter than the colour grey being brought off on stretchers and girls urinating agains walls with there ass's out was disgusting, fights and mud wrestles when in actual fact they were rolling in manure.(shocking):eek:
what caught my attention most before all of this,was when i was entering the gate, only a small few at a time were asked for tickets and i know a few who didnt even get asked for theirs, and any fight that happened to take place was watched by SWORD (apparent) SECURITY intsead of interupting the brawl. Drink was allowed in as many of the goers got away with it, and my bag was only patted instead of thourougly searched,(i couldve easily had a knife) but there searches were not done to a level of satisfaction, i do security myself and it was an eye opener for me watching these, and then to read the following day that mcd were satisfied with the precautions taken is a joke, many of them seemed more interested in the concert. i know if i was there i would be fully committed to doing the job to a satisfactory level,what they done was a farce they need to re assign some heavy duty guys not afraid to get involved! it gives us all a bad name for the few scumbags that were involved!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:0 -
Talk about blaming the wrong people - or at least being short sighted in identifying who is responsible
http://www.newstalk.ie/2012/news/mcd-promoters-should-be-arrested-says-labour-td/
Firstly the individuals who were unable to conduct themselves appropriately are responsible and should be held to account. Also as the thread suggests the justice system is to blame for failing to intervene in these criminals lives and stop them in their tracks. If they'd been dealt with by the courts on one of their (undoubtedly) many previous appearances people at that concert would've been safer. They either groom the criminals in unfit prisons or give em a slAp on the wrist and a pat on the bum and send them back into the street, to stab another day0 -
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Laminations wrote: »Also as the thread suggests the justice system is to blame for failing to intervene in these criminals lives and stop them in their tracks. If they'd been dealt with by the courts on one of their (undoubtedly) many previous appearances people at that concert would've been safer. They either groom the criminals in unfit prisons or give em a slAp on the wrist and a pat on the bum and send them back into the street, to stab another day
You know what, the only way the judges behaviour will change is when one of them(a big name) and/or a high profile politician is a victim of the bail offenders. A bit like Veronica Guerin, it took her murder to bring in CAB.0 -
I'm sick of this guy being held up as a comparison but tbh the likes of him should be under house arrest, monitored by electronic tagging and random spot checks.troposphere wrote: »I bet he will get less time than that guy that imported garlic without paying full tax
Non-violent criminals don't really need to be locked up to punish them. They can be denied 90% of their liberty by using tagging, with any breaches of the conditions resulting in actual prison.
We have prisons full of debtors who deserve their punishment but are not actually a physical risk to the public, yer garlic man being a good example. He could be punished with a sentence that confines him to his home. Those walls would close in fairly fast if you knew you couldn't leave them for 10 years.
This (once set up) would cost the taxpayer a fraction of the cost of housing someone in actual prison and crucially would free up prison space for violent offenders who really should be kept away from the rest of us.0 -
This donnan guy had 22 previous convictions for boy racing and road rage incidents it could have been picked up by some judge but no - they all let him off,i think the problem with the justice system is the lenient judges undermining the good work of the very few guards we have..0
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troposphere wrote: »He was in the process of paying back the money and had already paid back €900,000 of the €1.6m he tried to evade. Ireland has a very funny justice system where they seem to come down hard on nonviolent offenders.
You can't argue that non violence offences are treated harshly .. I think that was just about the first ever "white collar" conviction.0 -
You can't argue that non violence offences are treated harshly .. I think that was just about the first ever "white collar" conviction.
While I agree that we need harsh sentences for white collar crime, I also agree with murphaph about prisons being reserved for housing dangers to society who need rehabilitation. House arrests can work for non violent offenders and I think you can be harsh without prison widen dealing with people who care about status, reputation, assets and spending power.
While we need quick bankruptcy for failed businesses to encourage entrepreneurial risk, for business people who break the law and evade tax there should be ruinous penalties. They should be shamed. Properly shamed, not a tribunal or a spread in the papers or a weeks talking point in the Dail or by the water coolers. They should face massive fines, be put under house arrest, and assets including family home should be at risk.0 -
More evidence that the justice system isn't executing its duties.
But sure no cause for concern, it's 'mostly' minor offencesMost of those outstanding, he says, are penal warrants relating to imprisonment for non-payment of fines
I love the way people (ususally people involved in he system) try and downplay the seriousness of statistics like this. For example a solicitor on RTe radio this morning was saying 'it's not like it's 123,000 axe murderers'. Well we know that but the system is thoroughly broken. He seemed to think it was an unavoidable thing that people just go to ground and hide from the system. It's more proof that's there are people with little respect (or fear) of the law that couldn't be bothered to turn up to court. In this day and age how can someone not be found? With 400,000 plus people signing on they must be able to cross reference outstanding warrants with social welfare to catch people - and with non-payment of fines deduct the penalty from source so avoid clogging prisons.
But we won't worry, someone's 'looking into it'senior gardaí across the country are tasked with managing the execution of warrants and a working group is also looking at the issue.0 -
Just following on with the warrants debacle.The vast majority of these, 93 per cent, are penal warrants that relate to offences under Road Traffic Acts, public order and theft offences, where a fine has been imposed with a short period of imprisonment arising from failure to pay.
Source
So leaving aside that some of those fines may have been a lenient judgement for those trivial little things like theft and public order offences, this figure means ~8,500 warrants are committal or bench warrants. I think Humphreys needs to push for more info. We need to know the breakdown of outstanding warrants. Like this from 2007.
But a further clarification needs to be sought - the number of people with warrants against their name. In 2008 there were 3,800 committal warrants but gardai couldn't tell how many fugitives this related to. In 2008 with the figures lower than now the then opposition branded the figures as"serious" and said that the failure to tackle the problem was "bringing the law into disrepute".
So 4 years ago this problem was serious leading the Taoiseach to admitthat action must be taken to tighten up the present system.
4 years later and the problem has worsened and we get a 'working group'
Not.Good.Enough
Shatter needs to show he is tackling this as a priority.0
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