Tesco Maynooth

Sesshoumaru · 31-12-2011 11:22pm

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

It actually makes more sense to lease the battery like Renault than to include it in the cost of the car like Nissan did.

The battery in the Leaf has an expected life of around 7 years. This means in 7 years time, the proud owner of a Leaf has to fork out up to 12k for a new battery, whereas Mr Renault EV owner doesn't need to worry about that because he never owns the battery.

Much better system IMO. It also makes sense when you consider that Renault are developing a system where you drive into an EV centre, and your empty batter is swapped for a charged battery.

IIRC, the Leaf and the Fluence cannot use the same quick charge points. I did training on this recently, but I can't remember for the life of my what the reasons were for it.

I don't want to get into another battery debate, so for now I'll just point out that the Leaf battery has an 8 year warranty in the US.

The Leaf has two ports on the front.

The one on the right of the picture is the J1772 which the Renault also has. The one on the left is the DC port which can you use the 50,000 watt DC fast chargers.

The Renault can rapid charge on the J1772 port by using 3 phase, or so I've heard. That's why I think you'll hear them referred to as either a fast charger (50kw DC) or rapid charger (3 phase AC).

Sesshoumaru · 31-12-2011 11:34pm

E39MSport wrote: »

I'm parking my 850 across those two fokkers tomorrow

I think last time I checked there were 40 Leaf's sold in all of Ireland this year! Don't hold your breath hoping you'll actually inconvenience anyone if you park there

Anyways cable is quite long, so I imagine I'll be able to run it over your car after I park behind you

vetstu · 01-01-2012 10:28am

Would it be possible for a less reputable membr of society to remove the charging cable while you were shopping? Or do you have to sit and watch it charging.

Sesshoumaru · 01-01-2012 11:09am

vetstu wrote: »

Would it be possible for a less reputable membr of society to remove the charging cable while you were shopping? Or do you have to sit and watch it charging.

It's locked at both ends. I guess someone could still take it with the right equipment. A big hammer maybe? I don't think that would be the smartest idea though. Do less reputable members of society usually go around vandalising live electrical equipment?

vetstu · 01-01-2012 11:25am

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It's locked at both ends. I guess someone could still take it with the right equipment. A big hammer maybe? I don't think that would be the smartest idea though. Do less reputable members of society usually go around vandalising live electrical equipment?

Didn't know it was locked. Cheers. Sure the hoors would rob anything thats not tied down

E39MSport · 01-01-2012 11:48am

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It's locked at both ends. I guess someone could still take it with the right equipment. A big hammer maybe? I don't think that would be the smartest idea though. Do less reputable members of society usually go around vandalising live electrical equipment?

Yes. Copper robberies from live sub stations are an increasing problem.

Bodhan · 01-01-2012 11:54am

There are two good reasons for Renault to lease the battery to you.

Battery technology is moving fast, as the range of the battery improves the Renault owner can change up at no extra cost.
Say you buy a Leaf with 120kms range and go to sell it in 4 years and by then the Leaf is being sold with a 250kms range or more, what happens to your car?

The second reason is the initial cost, the Fluence is far cheaper to buy than the Leaf; bigger car too.

No matter what happens you always have the latest battery with Renault.

unkel · 01-01-2012 3:50pm

Bodhan wrote: »

There are two good reasons for Renault to lease the battery to you.

Good points, but the €1,000 or so the battery hire costs for the year completely destroys any savings in fuel over an ordinary petrol car for many owners

L1011 · 01-01-2012 3:52pm

Bodhan wrote: »

Battery technology is moving fast,

Stop drinking the kool-aid. Battery technology has been static for years. The Fluence ZE owner isn't going to get a better battery off Renault when the first wears out.

We've had the "battery technology will improve!" line for twenty years and guess what? It hasn't. It won't.

Sesshoumaru · 01-01-2012 5:50pm

MYOB wrote: »

Stop drinking the kool-aid. Battery technology has been static for years. The Fluence ZE owner isn't going to get a better battery off Renault when the first wears out.

We've had the "battery technology will improve!" line for twenty years and guess what? It hasn't. It won't.

As per the thread though (& ignoring your personal opinion based point) the infrastructure to support EV's is increasing.

L1011 · 01-01-2012 6:29pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

As per the thread though (& ignoring your personal opinion based point) the infrastructure to support EV's is increasing.

Once again, fact becomes "opinion" when you disagree with it.

Extra charge points don't make an inherently short-range vehicle any more practical; particularly when the charge points are being placed at the taxpayer (and ESB customer) expense rather than funded by EV owners.

Drummerboy08 · 01-01-2012 7:11pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

I don't want to get into another battery debate, so for now I'll just point out that the Leaf battery has an 8 year warranty in the US.

Thats not really my point though. As I said, the battery only has a certain lifespan, after which it needs to be replaced. This is not covered under warranty and is a cost that needs to be met by the owner.

This is why it makes more sense to lease the battery ala Renault.

Absurdum · 01-01-2012 9:06pm

Nissan addresses Leaf battery life, replacement costs

Hundreds, not thousands.

That's the word from Nissan's chief vice-president of global marketing communications, Simon Sproule, who believes that after five years of repeated use, the battery pack in the Nissan Leaf may require some maintenance, but not complete replacement.

Nissan states that after five years (or 60,000 miles) of use, the Leaf's battery pack will still retain at least 80 percent of its original 24-kWh capacity. But if the pack dips below that 80-percent threshold, then Nissan says individual module swap outs – not entire battery pack replacements – will be the most likely solution. Sproule stated:
There's been a lot of debate online about the replacement cost of the battery and it's very unlikely that anyone's going to have to replace the entire battery pack. Typically people will need to replace modules and we can open up the battery pack and do that. There's been a lot of chatter online about tens of thousands of dollars or euros to replace a whole battery pack, but really you want to focus on the modules and these will be in the hundreds, not the thousands.
As for the common concern that daily use of a quick-charge (Level 3) station will degrade battery life, Sproule responded:
If someone uses the fast charging system every day, they would be doing more than 200 miles [daily] and on an annual basis that would be over 70,000 miles. There aren't many people that drive 70,000 miles a year in any car so it's an unlikely scenario that someone would be fast charging every day. The constant heavy recharge cycle is the extreme and we engineer for the extreme but the reality day-to-day will be nowhere near that.
Looks like Sproule has his hands full dispelling Nissan Leaf myths.

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/30/nissan-addresses-leaf-battery-life-replacement-costs/

Sesshoumaru · 01-01-2012 9:19pm

MYOB wrote: »

Once again, fact becomes "opinion" when you disagree with it.

Extra charge points don't make an inherently short-range vehicle any more practical; particularly when the charge points are being placed at the taxpayer (and ESB customer) expense rather than funded by EV owners.

How can you reason and debate with someone who posts no evidence to back up their personal opinion? Do we just spend all day posting our opinions, one after another in quick succession?

That is essentially all we can do when you provide no evidence for me to wrestle with.

The government also spends money on programs I don't agree with, can I get a tax refund on those? Maybe we can all just dictate what we as individuals are willing to allow our tax euros to be spent on by the government?

Sesshoumaru · 01-01-2012 9:22pm

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Thats not really my point though. As I said, the battery only has a certain lifespan, after which it needs to be replaced. This is not covered under warranty and is a cost that needs to be met by the owner.

This is why it makes more sense to lease the battery ala Renault.

Absurdum posted a good link on this, but I'll just add this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Battery

The battery as we refer to it as, is actually 48 modules(batteries), each one can be replaced individually.

Bandara · 01-01-2012 10:04pm

With respect lads, Nissans Vice president can claim all whatever the hell he wants, its doesn't make it true.

Apple claim that the Iphone 4 has 300 hours of standby time, thats almost 13 days without needing to charge.

I have an Iphone 4, I NEVER last a full day without needing to top it up. Tell that to Apple and they'll point out that I am using the phone for ringing people, texting people, surfing the web, listening to music - all things that are not part of their 300 hour claim.

In others words, a paper never refuses ink....

Absurdum · 01-01-2012 10:13pm

and a petrol station owner never refuses customers :P

Bandara · 01-01-2012 10:24pm

Absurdum wrote: »

and a petrol station owner never refuses customers :P

Please, I prefer Fossil Fuel Seller (FFS for short).

;p

L1011 · 01-01-2012 11:28pm

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

How can you reason and debate with someone who posts no evidence to back up their personal opinion? Do we just spend all day posting our opinions, one after another in quick succession? That is essentially all we can do when you provide no evidence for me to wrestle with.

The government also spends money on programs I don't agree with, can I get a tax refund on those? Maybe we can all just dictate what we as individuals are willing to allow our tax euros to be spent on by the government?

I posted evidence (in relation to fuel mix in the power grid here; and battery safety and development) and got an equivalent of "lalalala I can't hear you" so I don't see why its worth my while. Anything you disagree with becomes "opinion".

unkel · 01-01-2012 11:39pm

Hammertime wrote: »

Apple claim that the Iphone 4 has 300 hours of standby time, thats almost 13 days without needing to charge.

Good analogy indeed. Manufacturers claims should always be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Please use your head and common sense, folks!

Nissan Leaf has an 80kW motor. Top speed is 150km/h and battery capacity is 24kWh

This means that driving at 150km/h (presumably using maximum power as I don't think the speed is limited), the range is an astonishing 24/80 = 18 minutes at 150km/h this is less than 27 miles

Yes. Maximum theoretical range less than 27 miles!

pippip · 02-01-2012 12:53pm

http://www.edmunds.com/about/press/edmunds-insidelinecom-discovers-nissan-leafs-optimal-driving-range-and-reports-on-dying-battery-experience.html

Interesting independent test of the range. A few sub articles throughout.

Drummerboy08 · 02-01-2012 1:35pm

Absurdum wrote: »

http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/30/nissan-addresses-leaf-battery-life-replacement-costs/

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Absurdum posted a good link on this, but I'll just add this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Leaf#Battery

The battery as we refer to it as, is actually 48 modules(batteries), each one can be replaced individually.

That's all well and good, but I'm being told otherwise by Nissan.

The entire unit has to be replaced. Yes, the battery is made up of a number of components but it is a sealed unit which can only be taken apart by a specially trained EV tech.

I've seen the cost of this new unit and it's not cheap.

pajo1981 · 02-01-2012 1:41pm

unkel wrote: »

Good analogy indeed. Manufacturers claims should always be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Please use your head and common sense, folks!

Nissan Leaf has an 80kW motor. Top speed is 150km/h and battery capacity is 24kWh

This means that driving at 150km/h (presumably using maximum power as I don't think the speed is limited), the range is an astonishing 24/80 = 18 minutes at 150km/h this is less than 27 miles

Yes. Maximum theoretical range less than 27 miles!

Total nonsense. The leaf's power output falls from almost max to nothing in the space of 5 or so kmph. The truth is you have now idea what power is required to do its max speed.

unkel · 02-01-2012 3:37pm

pajo1981 wrote: »

The leaf's power output falls from almost max to nothing in the space of 5 or so kmph.

Eh? You saying you could drive a leaf all day long using almost no power at all at 145km/h?

pajo1981 · 02-01-2012 6:25pm

unkel wrote: »

Eh? You saying you could drive a leaf all day long using almost no power at all at 145km/h?

No.

The car doesn't require full power to do its top speed.

The car's power output drops sharply just before it hits top-speed -until it becomes equal (and opposite) the power required to overcome drag.

The top speed is effectively electronically limited.

Absurdum · 02-01-2012 6:52pm

unkel wrote: »

Good analogy indeed. Manufacturers claims should always be taken with a large pinch of salt.

Please use your head and common sense, folks!

Nissan Leaf has an 80kW motor. Top speed is 150km/h and battery capacity is 24kWh

This means that driving at 150km/h (presumably using maximum power as I don't think the speed is limited), the range is an astonishing 24/80 = 18 minutes at 150km/h this is less than 27 miles

Yes. Maximum theoretical range less than 27 miles!

So what? Nobody makes a journey at top speed so that 27 miles is irrelevant. All cars' fuel consumption rises rapidly approaching top speed. Whatever way you square it, that 27 miles or whatever distance it really is (and there are plenty of independent reports of owners achieving the claimed range), the cost of the journey is significantly lower than any ICE vehicle.

Marcusm · 02-01-2012 7:05pm

Owen wrote: »

And don't forget, even if you buy a Renault electric vehicle, you then rent the battery in it. Its like going to a restaurant, paying for your dinner, and then paying again for the cutlery. What a crock of sh*t!

That's designed so the upfront and running costs reflect the profile if a non EV. It will be interesting to see if there's enough uptake to facilitate battery switching as an alternative to recharging for motorway journeys.

unkel · 02-01-2012 8:41pm

pajo1981 wrote: »

The top speed is effectively electronically limited.

My assumption was that the top speed was not limited. I clearly stated that. I can't find anywhere stating that it the top speed in the Leaf is limited. If you can show me that it is indeed limited, I'll concede that my calculation isn't valid

Absurdum wrote: »

So what? Nobody makes a journey at top speed so that 27 miles is irrelevant.

Strongly disagree. When I make a longer journey on a good empty motorway, I'd like to press on. What my calculation shows is that current EVs are not suitable for driving on motorways, unless you want to deliberately drive very slowly (and waste your life)

A vehicle that can only do 27 miles / 18 minutes on a motorway at cruising speed before needing a complete recharge, is going to have a very limited market in continental Europe, or even in the UK

E39MSport · 02-01-2012 8:45pm

RTE news earlier said that the ESB have only rolled out 10% of the promised charge points for the new year. Blaming it on utilisation and Nissan blaming sales on charge point rollout.

L1011 · 02-01-2012 8:58pm

E39MSport wrote: »

RTE news earlier said that the ESB have only rolled out 10% of the promised charge points for the new year. Blaming it on utilisation and Nissan blaming sales on charge point rollout.

I'd certainly go with the ESBs line. I've seen charge points in numerous locations and NEVER used.

Tesco Maynooth

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