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to be free!! mean's what!?

  • 19-04-2009 3:06am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭


    everyone talk's and think's free but how free are we as mind's!?
    Are you free??, more free then the person's who longed for it during WW1 or WW11!?
    THE best conspiracy is the conspiracy you know notting about-FACT-
    so what does it mean to be free, does it mean you'll have a house but you'll never pay enuf for it!?
    does it mean you'll have an opinion on anything,like no question's asked!?
    the best conspiracy is the world that we cann't see.....,....... but its the world that we can dream about.


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Woger


    What is the matrix?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 246 ✭✭live2thewire


    society in this form humans can never be free.


  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    Woger wrote: »
    What is the matrix?
    lets not think whats in-side it, but whats out- side it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    society in this form humans can never be free.
    your wisdom be-come,s me ...


  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    In other word's ,,,,,,,,,,, is freedom the best conspiracy of all time!?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Nick_oliveri


    When laws and prohibitions of substances are introduced into the equation or even pissing outside will get you jailed.. no, freedom isn't free, it costs folks like you and me!

    I get jailed for exposing mah willy in public, I can show mah manboobs, but if a woman exposes her woobs, she gets done!

    Freedom is an illusion. And when democracy becomes a race between only two main parties, in this country or others, is it democracy?


  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    When laws and prohibitions of substances are introduced into the equation or even pissing outside will get you jailed.. no, freedom isn't free, it costs folks like you and me!

    I get jailed for exposing mah willy in public, I can show mah manboobs, but if a woman exposes her woobs, she gets done!

    Freedom is an illusion. And when democracy becomes a race between only two main parties, in this country or others, is it democracy?
    okey nick am i right in sayin you think freedom is an illusion!?
    i dont think freedom is an illusion, its a conspiracy..


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Nick_oliveri


    Well there is motive, the man going to war for our freedoms or democracy etc.

    But as a society we accept the illusion of either democracy or freedom. What is it to be free? Not in jail? Freedom of speech? Ya, surely we all have that. I call you or anyone else a cnut and its verbal assault/abuse/libel. Its the little things that drag us all down.

    Do i agree with libel laws? I dont know, but theres certainly a lot of things you cannot say, and not only for libel either.

    Cue someone waddling into the thread and comparing other countries and how we are all blessed... I think theres a godwin coming too here.

    ETA: I think true freedom is a man and/or a woman fending for themselves in nature, unburdened modern society and untainted by wealth/power/hatred/revenge.


  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    Well there is motive, the man going to war for our freedoms or democracy etc.

    But as a society we accept the illusion of either democracy or freedom. What is it to be free? Not in jail? Freedom of speech? Ya, surely we all have that. I call you or anyone else a cnut and its verbal assault/abuse/libel. Its the little things that drag us all down.

    Do i agree with libel laws? I dont know, but theres certainly a lot of things you cannot say, and not only for libel either.

    Cue someone waddling into the thread and comparing other countries and how we are all blessed... I think theres a godwin coming too here.
    there is motive yes.... there is logic also.......yes, democracy is the only freedom we know because of WW1 AND WW2 ,democracy and freedom are meant to be one, thats how i understand it.
    we don't have freedom of speech as i've to follow rule's to post.
    but if i do it the right way their can be a understanding about how far i can bring this subject and why it's a conspiracy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Nick_oliveri


    No I didnt mean to infer about the speech on boards, I meant our countries libel laws.
    I seem to be coming across as advocating anarchism also. This is not the case.

    To live in a large community means conforming to a certain amount of laws. To say we are free though, that is bull**** and we all know it. Free to buy drink and not to be seen drunk? Free to have the means to be drunk but other substances less volitile and dangerous are outlawed?

    I am ranting here. The topic is the conspiracy, dont let me go any further OT.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    No I didnt mean to infer about the speech on boards, I meant our countries libel laws.
    I seem to be coming across as advocating anarchism also. This is not the case.

    To live in a large community means conforming to a certain amount of laws. To say we are free though, that is bull**** and we all know it. Free to buy drink and not to be seen drunk? Free to have the means to be drunk but other substances less volitile and dangerous are outlawed?

    I am ranting here. The topic is the conspiracy, dont let me go any further OT.
    your thinking like me, i like it:D


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 47,212 CMod ✭✭✭✭Black Swan


    Where is the conspiracy?
    Conspiracy defined:
    1. a secret plan to carry out an illegal or harmful act
    2. the act of making such plans
    (Collins Essential English Dictionary, 2nd Edition 2006, HarperCollins Publishers)
    This thread reads more like the philosophy of freedom?


  • Registered Users Posts: 635 ✭✭✭jonbravo


    Where is the conspiracy?
    Conspiracy defined:
    1. a secret plan to carry out an illegal or harmful act
    2. the act of making such plans
    (Collins Essential English Dictionary, 2nd Edition 2006, HarperCollins Publishers)
    This thread reads more like the philosophy of freedom?
    Discussion is the new philosophy.......conspiracy defined as of your opinion.....;)


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    as someone far smarter than me said

    anarchy is not a world without rules, its a world without rulers.

    surprised we havent had the usual gaggle of ah shur y've never had it so good posters yet.



    the Lien of Democracy is probably our biggest hurdle, start thinkin Republic instead of democracy lads and we might just get somewhere.

    democracy is just glorified mob rule, nothing fancier than that really.


    and yes the conspiracy here is the lie, in case people start askin or contemplating a request for moving the thread


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 259 ✭✭Veni Vedi Vici


    anarchy is not a world without rules, its a world without rulers.

    I like this. Maybe its the answer to the OP. :cool:

    the Lien of Democracy is probably our biggest hurdle, start thinkin Republic instead of democracy lads and we might just get somewhere.

    Can you elaborate on this?

    democracy is just glorified mob rule, nothing fancier than that really.

    Interesting depiction.

    and yes the conspiracy here is the lie, in case people start askin or contemplating a request for moving the thread

    :D:D:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    as someone far smarter than me said

    anarchy is not a world without rules, its a world without rulers.

    There's a line in a Dead Kennedy's song that goes something like: anarchy's great but who's gonna fix the sewers.

    Or how about: Democracy is the worst form of government except all the other ones that have been tried.
    surprised we havent had the usual gaggle of ah shur y've never had it so good posters yet.

    I'll tell you what. Why don't you explain to me by what measure it was better in the past, as I'm a bit unclear on that?
    the Lien of Democracy is probably our biggest hurdle, start thinkin Republic instead of democracy lads and we might just get somewhere.

    democracy is just glorified mob rule, nothing fancier than that really.

    I think you have this idea that people having more direct control of government is a good thing, I'd argue that has never been the case. All you'd get is more mob rule.

    And you think other forms of government aren't in most ways?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    OP, what do you mean? Do you mean that the image of freedom that this society gives us is a conspiracy, or that true freedom is a conspiracy?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Well I think nobody can ever be truly free as there's always going to be something working against you.

    If we were all really free I'd have the freedom to butcher you as you sleep if I wanted. But you'd have the freedom to not be butchered in your sleep, so we're stuck with a paradox (I think :D ).

    The best you can do is be free from certain things. And those things are different for each person.

    Actually to be honest, the only real way to be free is to die. Unless you're religious, in which case you can either look forward to being a slave or being tortured for all eternity, depending on your belief. Bit shìt, really.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    Jonbravo, your posts are very hard to read.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,473 ✭✭✭robtri


    anarchy is not a world without rules, its a world without rulers.

    trying to get my head around this one.... how is that posible??

    if we take away the rulers, people then have the freedom to rule themselves, which makes them rulers... which means we need to get rid of them.. which means no human race.......


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭jackiebrown


    Freedom is taking responsibility for your own actions and not being treated like a child.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Freedom is taking responsibility for your own actions and not being treated like a child.

    I think it's a nice sentiment but in practice people don't take that responsibility and we're getting worse.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭jackiebrown


    meglome wrote: »
    I think it's a nice sentiment but in practice people don't take that responsibility and we're getting worse.

    Because responsibility has been taken away from us and we accept it. Why if you speed do you get fined? You haven't hurt anyone. Its saying "Now you been a bold boy, obey the rules or else. Whose rules? Do you know the difference between a statute and Law?

    I don't think we're getting worse. Change is coming alright.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Woger


    Because responsibility has been taken away from us and we accept it. Why if you speed do you get fined? You haven't hurt anyone. Its saying "Now you been a bold boy, obey the rules or else. Whose rules? Do you know the difference between a statute and Law?

    I don't think we're getting worse. Change is coming alright.

    In what form?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Because responsibility has been taken away from us and we accept it. Why if you speed do you get fined? You haven't hurt anyone. Its saying "Now you been a bold boy, obey the rules or else. Whose rules? Do you know the difference between a statute and Law?

    I don't think we're getting worse. Change is coming alright.

    Okay let's take the floods in Britain there a couple of years back. One of the worst effected areas was very working class and has had low turnouts for elections. A good percentage of the people had no insurance whatsoever on their houses. So the very people who didn't feel the need to care who was running their country then screamed blue murder for the government to bail them out, which the government did.

    As for speeding I'd imagine it would be all the studies that show excessive speed kills. I don't care about the difference between a statute and a law I only care whether the rules make sense or not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭jackiebrown


    meglome wrote: »
    Okay let's take the floods in Britain there a couple of years back. One of the worst effected areas was very working class and has had low turnouts for elections. A good percentage of the people had no insurance whatsoever on their houses. So the very people who didn't feel the need to care who was running their country then screamed blue murder for the government to bail them out, which the government did.

    I'd say it was the people helping each other out. Governments are companies, simple as. Companies care about one thing. Profit. If government hadn't of helped these people then the house of cards would fall. Its all an illusion. I don't need to be dictated to anymore about how to live my life. I dont need governments to tell me if I'm good or bad. I AM NOT A CHILD. If I live my life without hurting anyone then what I do is my business, no-one elses. I am innocent till proven guilty.
    As for speeding I'd imagine it would be all the studies that show excessive speed kills. I don't care about the difference between a statute and a law I only care whether the rules make sense or not.
    Does it make sense that you dont get notified when you NCT is up but you get fined and 5 points on your licence if you miss it? Does it make sense that the worst drug in our lives, alcohol, is legal? Does it make sense that banks can steal millions and get away with it? Does it make sense that Bertie Ahern, the smug git, can just quit his job and the questions into his personal finances end? Does it make sense that this government allowed US military jets to land here when no one I met thought they should? Does it make sense that evrything costs more now but we're paid less? Does it make sense that the church can keep stum about child abuse and still hold power in this country? Does it make sense that we're sold into slavery from the day we're born? Does it make sense that we the people, with our labour, power this country yet get taxed to do anything in it?

    I have a feeling you and I have different ideas of what makes sense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭Woger


    I'd say it was the people helping each other out. Governments are companies, simple as. Companies care about one thing. Profit. If government hadn't of helped these people then the house of cards would fall. Its all an illusion. I don't need to be dictated to anymore about how to live my life. I dont need governments to tell me if I'm good or bad. I AM NOT A CHILD. If I live my life without hurting anyone then what I do is my business, no-one elses. I am innocent till proven guilty.

    Does it make sense that you dont get notified when you NCT is up but you get fined and 5 points on your licence if you miss it? Does it make sense that the worst drug in our lives, alcohol, is legal? Does it make sense that banks can steal millions and get away with it? Does it make sense that Bertie Ahern, the smug git, can just quit his job and the questions into his personal finances end? Does it make sense that this government allowed US military jets to land here when no one I met thought they should? Does it make sense that evrything costs more now but we're paid less? Does it make sense that the church can keep stum about child abuse and still hold power in this country? Does it make sense that we're sold into slavery from the day we're born? Does it make sense that we the people, with our labour, power this country yet get taxed to do anything in it?

    I have a feeling you and I have different ideas of what makes sense.

    Not if you're born a slave master :cool:


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Well, if you want to be technical:
    Does it make sense that you dont get notified when you NCT is up but you get fined and 5 points on your licence if you miss it?

    It's your car, so it's your duty to make sure it's in a safe condition so that you're not putting other peoples lives at risk. And am I right in saying you don't automatically get 5 points, you can get up to 5 points if brought to court?
    Does it make sense that the worst drug in our lives, alcohol, is legal?

    Well it's hardly the worst, but it does make sense. Nobody is forcing you to drink and it people should be free to polute themselves in any way they want.
    Does it make sense that banks can steal millions and get away with it?

    The heads of the banks found loopholes that others didn't know existed. It happens. But it still makes sense. It's hardly right to punish someone who technically did nothing wrong.
    Does it make sense that Bertie Ahern, the smug git, can just quit his job and the questions into his personal finances end?

    Unless you have evidence proving he did something wrong, then what would you have done? As you say, "innocent until proven guilty". Sadly it works for everyone.
    Does it make sense that this government allowed US military jets to land here when no one I met thought they should?

    Yes, because not everyone was against the war, in particular, those who made the decision to let the planes land.
    Does it make sense that evrything costs more now but we're paid less?

    Yes, because people enjoy ripping other people off. We're a selfish people, so it honestly wouldn't make sense if everyone started looking out for each other.
    Does it make sense that the church can keep stum about child abuse and still hold power in this country?

    Yes, because there's a lot of people who allow them to hold that power.
    Does it make sense that we're sold into slavery from the day we're born?

    Are we? Or is that just your interpretation of it?
    Does it make sense that we the people, with our labour, power this country yet get taxed to do anything in it?

    We the people, are the country. If you want to run the country with good will then you're more than welcome to try and change it. But you'll have a hard time doing it.

    You see, these things aren't all fair, but they do make sense. If you want to change it, then off you go. Spread the word and get as many followers as you can. Make a political party and get elected. Once elected, make the changes. But you'll be hard pressed to find the support.

    The utopia you seem to have in mind simply can't exist in any society. You have to weigh up freedom to do whatever you like with what is in the best interest of the society.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 123 ✭✭jackiebrown


    humanji wrote: »
    It's your car, so it's your duty to make sure it's in a safe condition so that you're not putting other peoples lives at risk. And am I right in saying you don't automatically get 5 points, you can get up to 5 points if brought to court?
    No its not. If its yours how can they just take it away.
    Well it's hardly the worst, but it does make sense. Nobody is forcing you to drink and it people should be free to polute themselves in any way they want.
    Its by far the worst. We either legalise or ban them all.
    The heads of the banks found loopholes that others didn't know existed. It happens. But it still makes sense. It's hardly right to punish someone who technically did nothing wrong.
    Ah so those that designed the system left loopholes with which to cheat and steal with? Fair enough.
    Unless you have evidence proving he did something wrong, then what would you have done? As you say, "innocent until proven guilty". Sadly it works for everyone.
    He's as dirty as they come. If he lies once he loses all credability. He lied many times. "I cant remember". Bollocks.
    Yes, because not everyone was against the war, in particular, those who made the decision to let the planes land.
    Er, your point.
    Yes, because people enjoy ripping other people off. We're a selfish people, so it honestly wouldn't make sense if everyone started looking out for each other.
    I'm not selfish and I know alot of people who're not as well. Just outnumbered.
    Yes, because there's a lot of people who allow them to hold that power.
    Who exactly. The government perhaps. I wonder why?.
    Are we? Or is that just your interpretation of it?
    Either or, I'm not here to explain everything to you. Check out Rob Menard or John Harris.
    We the people, are the country. If you want to run the country with good will then you're more than welcome to try and change it. But you'll have a hard time doing it.
    I never said it'd be easy.
    You see, these things aren't all fair, but they do make sense. If you want to change it, then off you go. Spread the word and get as many followers as you can. Make a political party and get elected. Once elected, make the changes. But you'll be hard pressed to find the support.
    This is where I realised you dont have a clue what I'm talking about.
    The utopia you seem to have in mind simply can't exist in any society. You have to weigh up freedom to do whatever you like with what is in the best interest of the society.
    What the hell does that mean, weigh up freedom. Gimme a break.

    At least I'm here trying to talk about different ideas. I've asked people here what improvements could be made and no-one answers. I can imagine Utopia. Did dreaming die with Martin Luther King? I have a dream too. Where people take responsibility for their actions and not give it away to those who use it for selfish reasons. If you cant imagine a perfect world then how can you make one?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    No its not. If its yours how can they just take it away.
    If it's your car you should have keep it safe. If you can't then why should you be allowed to have one? Why should your freedom to have an unsafe care infringe on my freedom not to be killed by your car should something go wrong? As I said before, you can't have ultimate freedom for everyone. It's simply not possible. There has to be degrees.
    Its by far the worst. We either legalise or ban them all.
    So we either remove my freedom to drink alcohol, or we allow children to inject heroin into themselves? Must it only be one or the other?
    Ah so those that designed the system left loopholes with which to cheat and steal with? Fair enough.
    Yes. As I said, it's unfair but it makes sense.
    He's as dirty as they come. If he lies once he loses all credability. He lied many times. "I cant remember". Bollocks.
    If you can prove he's guilty, I'll help with the lynching, but sadly, he gets away with what he's allegedly accused of.
    Er, your point.
    My point is that it makes sense that the elected government not takl to the people over every single choice it makes. Again, unfair but sensible.
    I'm not selfish and I know alot of people who're not as well. Just outnumbered.
    You want your version of freedom imposed on everyone. That's selfish. I don't mean that as an insult, as it would be great if we could live in a perfect world. But we just can't.
    Who exactly. The government perhaps. I wonder why?.
    The people of this nation. There are many who will support the churhc 100% no matter what. It's their right to choose that.
    Either or, I'm not here to explain everything to you. Check out Rob Menard or John Harris.
    :confused:
    I never said it'd be easy.
    My point there was that the taxes are a supposed to be an offering to a communal fund for the betterment of our society. In reality it doesn't work out so well, but nobody would give anything if they didn't have to.
    This is where I realised you dont have a clue what I'm talking about.
    And this is where I realise you don't understand what I'm talking about. You think there's a simple black and white solution. That we can all just flick a switch and change the world. That's not even remotely possible.
    What the hell does that mean, weigh up freedom. Gimme a break.
    It's a simple concept. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, to quote Mr Spock. Why should you and your wants and needs be taken into acount above all the wants and needs of the rest of the country? The answer, they shouldn't.
    At least I'm here trying to talk about different ideas. I've asked people here what improvements could be made and no-one answers. I can imagine Utopia. Did dreaming die with Martin Luther King? I have a dream too. Where people take responsibility for their actions and not give it away to those who use it for selfish reasons. If you cant imagine a perfect world then how can you make one?

    If you're a responsible driver, does that mean everyone is a responsible driver? That's why we have speeding laws. Because some people feel they know better. They think their abilities are greater than they really are. They think they can easily drive at higher speeds. And then they lose control and kill someone.

    It's all well and good to dream. But reality has to follow certain rules. If it didnt' I'd be a fireman living on a cloud, just like I wanted to be when I was a kid.


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