Is the educational system rigged ?

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 5:33pm

Kernel wrote: »

Yeah I used to be a fan of socialism, but don't believe in that either. As for what we can do, exactly what Nyarlothothep said.

He didn't really say anything, tbh. Lots of nice statements but no solutions. In my view, inequity is the same as always, we simply globalised the nature of it.

(For the record, I'm not an anti-globalist)

Kernel · 06-04-2009 5:41pm

Flamed Diving wrote: »

He didn't really say anything, tbh. Lots of nice statements but no solutions. In my view, inequity is the same as always, we simply globalised the nature of it.

(For the record, I'm not an anti-globalist)

National socialism in the form of a benevolent dictatorship. That worked in Germany.

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 5:44pm

Kernel wrote: »

National socialism in the form of a benevolent dictatorship. That worked in Germany.

Undergod · 06-04-2009 5:51pm

National socialism in the form of a benevolent dictatorship. That worked in Germany.

Relevant.

Time Magazine · 06-04-2009 5:56pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

It's difficult to get into the ivy league colleges without connections, even if you do have a lot of money.

For what it's worth, as someone without a lot or money or connections, I'm noticing that it is easier to gain admission to and continue through a Ph.D. programme in the States than it is here. Even if you're an Irish citizen.

meglome · 06-04-2009 6:48pm

Kernel wrote: »

No, I've met quite a few. In surprisingly high circles. Ah but that's just an anecdote eh?

Well I've never met anyone who said this nor have I heard of it from anyone other than you. Does this mean I don't think cheat, well no. I'm pretty confident people cheat but I don't assume that only wealthy people cheat. I think you give wealthy people too little credit and poor people too much.

And yes that's just an anecdote.

espinolman · 06-04-2009 7:31pm

toiletduck wrote: »

First thing we were told do in our first English class in secondary school was to get a decent (i.e. not one of the little pocket ones) dictionary. A Brothers school. This was in '97. I really have never heard of anything along the lines you're describing.

You know there used to be hedge schools in this country , people used to get educated in secret and if they got caught they were in serious trouble .

Diogenes · 06-04-2009 7:35pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Problem with this argument, life is unfair does not equate to tolerating injustice.

There is injustice, and there is injustice, there is no such thing as flawless system.

Deal in this case means accept the way things are. You can see this type of logic being used for many things, and if you like could be invoked for systems like feudalism, fascism etc, but in the end its just a tautological justification relying on a distorted and overly simplified generalization of the natural world, and then applying it to an evolution in nature, namely the human race, for the way things are.

If there are problems with a system then they must be fixed, not accepted.

Again there is no such as a perfect system. Minor corruption, wealthy buying power, and infulence, certain people with natural advantgeous rights.

If anything the trend in human history towards increased equality and civility (if you compare and contrast the present with the barbarism of earlier generations) showcases that as a species we demand greater fairness as an inherent property of our nature.

Agreed but if you there is a possibility that there is such a thing as a flawless perfect system, you've been watching too much star trek.

toiletduck · 06-04-2009 7:41pm

espinolman wrote: »

You know there used to be hedge schools in this country , people used to get educated in secret and if they got caught they were in serious trouble .

Yes and the relevance to my post is....?

espinolman · 06-04-2009 8:33pm

toiletduck wrote: »

Yes and the relevance to my post is....?

Well now , do you think there is'nt still hedge schools today in Ireland ?

toiletduck · 06-04-2009 8:51pm

espinolman wrote: »

Well now , do you think there is'nt still hedge schools today in Ireland ?

None in my experience described in your first post. You made specific claims which seem indicative of a poor education rather than an all out conspiracy (your experience seems to be definitely a minority experience given others responses here).

Diogenes · 06-04-2009 8:55pm

Kernel wrote: »

National socialism in the form of a benevolent dictatorship. That worked in Germany.

If you ignore the fact that major projects like the autobahns were built using slave labour. Or that the economic miracle of the Nazi's during the 30s was build on massive government expenditure on the military, and business supplying the miltary, which meant it was destined to go to war to capture resources to fund this military expansion. Oh and that it was a top heavy burearcy with rampent corruption, the personal fortunes of Jews fleeing the 3rd Reich gave leading Nazis plundered fortunes, as well for f's sake they gave Hitler a gold plated elevator to his private retreat in 1939.

As to the benevolent dictatorship, well I suppose it was, unless you were Gay. Gay, or Jewish, or a tradeunionist, or a gypsy, or mentally handicapped.

The concept of a benevolent dictatorship is an oxymoron. When power is isolated among a few unelected officials corruption seeps in. I'm staggered how anyone who has even cast a cursory glance at nazi history doesn't understand that cronyism, political corruption, seizing of wealth for personal gain were at the core of the nazi idelogy. Everything else was window dressing.

Flamed Diving · 06-04-2009 9:21pm

Diogenes wrote: »

If you ignore the fact that major projects like the autobahns were built using slave labour. Or that the economic miracle of the Nazi's during the 30s was build on massive government expenditure on the military, and business supplying the miltary, which meant it was destined to go to war to capture resources to fund this military expansion. Oh and that it was a top heavy burearcy with rampent corruption, the personal fortunes of Jews fleeing the 3rd Reich gave leading Nazis plundered fortunes, as well for f's sake they gave Hitler a gold plated elevator to his private retreat in 1939.

As to the benevolent dictatorship, well I suppose it was, unless you were Gay. Gay, or Jewish, or a tradeunionist, or a gypsy, or mentally handicapped.

The concept of a benevolent dictatorship is an oxymoron. When power is isolated among a few unelected officials corruption seeps in. I'm staggered how anyone who has even cast a cursory glance at nazi history doesn't understand that cronyism, political corruption, seizing of wealth for personal gain were at the core of the nazi idelogy. Everything else was window dressing.

Was Kernel being serious?

bonkey · 06-04-2009 9:48pm

Kernel wrote: »

guess what, it's an unfair system.

There's no such thing as a fair system....just different options what to base your unfairness on.

meglome · 06-04-2009 9:52pm

espinolman wrote: »

Well now , do you think there is'nt still hedge schools today in Ireland ?

Firstly as toiletduck also said I have no idea why hedge schools from the 19th century would have any relevance to the topic at hand. You're not a hundred years old or anything are you? Maybe you can explain?

As for hedge schools in modern times, I've never heard of or seen one. Maybe you can tell us where they are?

K4t · 06-04-2009 10:17pm

OP has made some valid points but his post is a bit OTT.

There are terms absent from textbooks that are on the cirriculums but you just have to ask your teacher to explain them.

The main troublemakers in class are often the very same people getting grinds outside of school and doing well in exams. I see it everyday in school! Everyone knows about it. It's unfair but that's life.

Sofa_King Good · 06-04-2009 11:31pm

Kernel wrote: »

Nonsense, there's plenty of dumb ****s who eventually got through private colleges thanks to Daddy's income and contacts. Capitalism controls everything, and guess what, it's an unfair system.

meglome wrote: »

Is that just cuase you say so? I don't remember there ever being a case like this in Ireland. And please don't say we just haven't found out yet, either you can show it to be happening or you can't. And if you can't it's just your opinion.

I went to a private college that I'd rather not name. And i witnessed what Kernel says first hand.

Esåpinolaman. Have to say I agree with you to an extent but even in the 80's in primary school kids who couldn't afford books were always supplied to them for free at my school. But I think inequality in education is a symptom of a greater social inequality. Half-arsed teachers was a problem in my school though.

Only bought a dictionary once. For the start of 1st year. The year you have every single one of your books on the book list brand new on the first day, even an Atlas ffs (may be confusing with primary though) and a maths set that you'll only ever use for drawing straight lines and about 50 copy books. Over the 6 years I doubt I ever used my dictionary other than to underline Penis or whatever. Use the online dictionary more now to translate Diogene's posts.

And I was in secondary school when the country was going a bit mental while the Celtic Tiger was roaring and it was a race to the top.

Less intellectually competent (rich) kids and blowhards were all shipped off to the institute for 5th and 6th year which is beyond regular working folk. Wonder what there numbers are like now'? First to third year they were doing French Grinds or whatever while I was playing football.

Ironically enough it was the reverse for me. I breezed through school and ended up doing quite well in my exams. Well exam i.e. the leaving cert. I got 3% I remember in pass maths in my mocks.

espinolman · 07-04-2009 12:06am

meglome wrote: »

Firstly as toiletduck also said I have no idea why hedge schools from the 19th century would have any relevance to the topic at hand. You're not a hundred years old or anything are you? Maybe you can explain?

As for hedge schools in modern times, I've never heard of or seen one. Maybe you can tell us where they are?

The relevance would be , is the tradition continued in another format .

A couple of years ago i done a night course in a college of further education , the person teaching the subject on that course used to check the door to see if anyone was listening that runs the college , they were afraid they would get in trouble for teaching us a subject , and that person teachiing that told me they had to keep a low profile because of the way things are in this country , so we have to get educated secretively now in the 21st century , i think that is disgraceful .
The course was on alternative nutrition , basically about what to eat to stay fit and healthy .

meglome · 07-04-2009 12:18am

espinolman wrote: »

The relevance would be , is the tradition continued in another format .

Right. No I still don't get it.

espinolman wrote: »

A couple of years ago i done a night course in a college of further education , the person teaching the subject on that course used to check the door to see if anyone was listening that runs the college , they were afraid they would get in trouble for teaching us a subject , and that person teachiing that told me they had to keep a low profile because of the way things are in this country , so we have to get educated seretively now in the 21st century , i think that is disgraceful .
The course was on health and alternative nutrition.

I've never heard of anything like you say, never. Out of curiosity I even asked around today in the office and no one else had either. And given how cheap grinds are and you can always get second-hand books cheap it doesn't make any sense either.

I bolded a bit of your post. Might that be the reason the guy was acting as he was? Maybe he was teaching something he shouldn't be? As in maybe not backed by science and just his opinion?

Of course none of this explains your first post about school. Do you wonder why no one else seems to have the same experience as you?

espinolman · 07-04-2009 12:29am

meglome wrote: »

Maybe he was teaching something he shouldn't be? As in maybe not backed by science and just his opinion?

And what did they do with St.johns wort ?, they would love to close all the health food shops in the country and ban us from growing lettuce in our gardens if they thought they could , and its not that its not backed by science , no is it that its not backed by big pharma !

meglome · 07-04-2009 12:33am

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

I went to a private college that I'd rather not name. And i witnessed what Kernel says first hand.

Why not say where? In Ireland? In Dublin?

So since it seems all rich people are cheats do I assume that you are too? Or is the case that cheating isn't class dependent?

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

I
Esåpinolaman. Have to say I agree with you to an extent but even in the 80's in primary school kids who couldn't afford books were always supplied to them for free at my school. But I think inequality in education is a symptom of a greater social inequality. Half-arsed teachers was a problem in my school though.

There will be people in any job that are not particularly good, teachers being no different. And it looks like you're not agreeing with him, you're saying getting books wasn't a problem.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Only bought a dictionary once. For the start of 1st year. The year you have every single one of your books on the book list brand new on the first day, even an Atlas ffs (may be confusing with primary though) and a maths set that you'll only ever use for drawing straight lines and about 50 copy books. Over the 6 years I doubt I ever used my dictionary other than to underline Penis or whatever. Use the online dictionary more now to translate Diogene's posts.

You rich kids probably had a gold plated one or somesuch. Stolen while oppressing all the rest of us no doubt.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

And I was in secondary school when the country was going a bit mental while the Celtic Tiger was roaring and it was a race to the top.

You mean the downtrodden masses where crawling their way up, damn them.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Less intellectually competent (rich) kids and blowhards were all shipped off to the institute for 5th and 6th year which is beyond regular working folk. Wonder what there numbers are like now'? First to third year they were doing French Grinds or whatever while I was playing football.

Yes it sounds like some parents want to work hard and sent their kids to the best school they can, I'm sickened. All of my friends went to normal state schools, all of them did well and all of them did well in their work and lives. And none of them came from money. The rich in this country need to get it together and oppress us better, shouldn't you they.

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

Ironically enough it was the reverse for me. I breezed through school and ended up doing quite well in my exams. Well exam i.e. the leaving cert. I got 3% I remember in pass maths in my mocks.

Fair play it's almost like you being rich had no bearing on anything.

No I've used plenty of sarcasm in this post to make a point so hopefully I'll be forgiven.

meglome · 07-04-2009 12:38am

espinolman wrote: »

And what did they do with St.johns wort ?, they would love to close all the health food shops in the country and ban us from growing lettuce in our gardens if they thought they could , and its not that its not backed by science , no its that its not backed by big pharma .

What?? Where the hell are you getting this from? So called health foods are not always as healthy as they claim. If someone is selling you something they just might be biased. Jesus why is it that only government's and corporations seem to lie. I've got news for you lot's of people lie for many different reasons and especially if they are selling you something. Sweet **** sakes.

espinolman · 07-04-2009 12:49am

meglome wrote: »

So called health foods are not always as healthy as they claim.

I agree with you there , it depends on what the product is , i know quite a bit about that .

Fluffybums · 07-04-2009 1:03am

espinolman wrote: »

And what did they do with St.johns wort ?, they would love to close all the health food shops in the country and ban us from growing lettuce in our gardens if they thought they could , and its not that its not backed by science , no is it that its not backed by big pharma !

Espinolman - try doing a search on PubMed for St. John's Wort, 1848 hits looking at amongst other things depression and bipolar. However it also interacts with major standard medicines such as statins, which is why the sale has been controlled. For your information big pharma is genuinely interested in alternative medicines and how and if they work and very importantly how they my affect standard treatments as this can provide insight into disease mechanism and new avenues for treatment. Please check your facts before you make these wild allegations.

Sofa_King Good · 07-04-2009 1:08am

meglome wrote: »

Why not say where? In Ireland? In Dublin?

Dublin. I should point out my parents took out a loan for the fees.

My Mam's been sick for as long as I've been alive and she's been a full time job for my dad. Lots of brothers and sisters thrown into the mix too. His own family are fairly well off though, Dr's, Merchant Bankers and the like.

meglome wrote: »

So since it seems all rich people are cheats do I assume that you are too? Or is the case that cheating isn't class dependent?

The key is to cheat with class! You've obviously never bought your Johns Wart on the mean streets of the South Of Dublin. Good honest people come from all walks of life and vice versa

meglome wrote: »

There will be people in any job are not particularly good,

me

meglome wrote: »

teachers being no different. And it looks like you're not agreeing with him, you're saying getting books wasn't a problem.

I sense I may be a little younger than you but to expand on what i said earlier I was on of those poor kids. Don't get me wrong it wasn't Angela's Ashes but I was one of those kids who didn't have to pay for school trips and books and stuff. To be honest I don't think my life would have been improved or turned out differently if we were better off.

meglome wrote: »

No I've used plenty of sarcasm in this post to make a point so hopefully I'll be forgiven.

I forgive you. And I don't blame you for thinking I was rich. Its due to the class and sophistication I exude.

If ever I have kids with my fiance they'll be rich kids. Iäll give them a hard time for ya!

Fluffybums · 07-04-2009 1:12am

As for the conspiracy over education - ever heard of a library most towns have one and there are even mobile ones to cater for villages and I'd be amazed if they didn't carry a decent dictionary and some kind of encyclopedia. You choose to ignorant, especially with the advent of TV, radio and the internet and of course there is that big hole in the middle of your face:. If you never learnt what a word meant that was your choice. Education is a two way process, a teacher can impart information however if the student is not involved then they might as well be talking to a brick wall. I'm not a school teacher.

Sofa_King Good · 07-04-2009 1:15am

haha Meglome I honestly thought that when I was reading your post it was from Espinolaman,

Thats why I ballsed it up.

The reason being it was just too damn pleasant to be you...no offence. So if some of the answers seem weird that is why.

espinolman · 07-04-2009 1:22am

Fluffybums wrote: »

Espinolman - try doing a search on PubMed for St. John's Wort, 1848 hits looking at amongst other things depression and bipolar. However it also interacts with major standard medicines such as statins, which is why the sale has been controlled. For your information big pharma is genuinely interested in alternative medicines and how and if they work and very importantly how they my affect standard treatments as this can provide insight into disease mechanism and new avenues for treatment. Please check your facts before you make these wild allegations.

I did not state anything about st. jonhs wort as fact , i asked a question , and you answered , reread the post , and also i said 'is ' with relation to big pharma so again , not stated as fact.

Fluffybums · 07-04-2009 1:38am

Okay implied rather than stated as fact - sorry for misunderstanding.

meglome · 07-04-2009 1:41am

Sofa_King Good wrote: »

haha Meglome I honestly thought that when I was reading your post it was from Espinolaman,

Thats why I ballsed it up.

The reason being it was just too damn pleasant to be you...no offence. So if some of the answers seem weird that is why.

he he well believe it or not in real life I'm nice, well mostly anyway.

Actually in real life I'd be a lot funnier, I rant more in here.

I know I come across as stroppy in here and I suppose intentionally so. It bothers me sometimes when people say in here that there can be only one explanation for things when clearly there can be more. And it bothers me sometimes when they tell me to open my mind except when I show them they might well be wrong and they won't listen thus showing they don't have an open mind themselves. I'd like to think I don't assume too much and again it bothers me sometimes when others do it the majority of the time. So if I'm short with people it isn't personal I just like some balance and a little less predisposed bias.

Is the educational system rigged ?

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