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Cardinal Brady - holed and sunk, but does he know it?

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    #2
    optogirl
    Registered Users Posts: 2,975 ✭✭✭optogirl


    And so we find now that Cardinal Brady was also complicit in covering up for the raping scumbag Brendan Smyth and pressuring children to keep quiet. How much more of this absolute horror can people defend? The RCC is rotten to the core and guilty of the most awful crimes imaginable. Why won't they just hold their hands up and admit they are a hypocritical, inadequate organisation that are not fit for purpose.


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    #3
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,835 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I was watching that.
    Surely, he will have the moral decency to at least stand down now!
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17853126

    He has shown himself to be a liar (minimising his role in the investigation), and complicit in the crimes of Smith because he did not even inform the parents of the abused children about the abuse, preferring to put questions to the children to discover how much they may have enjoyed the experience.


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    #4
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Yet the amazing thing is that there are still individuals who will deny the existence of a cover up that had Vatican endorsement. I was actually sickened by that article even though much of it was already known to a degree.


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    #5
    unkel
    Registered Users Posts: 64,762 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    optogirl wrote: »
    And so we find now that Cardinal Brady was also complicit in covering up for the raping scumbag Brendan Smyth and pressuring children to keep quiet.

    Never believed anything that scumbag Brady said. Sickening it is though to see my intuition proved right :(


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    #6
    bnt
    Registered Users Posts: 12,957 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    robindch wrote: »
    The BBC's screening a documentary this evening entitled "This World: The Shame of the Catholic Church" and apparently concentrating on Sean Brady's role in the cover-up of Brendan Smyth's abuse:
    I'm watching this now, recorded last night. It's being repeated tonight (Wed) on BBC2 at 9PM.

    I have to admit that I'm never going to truly get how bad it was. I didn't grow up in Ireland, and while I was taken to Catholic Church as a kid and was an altar boy for a while, I was never in any danger of abuse. (It was a flying parish in a small town, meaning that the priest drove in from his parish, did the service, and went away again.)

    The program has things I wasn't aware of, such as just how big and influential St. Patrick's College, Maynooth was. The presenter says that the numbers of graduating priests has shrunk from 60-70 to 12 this year. That's not what Wikipedia says ... hmm.

    edit: Brady sounds like a broken record: "I did what I was there to do". Dunno about those "ambush interview" tactics, though - they might look good on TV, but they rarely get results.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



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    #7
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    bnt wrote: »
    I'm watching this now, recorded last night. It's being repeated tonight (Wed) on BBC2 at 9PM.

    I have to admit that I'm never going to truly get how bad it was. I didn't grow up in Ireland, and while I was taken to Catholic Church as a kid and was an altar boy for a while, I was never in any danger of abuse. (It was a flying parish in a small town, meaning that the priest drove in from his parish, did the service, and went away again.)

    The program has things I wasn't aware of, such as just how big and influential St. Patrick's College, Maynooth was. The presenter says that the numbers of graduating priests has shrunk from 60-70 to 12 this year. That's not what Wikipedia says ... hmm.

    edit: Brady sounds like a broken record: "I did what I was there to do". Dunno about those "ambush interview" tactics, though - they might look good on TV, but they rarely get results.

    Looks like as far as Rome is concerned Brady did exactly what they wanted him to do.
    The Vatican's senior sex crimes prosecutor has today defended Cardinal Sean Brady's handling of allegations of clerical sex abuse.

    Monsignor Charles Scicluna said the current primate had no case to answer over renewed allegations of mishandling information given to him in 1975 about serial sex abuser Fr Brendan Smyth.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0502/breaking8.html

    Why am I not even a little bit surprised.....?


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    #8
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,708 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    The BBC program now up on youtube.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ma9ALRpEVw

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHhyju2GfdE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZW0zG9y_eI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFvKokHnNrQ

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #9
    Newaglish
    Registered Users Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭Newaglish


    Cardinal Brady's response is on thejournal here

    Notable lack of any kind of apology or regret. His approach seems to be 'well the church guidelines said to take some notes and that's what I did'. Completely omits any sort of suggestion that he might involve the police because all of us ultimately know that their "investigation" was nothing more than a cover-up.


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    #10
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    And on the BBC:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17921673
    Marie Collins, via BBC wrote:
    "I'm amazed no bishops have come out and said he should go," she said. "We have priests and theologians being silenced by the Vatican - they can act against people whose views they feel are liberal, but they will not act against someone who not only endangered children but let them be abused. If Cardinal Brady came out and espoused the view that women should be ordained, he'd be gone within hours."


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    #11
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,291 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Newaglish wrote: »
    Cardinal Brady's response is on thejournal here
    cardinal brady wrote:
    Acting promptly and with the specific purpose of corroborating the evidence provided by Mr Boland, thereby strengthening the case against Brendan Smyth
    strengthening the case? what case? didn't do much to strengthen the case considering it was 1991 before an arrest warrant was issued.


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    #12
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    strengthening the case? what case?
    Presumably the case under canon law, since the whole point of this exercise was to hide it from the civil authorities. Brady was unable then, as he appears unable now, to accept that he has a primary responsibility to Irish law.

    And with respect to his claim that there were no guidelines for allegations of child abuse? FFS! If there weren't, then why didn't somebody propose some? And even in the absence of guidelines for allegations, well I haven't checked, but I'm assuming that (a) rape of children was a crime in 1974, and (b) ignorance of the law is no defense.


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    #13
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    "If i don't see it it's not illegal!"


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    On RTE news earlier there was some Montsignor or Shaman or whatever saying that he thought Brady met his moral obligations to the victims and society. I'm afraid to try to imagine what it would take for him to not have met his obligations.

    Just saw a sad clip there, a victim saying "he's not the man to lead our church". Just depressing that they still feel that they need the church.


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    #15
    dmw07
    Registered Users Posts: 238 ✭✭dmw07


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Just depressing that they still feel that they need the church.

    I've come to a conclusion that this will always be the sad truth. It's endemic in human psyche to be greedy, and there is no more a greedy thought than to want to live forever in an eternal bliss.


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    #16
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Galvasean wrote: »
    "If i don't see it it's not illegal!"

    Pass me that spliff and start lining up the cocaine lads - put first let us put on these blindfolds. ;)


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    #17
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    Presumably the case under canon law, since the whole point of this exercise was to hide it from the civil authorities. Brady was unable then, as he appears unable now, to accept that he has a primary responsibility to Irish law.

    And with respect to his claim that there were no guidelines for allegations of child abuse? FFS! If there weren't, then why didn't somebody propose some? And even in the absence of guidelines for allegations, well I haven't checked, but I'm assuming that (a) rape of children was a crime in 1974, and (b) ignorance of the law is no defense.

    +1
    Brady is essentially trying to use The Nuremburg Defence, and he's trying to deflect all the blame onto the Norbertine Abbot (who was forced to resign long ago).
    Brady wrote:
    I had absolutely no authority over Brendan Smyth. Even my Bishop had limited authority over him. The only people who had authority within the Church to stop Brendan Smyth from having contact with children were his Abbot in the Monastery in Kilnacrott and his Religious Superiors in the Norbertine Order.
    His epic fail was to "only follow orders", and to totally ignore all other options, including the Gardai, the RUC, and the newspapers, anyone at all who might have taken some action.
    At the same time, this strategy is exactly what got him where he is today, top man of RCC in Ireland.


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    #18
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,867 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Reading Brady's statement, it's obvious that, to this day, the only 'authorities' they recognise are in Rome.

    They still don't get it. At all.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #19
    F12
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 146 ✭✭F12


    ninja900 wrote: »
    Reading Brady's statement, it's obvious that, to this day, the only 'authorities' they recognise are in Rome.

    They still don't get it. At all.

    Still don't? Still won't? Still can't? They can't believe that they could be wrong. Such humility in the face of truth. ;)


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    #20
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    Thanks for putting those up, Koth. I missed the show when it was on tv.
    It's hard to put it coherently how angry that programme made me.


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    #21
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Given the amount of commentary that's appeared in recent days over Brady's handling of the Brendan Smyth abuse fiasco, it's probably best to keep it all in the one thread for the time being and possibly merge it back in with the other thread when things calm down again.


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    #22
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Fr Brian d'Arcy calls for Brady's resignation (wonder how that got last the censor):

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/i-couldnt-go-on-if-i-was-cardinal-brady-fr-darcy-3097677.html

    Eamon Gilmore says the same:

    http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ojojauaueyau/


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    #23
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,291 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    it's gas the way responsibility always flows up. despite seeming to have been the most senior of the three priests (certainly in terms of knowledge of canon law), brady claims he was too junior to do anything about it.

    i suppose it makes a change from the 'blame the intern' approach, but the intern is not dead and buried here.


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    #24
    Chiliroses
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭Chiliroses


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Looks like as far as Rome is concerned Brady did exactly what they wanted him to do.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0502/breaking8.html

    Why am I not even a little bit surprised.....?

    They're as thick as thieves the whole lot of them, it's no wonder so many people have given up on going to mass and the lot of it..


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    #25
    joseph brand
    Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    From the BBC programme.
    Paul Breslin says "When other children were out playing I was taken down to the beach and raped".

    That is so sad. I'm biting my lip so I don't cry. :(


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    #26
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    Brady was a 36 year old adult at the time of this incident with free will.
    He was complicit in child rape. His position is untenable.


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    #27
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Looking briefly at a rerun of the BBC documentary last night, I must say I felt slightly sorry for Brady. Certainly not because of what he did or what he failed to do, and clearly not for what happened on account of his inaction and the drumbeat denial of responsibility, but simply because Brady still doesn't get it.

    He came across simply as an elderly man, powerless, shocked, surprised, upset, uncomprehending and in total disbelief that the wheels, if they were ever there to start with, have finally and unreservedly come off the system he's pledged his life to uphold. That the house rules of his organization, and the morals it promotes, thought perfect and infallible, are all now seen as too fallible now offer him, in what seem to be years of rapid decline, no protection from the just accusation of moral inadequacy. And neither do the rules and habits of the church offer him the precedent or even possibility of resignation or retreat with honor intact - an unenviable situation for somebody of his age and station.

    The words of the cardinal's oath must be sticking in his throat:
    Cardinal Brady wrote:
    I [name and surname], Cardinal of the Holy Roman Church, promise and swear to be faithful henceforth and forever, while I live, to Christ and his Gospel, being constantly obedient to the Holy Roman Apostolic Church, to Blessed Peter in the person of the Supreme Pontiff Benedict XVI, and of his canonically elected Successors; to maintain communion with the Catholic Church always, in word and deed; not to reveal to any one what is confided to me in secret, nor to divulge what may bring harm or dishonor to Holy Church; to carry out with great diligence and faithfulness those tasks to which I am called by my service to the Church, in accord with the norms of the law.
    He upheld the rules to the letter, but doing so has brought nothing but harm and dishonor to the church -- that's got to be an impossibly hard thing for him to accept.

    And another seven and a half years to his retirement at the age of 80 in 2019? That relief must look desperately distant to him at the moment and frankly, I don't see him making it.

    .


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    #28
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Pressure seems to be building on him to resign but you would think someone higher up would step in and force him out. If the Church want to build bridges and repair their reputation this is not the way to do it. Can they not see that? The silence from the priests has been pretty disgusting too..why don't they speak out?


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    #29
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,708 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Church in crisis: At least 30 abused after Cardinal Brady didn’t report Smyth
    NOTORIOUS paedophile priest Brendan Smyth abused 30 or more children in the years after Cardinal Sean Brady failed to report his crimes, a former RUC officer has revealed.

    Pressure was growing on Dr Brady to resign today as Barnardo’s chief Fergus Finlay joined the calls for him to step down.

    Dr Brady’s position is becoming increasingly untenable after new revelations about his failure to report child rape allegations or inform the parents of some of Smyth's victims.

    The cardinal admitted that there had been nothing to stop him going to civil authorities about accusations against the serial paedophile.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #30
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    eviltwin wrote: »
    why don't they speak out?
    They're not allowed to.

    It's only a week since news leaked out concerning the Vatican's censorship of priests who air their grievances in public.


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    #31
    kiki
    Registered Users Posts: 111 ✭✭kiki


    OP asked if "holed and sunk"

    I expect he will resign in next couple of days if not hours.

    There is really only two views on this that are relevant and both lead me to the same conclusion.

    First view if you agree that he has a case to answer, perhaps not a legal one, but definitely a moral one. And I am of the opinion that he has a case to answer as a citizen of the state - any person with a normal moral compass would have done more than simply passed information on, swore people to silence and put head down. Any person with a normal compass would at the very least informed parents of the victims of his findings or alternatively ensured that those parents were informed in a timely manner. For me this isnt whether someone is a priest or not - it just normal social decency. Yes he is holed and sunk and should resign.

    Second view - If you disagree and and think he has no case to answer then I ask - How can he expect to have any publicly accepted authority to preach as a priest or provide moral guidance. In this case he is also "holed and sunk" should also resign without delay.

    Woody


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