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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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Comments

  • #2162
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    Maybe.

    But I read somewhere, long time ago, that even in densely populated Germany infrastructure projects attract about one eight of the objections they do in Ireland.

    If that is true (?) than it seems to indicate that our "planning process" facilitates cranks to an excessive degree.

    Stuttgart 21 would be an interesting and somewhat analogous case study.


  • #2163
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    Aard wrote: »
    Stuttgart 21 would be an interesting and somewhat analogous case study.

    Had to google it. Seems like the exception that proves the rule.


  • #2164
    Aard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    Some off-topic posts moved to a new thread: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057446633

    Any issues, let me know :)

    -mod.


  • #2165
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    While this thread is here on the front page, I'd like to ask the following question for purely speculative purposes.

    Does anyone know the depth of the proposed route in and around the bit between the Brewery and Heuston Station?

    I ask this because if the depth is sufficient, there might be scope for creating a road underpass (like along the river in Rome, for example) between Victoria Quay and St. John's Road at around the same time as (or before) construction of the DART project.

    Eastbound traffic currently travels over the bridge at Heuston, but this need not always be the case.

    If there were scope for building an underpass at that location, it could lead to the creation of a nice plaza in front of and around Heuston, and would almost certainly allow a greater throughput of trams at that location.


  • #2166
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    Thus, for example, it could become feasible to build a Walkinstown to Broadstone tram line which shares track with the red line between (say) James' Street and Church Street. At the moment this probably wouldn't be doable, because of the traffic around Heuston, but Steevens' Lane and Benburb Street would seem to be ripe for higher throughputs of trams.


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  • #2167
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Schadenfreudia wrote: »
    Maybe.

    But I read somewhere, long time ago, that even in densely populated Germany infrastructure projects attract about one eight of the objections they do in Ireland.

    If that is true (?) than it seems to indicate that our "planning process" facilitates cranks to an excessive degree.

    Germans can't use their common sense to cross a road without cars on it, they need a light to instruct them to cross. Compliance isn't always a good thing.


  • #2168
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Germans can't use their common sense to cross a road without cars on it, they need a light to instruct them to cross. Compliance isn't always a good thing.

    There is a balance to be struck here our system is loaded in favour of the negative whiners.

    I'll make no generalised comments about the German mindset :)


  • #2169
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    Any sign of the updated business case for this, I assume a decision is forthcoming soon?

    http://www.dttas.ie/speeches/2015/speech-dublin-chambers-transport-strategy-dublin-minister-transport-tourism-and-sport


  • #2170
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    Any sign of the updated business case for this, I assume a decision is forthcoming soon?

    http://www.dttas.ie/speeches/2015/speech-dublin-chambers-transport-strategy-dublin-minister-transport-tourism-and-sport

    For "updated business case" read "the only thing we'll do here is spend another decade or two talking about it" :mad:


  • #2171
    hardy_buck
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭hardy_buck


    From that report, 0.7% of GDP spent on infrastructure? Compared to Eastern European countries to which our underdeveloped infrastrucure is similar to, that's well below their spend. It is little wonder why we have such a deprived national infrastructure sometimes

    http://internationaltransportforum.org/statistics/investment/invindex.html

    Can't post direct link to PDF but this document compares all the different types of spending based on region...


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  • #2172
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    Under the terms of a High Court ruling in early-2014, the govt must make a decision by September 2015 to proceed with Dart Underground under the 2012 Railway Order.

    Here's Leo Varadkar on it in a Dail Answer to Catherine Murphy TD last year when he was still Minister for Transport.

    http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2014041000062?opendocument


  • #2173
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    hardy_buck wrote: »
    From that report, 0.7% of GDP spent on infrastructure? Compared to Eastern European countries to which our underdeveloped infrastrucure is similar to, that's well below their spend. It is little wonder why we have such a deprived national infrastructure sometimes

    http://internationaltransportforum.org/statistics/investment/invindex.html

    Can't post direct link to PDF but this document compares all the different types of spending based on region...

    Isn't our GDP seriously skewed by multinational profits ? If you did the same stats based on GNP would we still be at the bottom of the list - ( plus figures from the last 7 or so years are gonna be low )

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #2174
    Bayberry
    Registered Users Posts: 707 ✭✭✭Bayberry


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Isn't our GDP seriously skewed by multinational profits ? If you did the same stats based on GNP would we still be at the bottom of the list - ( plus figures from the last 7 or so years are gonna be low )
    The GDP figure is inflated by about 20% - enough that GNP is considered a better measure than GDP for Ireland, but not enough to explain the difference noted above.


  • #2175
    hardy_buck
    Registered Users Posts: 125 ✭✭hardy_buck


    Bayberry wrote: »
    The GDP figure is inflated by about 20% - enough that GNP is considered a better measure than GDP for Ireland, but not enough to explain the difference noted above.

    It's still much lower a spend than our 'competitors' are spending.. It would be interesting to see what the comparitive figures are on other areas of expenditure like welfare etc.. Although I don't want to drag this thread off topic.

    To bring it back on topic, is there any projection of the amount of jouneys this would see a day/year/some other timeslice?
    More importantly how many cars would this take off Dublins roads?


  • #2176
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,427 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    Where was our infrastructure spending during the boom ?
    I know we built motorways and bought trains -( didn't invest much in rails or water/ water treatment though) .

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • #2177
    random_guy
    Registered Users Posts: 213 ✭✭random_guy


    I see the resignalling project is getting EU funding MASSIVE FILE - page 121


  • #2178
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,840 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    Where was our infrastructure spending during the boom ?
    billions upon billions invested in benchmarking and double digit welfare increases, at a time of full employment. Fantastic "investment" :rolleyes:


  • #2179
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,609 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    During the boom and times of record low unemployment levels of 4% Bertie Aherns government somehow managed to employ an extra 5,000 public servants in the Department of Social Welfare alone.

    Says it all really.


  • #2180
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    During the boom and times of record low unemployment levels of 4% Bertie Aherns government somehow managed to employ an extra 5,000 public servants in the Department of Social Welfare alone.

    Says it all really.
    Same situation as Greece, but you will still have people who are arguing tooth and nail for this over any PPP or privatisation - "super-quango" being the buzzword at the moment.


  • #2181
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,337 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The problem with most PPP contracts is it is the public bit that has the risk and the private bit that has the profits.


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  • #2182
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The problem with most PPP contracts is it is the public bit that has the risk and the private bit that has the profits.

    Exactly,
    Look at the Bernard Macnamara ppp's he welched on in Fatima Manions and O Devanny gardens


  • #2183
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,337 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Exactly,
    Look at the Bernard Macnamara ppp's he welched on in Fatima Manions and O Devanny gardens

    And all the toll roads, tunnels and bridges that charge the puplic purse when the traffic does not turn up, but West Link sold to the taxpayer at 50 times the construction cost despite making huge profits in the meantime.


  • #2184
    Pete_Cavan
    Registered Users Posts: 6,698 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    And all the toll roads, tunnels and bridges that charge the puplic purse when the traffic does not turn up, but West Link sold to the taxpayer at 50 times the construction cost despite making huge profits in the meantime.

    The terms of the tender for those projects was that the contractor collects the tolls and the government make up any shortfall. Do you think any contractor would actually build the road if they weren’t going to receive their tendered sum in payment? The government of the day decided these would be the terms of the contract and all tenderers bid on that basis and the lowest bid won. Its not like the contractor made up the terms and offered to build the road in return for the tolls and had hidden in the small print that extra money would be paid if the tolls were not enough. It is like a standard construction contract were the contractor gets paid by the client, only in this case the client is using income generated by the road as part of the payment. The fact that the tolls don’t cover the annual payments to the contractor is not a fault of the contractor or the contract itself, it’s the government who got their figures wrong in terms of road usage. None of this is an inherent problem of PPPs, the problem is with the terms of these particular PPPs and the people who wrote them.

    This may have no relevance to DU as I do not know of any direct income being ringfenced for the contractor. If it is a PPP, it is most likely that the repayments to the contractor will be made by the NDFA/NTMA through the sale of bonds. Most of the benefits from DU will be indirect (increase in efficiency, making the city more attractive to employers and investors etc.) anyway so it makes sense to use wider funds to pay for it rather than just direct revenue.


  • #2185
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,337 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Have you read any of these PPP contracts?

    They scream something to me.


  • #2186
    Schadenfreudia
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Schadenfreudia


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Have you read any of these PPP contracts?

    They scream something to me.

    Please share?


  • #2187
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 564 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    hearing that the DU scheme will have to be scaled back as scheme not fully funded and the planning process will be restarted


  • #2188
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,680 ✭✭✭jd


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    hearing that the DU scheme will have to be scaled back as scheme not fully funded and the planning process will be restarted
    Scaled back(down)? Not sure how they could scale it down. Save a few quid by omitting Christchurch ? Or did you mean pushed back?


  • #2189
    alias no.9
    Registered Users Posts: 6,263 ✭✭✭alias no.9


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Exactly,
    Look at the Bernard Macnamara ppp's he welched on in Fatima Manions and O Devanny gardens

    Fatima Mansions are long gone and the regeneration project complete, when was the last time you were in the area? Leveling of the tenements and replacement with mass public housing schemes like Fatima were hardly a roaring success. It remains to be seen whether leveling of the mass public housing schemes and replacement with PPPs will be any better but it can hardly be any worse. It's disappointing that St Michaels Estate and O'Devaney Gardens redevelopment fell by the wayside but make no mistake, had they been 100% state funded the same would have happened, it's wasn't just the developers that went bankrupt.

    Back on topic, it;s disappointing that Dart Underground is going to slip again. Our borrowing costs are close to an all time low. If ever there was a scheme worthy of issuing of 30 or 50 year bonds, this is it. The government should be taking their Austerity Posterboy status to Brussels and pushing the case for this one major infrastructure investment outside of the Growth and Stability Pact.


  • #2190
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,264 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    hearing that the DU scheme will have to be scaled back as scheme not fully funded and the planning process will be restarted

    How? ommiting Christchurch?

    Every other stop is an interchange and there's no possibility of any surface running.

    It could be split into phases Pearse to Clontarf Rd and Pearse to Heuston but any short term saving would be marginal.


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  • #2191
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    hearing that the DU scheme will have to be scaled back as scheme not fully funded and the planning process will be restarted

    Hearing this from where?


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