DART+ (DART Expansion)

ClovenHoof · 08-12-2010 8:09pm

That's an excellent point. MN could be the DART Underground's salvation. So people should not be so quick to knock it. If MN gets built and it look a dead cert then the DU will become an almost organic next step.

ClovenHoof · 08-12-2010 8:19pm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

The Burma Road (Coolooney-Claremorris for those who don't know) was never part of the WRC reopening plan.

What are you on about!!!! I went to a West on Track rally in Tubbercurry in 2003 and they had a big speech about trains serving the town once again. They bussed in school kids from other towns to make it look like a huge crowd turned out. There was with the busesd-in kids about 35 people in front of the priest as he spoke about Liner Trains from Sligo Quay serving the factories (now all closed on their last leg) in Tubbercurry industrial estate.

Did I imagine all this? Did I imagine Derek Wheeler of P11 being told by a West on Track memeber on NorthWest Radio that trains would run over Swinford Viaduct again no matter what "the Pale" thinks? Did I imagine endless visiting politicians standing in the ruins of Tubbercurry station pledging their support?

At what point did I develop these delusional fantsies?

In fact, in the original West on Track working report the Burma Road was Stage One to be built in tandem with the southern section with both crew eventually meeting in Claremorris.

You have completely rewitten history - more importantly there is a big bloody poster on the approach roads to Tubbercurry right now with WE WANT OUR RAILWAY BACK. It was only put up a couple of months ago.

"for those who don't know" indeed...:rolleyes:

Transportuser09 · 08-12-2010 9:19pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

What are you on about!!!! I went to a West on Track rally in Tubbercurry in 2003 and they had a big speech about trains serving the town once again. They bussed in school kids from other towns to make it look like a huge crowd turned out. There was with the busesd-in kids about 35 people in front of the priest as he spoke about Liner Trains from Sligo Quay serving the factories (now all closed on their last leg) in Tubbercurry industrial estate.

Did I imagine all this? Did I imagine Derek Wheeler of P11 being told by a West on Track memeber on NorthWest Radio that trains would run over Swinford Viaduct again no matter what "the Pale" thinks? Did I imagine endless visiting politicians standing in the ruins of Tubbercurry station pledging their support?

At what point did I develop these delusional fantsies?

In fact, in the original West on Track working report the Burma Road was Stage One to be built in tandem with the southern section with both crew eventually meeting in Claremorris.

You have completely rewitten history - more importantly there is a big bloody poster on the approach roads to Tubbercurry right now with WE WANT OUR RAILWAY BACK. It was only put up a couple of months ago.

"for those who don't know" indeed...:rolleyes:

I'm not referring to WOT. I'm referring to the official Transport 21 plan. This never referred to reopening north of Claremorris, all that was to be done was preservation of the alignment in case it was ever viable to reopen in the future...not that I think it ever will be.

There was also an Eco-eye programme which implied that a brand new line to Donegal would be constructed...stuff like this doesn't really help the image of the project. The reality of the WRC project seems to have gotten muddled with myths and dreams.

ClovenHoof · 11-12-2010 4:41pm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

I'm not referring to WOT. I'm referring to the official Transport 21 plan.

There's a difference?

Transportuser09 · 11-12-2010 7:39pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

There's a difference?

Of course there is. WOT are just a lobby group like railusers Ireland/platform 11, SWIFT etc... T21 is (at least was) the official govt. plan for transport. WOT would hardly have included the Navan, Midleton, DU, MN, Luas projects etc..., would they.

DWCommuter · 12-12-2010 11:46pm

ClovenHoof wrote: »

That's an excellent point. MN could be the DART Underground's salvation. So people should not be so quick to knock it. If MN gets built and it look a dead cert then the DU will become an almost organic next step.

You don't really believe that do you?:D

DWCommuter · 12-12-2010 11:59pm

Jack Noble wrote: »

I wouldn't get too hung up about Dart Underground not being funded next year as it's now only before An Bord Pleanala and, based on how long ABP took with Metro North (26 months), it's unlikely we'll see the Railway Order approved before mid-2012, possibly longer. If ABP make any significant changes that may require another RO or other redesign, it will be highly unlikely that DartU will be ready for construction before mid- to late-2013, at the earliest.

This is really a decision for the next government and supporters really should be now working on lobbying Fine Gael and Labour TDs, candidates and potential ministers to get DartU back on the agenda and into the four-year plan.

Dart U has its supporters in the senior ranks of both parties in the same way Metro North does and these people need to be lobbied.

It also has opponents, including Labour's own transport spokesman, Joe Costello (Dublin Central) - who is coming under serious pressure from his constituents in East Wall. He hit out at its inclusion in the Four-Year Plan (before we all discovered 'the tunnel section' wasn't in said plan) and he is due to make a presentation to the ABP Oral Hearings on DartU - and I'll bet it won't be in favour of the project. He needs to be lobbied too, although it's highly unlikely he'll be transport minister in any new govt.

It looks like Metro North will now go ahead, if the PPP figures stack up, and this could be a positive thing for DartU as MetroN cannot possibly fulfill its potential without interchanging with Dart. This means DartU will be essential and must be built. That needs to be emphasised if and when Metro construction begins. FG and Lab must be persuaded to back the project in government. FF and SF will hardly then oppose it if they do seeing as FF launched the project and SF support such public investments.

:D:D

Are you a politician, wannabe politician or RPA employee? Quite frankly you are sounding like a Ladybird books employee and if you aren't then maybe you could have a lucrative future there.

"Looks like" and "must" are words associated with failure to actually "do" and hopefully we will someday, but not someday soon according to the countrys balance sheet.

Current lobbyists are total failures. Despite the brief period in the early/mid noughties, lobbying has been very week. A throwback to the boom years I feel. Complacency, belief and expectation are still in evidence. The age profile of the so called lobbyists is yet another barrier to achievement.

Egos didn't exist in the 1980s!:D

Tech3 · 15-12-2010 4:56pm

It is a disgrace that this project has been put on the backburner. It will actually connect the cities public transport together rather than have seperate lines going their own way and not serving the maximum potential poplulation of public transport users.

Jack Noble · 15-12-2010 5:20pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

:D:D

Are you a politician, wannabe politician or RPA employee? Quite frankly you are sounding like a Ladybird books employee and if you aren't then maybe you could have a lucrative future there.

"Looks like" and "must" are words associated with failure to actually "do" and hopefully we will someday, but not someday soon according to the countrys balance sheet.

Current lobbyists are total failures. Despite the brief period in the early/mid noughties, lobbying has been very week. A throwback to the boom years I feel. Complacency, belief and expectation are still in evidence. The age profile of the so called lobbyists is yet another barrier to achievement.

Egos didn't exist in the 1980s!:D

None of the above. Just a Dublin citizen who wants to see this done ASAP.

And most of the FG and Labour TDs I have spoken to re DartU want it to proceed too. Some of them even understand the project and have come a long way since Olivia Mitchell's 'we don't need another rail connection between Heuston and Connolly, we've got the Luas', hard as that is to believe.

Problem now is (a) lack of resources and (b) certain politicians in both parties playing politics. Until they are in government, we really won't see the colour of their money re both DartU and Metro North.

That is why it is imperative supporters of both projects lobby TDs and candidates of both parties to proceed with them. If certain influences within Labour in particular are allowed to gain ground then both projects are dead for another generation. And that simply cannot be allowed to happen.

I'm lobbying TDs I know. And will be putting it to any candidate that comes looking for my vote. What are you doing - apart from constant whingeing and nay-saying on websites?

And I know exactly who you are - and the negativity hasn't changed one iota since you were on the Platform 11/Rail Users Ireland forum.

ClovenHoof · 15-12-2010 6:07pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

You don't really believe that do you?:D

Of course not, I had been smoking salvia that day and the curtain between relaity and fantasy was blowing in the breeze.

The only way anyone will ever travel underground between Docklands and Inchicore is if the whole route is turned into a cemetary.

Transportuser09 · 15-12-2010 8:58pm

Jack Noble wrote: »

None of the above. Just a Dublin citizen who wants to see this done ASAP.

And most of the FG and Labour TDs I have spoken to re DartU want it to proceed too. Some of them even understand the project and have come a long way since Olivia Mitchell's 'we don't need another rail connection between Heuston and Connolly, we've got the Luas', hard as that is to believe.

Problem now is (a) lack of resources and (b) certain politicians in both parties playing politics. Until they are in government, we really won't see the colour of their money re both DartU and Metro North.

That is why it is imperative supporters of both projects lobby TDs and candidates of both parties to proceed with them. If certain influences within Labour in particular are allowed to gain ground then both projects are dead for another generation. And that simply cannot be allowed to happen.

I'm lobbying TDs I know. And will be putting it to any candidate that comes looking for my vote. What are you doing - apart from constant whingeing and nay-saying on websites?

And I know exactly who you are - and the negativity hasn't changed one iota since you were on the Platform 11/Rail Users Ireland forum.

Well said.

DWCommuter · 15-12-2010 9:58pm

Jack Noble wrote: »

What are you doing - apart from constant whingeing and nay-saying on websites?

And I know exactly who you are - and the negativity hasn't changed one iota since you were on the Platform 11/Rail Users Ireland forum.

Two interesting points there Jack.:D

What am I doing - apart from constant whingeing and nay - saying on websites?

Right now? Nothing. Why should I? I did my bit. My colleagues and I put it on the map in 2004. Before that, the public and indeed a raft of TDs hadn't even heard of it. The "Extend the DART" campaign was very successfull. Remember that?;) Every TD in the GDA was linked to it. Add to that the numerous public meetings, press releases and media appearances. In fact myself and a voluntary organisation did more than anyone to publicise this project. Because of what I did, you get the chance to carry the torch for the project.

And I know exactly who you are - and the negativity hasn't changed one iota since you were on the Platform 11/Rail Users Ireland forum.

I honestly don't think you have a clue who I am or what I stand for Jack. My negativity is grounded in previous experience of dealing with TDs and Government regarding this project. So far my "negativity" as you refer to it, has been proven correct. I much prefer to call it reality By all means lobby away, but I'm entitled to the view (based on actual experience) that its futile, unless its a heavy handed method. Current lobbying organisations are weak and not clued into the mindset that exists at a political level. Ive been there before. Nothing has changed.

And for the record comparisons between a DU campaign and the WRC campaign are like chalk and cheese. So just in case anyone is about to shoot that line out - spare me.

DWCommuter · 15-12-2010 10:00pm

Transportuser09 wrote: »

Well said.

And were you around in 2004 taking an interest, when all this lobbying of TDs first took place? Jacks post is nothing special.

Jack Noble · 16-12-2010 1:04am

DWCommuter wrote: »

Two interesting points there Jack.:D

What am I doing - apart from constant whingeing and nay - saying on websites?

Right now? Nothing. Why should I? I did my bit. My colleagues and I put it on the map in 2004. Before that, the public and indeed a raft of TDs hadn't even heard of it. The "Extend the DART" campaign was very successfull. Remember that?;) Every TD in the GDA was linked to it. Add to that the numerous public meetings, press releases and media appearances. In fact myself and a voluntary organisation did more than anyone to publicise this project. Because of what I did, you get the chance to carry the torch for the project.

And I know exactly who you are - and the negativity hasn't changed one iota since you were on the Platform 11/Rail Users Ireland forum.

I honestly don't think you have a clue who I am or what I stand for Jack. My negativity is grounded in previous experience of dealing with TDs and Government regarding this project. So far my "negativity" as you refer to it, has been proven correct. I much prefer to call it reality By all means lobby away, but I'm entitled to the view (based on actual experience) that its futile, unless its a heavy handed method. Current lobbying organisations are weak and not clued into the mindset that exists at a political level. Ive been there before. Nothing has changed.

And for the record comparisons between a DU campaign and the WRC campaign are like chalk and cheese. So just in case anyone is about to shoot that line out - spare me.

DW, I withdraw the sly dig - I was peed off at your little go at me and fired off a salvo. Petty of me. Mea culpa.

I do acknowledge all the hard work you did with others in P11 to get DartU on to the agenda. It is a pity you all fell out.

However, it is now firmly on the agenda and more advanced than many people ever believed possible. Did you ever believe you would see it at RO stage with Bord Pleanala?

I believe it is more important than ever to push this project with TDs and prospective TDs in both FG and Labour. As I said, it has important supporters within both parties, as well as opponents.

Both parties need to reminded that the only reason DU and MN are on the agenda now is because FG and Labour abandoned the original Dart project in the mid-80s. Do they really want to repeat history in 2011-2016?

Once the railway order is approved, then it is imperative that the case is pushed both publicly in the media and privately with the politicians.

Now is not the time to be giving up on DartU or Metro, even though you are not its biggest fan. If anything, the next few years are when efforts should be stepped up.

That's my two cents...

DWCommuter · 16-12-2010 2:21am

Jack Noble wrote: »

DW, I withdraw the sly dig - I was peed off at your little go at me and fired off a salvo. Petty of me. Mea culpa...

I had a go at you so we are even.;)

It is a pity you all fell out.

We didn't. I left amicably (and for personal reasons) and then it all went downhill.

Did you ever believe you would see it at RO stage with Bord Pleanala?

Yes I did. What I don't believe is that there is a will to actually build it. MN is through that process and I remain convinced it won't be built either.

Both parties need to reminded that the only reason DU and MN are on the agenda now is because FG and Labour abandoned the original Dart project in the mid-80s. Do they really want to repeat history in 2011-2016?

Not really an accurate depiction of events. The original DART plan was abandoned because a FF Government forced CIE to borrow the money to build the first phase from Howth to Bray. The FF Government rediverted the European funding. earmarked for it. So as well as CIEs broader deficit, the loan repayments crippled them and made them even more dependent on state funding. Thats why the FG lead Government took the stance they took in the mid 80s.

As I alluded to in my earlier post, by all means continue lobbying. That can only be a positive move. But the terrain on which you do it is really a case of the cards being stacked against you. The political culture needs to change first and thats an entirely different type of lobbying.

Transportuser09 · 16-12-2010 6:43pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

And were you around in 2004 taking an interest, when all this lobbying of TDs first took place? Jacks post is nothing special.

How is this relavent? No I was never actually on a formal committee, no doubt we would have met if I had been. You can still lobby TDs without being on a committee. I was agreeing with Jack Noble's comments about keeping it on the political agenda rather than have it "disappear" like the original plans years ago.

popebenny16 · 21-12-2010 1:58pm

2020 - if you're lucky.

what DWC says about lobbying politicans is very sadly correct. how I wish i had the budget to lobby them in the correct and proper manner. how i wish i could take them out to shanahans on the green and explain to them how much DART underground is not only needed but it is actually somehting which if not built will lead to our losing compitativeness and groud to other comparible cities - for some reason i have found that our TD's and councilors are more receptive to listening to arguments in those sort of locations, or at an all expenses paid launch of some project or other. the humdrum of going to Leinster House and meeting opposition spokespeople, or being met in a crappy office from 1974 in what used to be Ag House just seems to make it harder for them top understand what you are saying.

Alas, the mention of Mr Costello above says it all. At the moment as Transport Spokesman he is not and cannot be said to be putting the interests of his electorate over the needs of the capital city and therefore the country as a whole. Not like that Mr Gormley and his difficulties with that incinerator.

The reality is that, and let us be totally frank about this, the voters of the GDA will moan, they will gaze into their pints and and they will give out - but in no consituancey will transport, much alone Rail Transport, be the great rallying cry that it is in the West. The built in sence of greivience is not there because they do not have TD's laying the blame on "dublin" for everything. Sure it happens in the midlands as well, I have seen many the TD standing up at meetings and berating Irish Rail Managment about "your buses your Luases and your Trains" in "dublin" which gets the crowd going and who all remeber that Jonny got a doig in at Dublin, sure they didnt like that those Dublin people.

Its true. Do you think that Metro nor Luas will be anywhere near the top of priorities of any Dublin TD next year? Nope. However, you can bet your bottom euro it will be in Mayo - the fact that there is a Luas in dublin and no ICE type train twixt Claremorris and Tuam will be a scandal.

Yes, we need leadership and concern from those at the top table. Look at the specimin we have as minister for transport. He is so useless he couldnt even get the railway built to his own county. No wonder he retired.

Lobbying in Ireland means money, photo ops, prestige and compleatly kissing the ring of the TD's you want to get to influence. Other than that it needs to be an election winner which the prospective or outgoing TD needs to latch onto in terror and that aint Rail in the GDA.

Jack Noble · 12-01-2011 11:16am

It seems Mary Lou McDonald of Sinn Fein is following fellow Dublin Central candidate and Labour transport spokesman Joe Costello's lead and now opposes Dart Underground because such a stance will be a vote-winner in East Wall due to local residents' opposition to construction at the CIE site there.

Here's a release she issued to the media on Sunday. As of yet, I haven't seen it picked up anywhere.

However, it is not on her website www.maryloumcdonald.ie and is not on the press releases section of official Sinn Fein website.

http://www.sinnfein.ie/archive/newsroom/2011/01

SF supports DartU and Metro so this seems to be a NIMBY solo run on Mary Lou's part.

Also shows her fundamental lack of understanding of the project and the planning process while her party colleagues seem much better briefed on Dart and Metro and favour construction of both.

Will Dublin Central candidates from other parties now follow the lead of Costello and McDonald in the run-up to the General Election to win votes in East Wall?

Mary Lou McDonald
Sinn Féin Dublin Central
Email: marylou@sinnfein.ie

Press Statement
Sunday, January 9th 2010

Dart Underground oral hearing resumes despite government scrapping of ‘tunnel element’ of project

Speaking ahead of tomorrows reopening of the Dart Underground An Bord Pleanála oral hearing in Croke Park Sinn Féin Deputy Leader Mary Lou McDonald has questioned the economic value of continuing with the design phase of the project whilst the Department of Transport refuses to provide a revised completion date for the project after scrapping the 2015 deadline.

The Dublin Central representative said: “When the government published its slash and burn 4-year budget late last year the Department of Transport stated that the Dart Underground project had not been cancelled, but that it would ‘not now be possible to deliver the tunnel element of the programme in the immediate period’ thus scrapping the original 2015 deadline.

“This is an Underground project. If the government cannot or will not fund the tunnel element of the programme of work then there really is no project left to speak of. In that light why is the state wasting money or oral hearings for a project that in real terms will not make it past the design phase.

“Improvements to the public transport infrastructure for Dublin and beyond are overdue and welcome. The worry for East Wall residents has been that communities in the city have historically been treated badly during major development projects and much of their daily hardship during these big builds could and should have been avoided. In my view the 3 C’s are of fundamental importance – consultation, consideration and common sense. That said it is hard to see the common sense or value in continuing a consultation process in a project that is now unlikely to see the light of day.”

To keep in touch with Mary Lou just log on to…
www.facebook.com/Mary Lou McDonald
www.twitter.com/MaryLouMcDonald
www.maryloumcdonald.ie

GizAGoOfYerGee · 12-01-2011 1:06pm

Dreadful grammar. :rolleyes:

Jack Noble · 12-01-2011 1:09pm

GizAGoOfYerGee wrote: »

Dreadful grammar. :rolleyes:

I really hope you're referring to Mary Lou....:rolleyes:

DWCommuter · 12-01-2011 1:17pm

Despite the projects postponement, had anyone in CIE considered taking the spoil out via the Royal Canal.

GizAGoOfYerGee · 12-01-2011 1:37pm

Jack Noble wrote: »

I really hope you're referring to Mary Lou....:rolleyes:

I am indeed.

Awful syntax and non-existent punctuation. A misery to read. Just what one should expect from a Sinn Féin 'press release'. Have you read Mary Lou's Twitter? Christ! :eek:

Lauder · 12-01-2011 2:00pm

GizAGoOfYerGee wrote: »

I am indeed.

Awful syntax and non-existent punctuation. A misery to read. Just what one should expect from a Sinn Féin 'press release'. Have you read Mary Lou's Twitter? Christ! :eek:

Hardly surprising is it, given the educational and professional attainment of your typical SFer.

Zebra3 · 12-01-2011 7:38pm

DWCommuter wrote: »

Despite the projects postponement, had anyone in CIE considered taking the spoil out via the Royal Canal.

How is it actually being removed? Via the port tunnel?

Pete_Cavan · 12-01-2011 8:14pm

Very fitting that a member of Sinn Fein, a party who rely on ancient prejudices for their core support, would oppose this project on the grounds that East Wall residents have "historically been treated badly during major development projects".

No point in working with the other stakeholders in the project to ensure there is as little disruption as possible during a construction period that would only last a few years with the end result being a piece of infrastructure that will benefit the area for the next 100 years now is there Mary?

bg07 · 12-01-2011 8:19pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

How is it actually being removed? Via the port tunnel?

In the Railway order it describes plans that have been developed for removal of spoil by rail via a newly constructed siding beside the existing docklands stations.

DWCommuter · 13-01-2011 6:12pm

bg07 wrote: »

In the Railway order it describes plans that have been developed for removal of spoil by rail via a newly constructed siding beside the existing docklands stations.

East Wall residents are claiming that the majority of waste is coming out via road and up to 390 additional truck movements will be on local roads.

Edit: IE claim 75% of waste will come out via rail.

L1011 · 13-01-2011 6:43pm

Lauder wrote: »

Hardly surprising is it, given the educational and professional attainment of your typical SFer.

Might apply to the members, but their sitting TDs include a secondary teacher, a civil engineer and a bank manager, so you'd think there'd at least be *someone* to proof-read.

Jack Noble · 13-01-2011 6:49pm

MYOB wrote: »

Might apply to the members, but their sitting TDs include a secondary teacher, a civil engineer and a bank manager, so you'd think there'd at least be *someone* to proof-read.

This looks like a solo run by Mary Lou - it was not issued through the SF press office and is not on their website press releases section. It also is counter to SF policy on Metro and DartU as told to me by a senior Dublin SF member before Christmas.

This looks like pure gombeen NIMBYism by MLM a la Costello. There's votes to be fought for in East Wall and DartU is an easy target to bash in search of those votes.

Kennedy35 · 15-01-2011 3:35am

Lauder wrote: »

Hardly surprising is it, given the educational and professional attainment of your typical SFer.

I suggest you all read the E.I.S for the application for a Railway Order for the DART Underground. It will take quite some time despite your superior "educational and professional attainment". A visit to the Oral Hearing should also be helpful to you.
I am not a member of any political party but am and always have been a resident of East Wall. Your derisory and childish remarks about Mary Lou McDonald and Joe Costello are quite in keeping with someone who displays a fundamental lack of knowledge of the project, as planned, and the negative impact it will have on our community.
Arrogance and stupidity together is what has brought this country to our current situation. You display both in abundance.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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