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Population density Versus Line rental charges

  • 30-01-2004 9:40am
    #1
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭


    Originally posted by dahamsta
    Lies, damn lies, and David McRedmond. Unbelievable.
    For a second there, I thought you were talking about Muck.

    Yet again, Muck is using statistics to mislead. Finland has thousands of square kilometers that have an infrastructure cost of €0, because there aren't any people at all in those areas.


Comments

  • #2
    dahamsta
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    Drop it, good dog.


  • #3
    spongebob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    Originally posted by Ripwave
    [B Finland has thousands of square kilometers that have an infrastructure cost of €0, because there aren't any people at all in those areas. [/B]

    **** off you you South Dublin Muppet :(

    Source CIA Source CIA again.

    Ireland . Land Area 68,890 KM2 , Pop 3,924,000 , = 57 Persons KM2
    Finland . Land Area 305,470 KM2 , Pop 5,191,000 , = 17 Persons KM2

    Finland has 3.35 times FEWER people per KM 2 than Ireland.

    1/4 of pop in biggest city = same
    Second biggest city much smaller than biggest = same
    poportion in ONE OFF houses = same

    Line Rental in Finland = €15 or so, even above the Artic Circle and that includes a higher VAT rate.

    M


  • #4
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by Muck
    **** off you you South Dublin Muppet :(
    What's wrong, Muck, is that chip on your shoulder bothering you again? You really should see someone about that.
    Source CIA Source CIA again.
    I'm still trying to decide whether you're too stupid to understand why the average population density tells you absolutely nothing about the cost of providing infrastructure to the population, or you're simply afraid to admit you're wrong.

    It doesn't take a Nobel prize winner to understand that if you have 100 people living in a village in the middle of 100 square kilometers of forest, the telcommunications infrastructure will cost a fraction of what it would cost if each of those 100 people lived in their own separate 1 square kilometer of forest. The "population density" is exactly the same - 1 person per square kilometer. But population denisty is NOT a simple predictor of infrastructure costs.
    Ireland . Land Area 68,890 KM2 , Pop 3,924,000 , = 57 Persons KM2
    Finland . Land Area 305,470 KM2 , Pop 5,191,000 , = 17 Persons KM2

    Finland has 3.35 times FEWER people per KM 2 than Ireland.
    So what? I've already posted the data that demonstrates that Finlands population is not spread evenly over the whole country, as Irelands is. The population structure is radically different, so your insistence on making an apples to oranges comparison is pointless.
    poportion in ONE OFF houses = same
    And your source for that "fact", Muck?

    Lies and misleading statistics aren't acceptable from oreillycoms spokespeople. They're not acceptable from amyone else either.


  • #5
    spongebob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    Originally posted by Ripwave
    So what? I've already posted the data that demonstrates that Finlands population is not spread evenly over the whole country, as Irelands is. The

    How did yoiu prove that ?

    M


  • #6
    maxheadroom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭maxheadroom


    As someone with a bit of knowledge of Finland (My GF is Finish and I've been there several times):

    1. - Not sure if this has been reported, but you can actually BUY your phone line and pay no rental on it.


    2. - I'd be inclined to agree with Ripwave about the one off housing thing, the only "houses" I saw in Helsinki were in a posh area, almost everyone seems to live in apartments. This is also true in smaller towns further north, but I didn't spend much / any time in the rural areas. I could probably dig up some facts on this if anyone's interested though...


    EDIT - Gah - must have been split while I was typing. /EDIT...


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  • #7
    Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 6,007 ✭✭✭Moriarty


    Split from here. Keep this stuff in this thread and this thread alone please. I dont want to see it spilling in to any other threads again. Ever.

    You can debate away to your hearts content about it in this thread.



    (Oh the humanity of it all. Ive changed the topic name. Let it never be said i was unaccommodating.)


  • #8
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by Muck
    How did yoiu prove that ?
    Here's some stuff that I posted thje last time that you embarrassed Ireland Offline by posting this "average population density" argument.

    From http://virtual.finland.fi/finfo/english/populat.html :
    The overall population density is 17 per km² of land, yet the density in the province of Uusimaa, which includes the capital, is almost 205 per km². The population density in the other, more industrialized southern provinces is over 30 per km², while that in the provinces of the east and north is less than 10 per km². Lapland is the most sparsely populated province, with a population density of only 2.2 persons per km².

    Here's 2 maps showing the population density of Ireland and Finland.

    Ireland has small chunks of very low density areas (in Donegal, Mayo, Galway West and Kerry) that have realtively low overall infrastructure costs, because the amount of infrastructure required is relatively low. Finland, on the other hand, has vast swathes of county that are essentially unpopulated, and the total cost of providing infrastructure in these areas is consequently low, even though the average cost of infrastructure in these areas is many times higher than in more densely populated areas.

    Lapland is 30% of Finlands area, Muck. By your argument, 30% of all telecommunications infrastructure spending should be occurring in Lapland.


  • #9
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,457 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I don't understand why everone keeps comparing Ireland and Finland, it is completely irrelevant.

    We all know that the line rental has no reflection on the actual costs of supplying the line, if it did then Eircom should have no problem allowing an independent auditor in to do a review.

    We all know that Eircom has been jacking up the line rental to improve its books for when it goes up for sale and to make up for the reductions it is making in areas where it faces competition.

    Therefore any comparsion is just pointless. The simple fact is Eircom is ouit to screw the customer for every penny it can get.

    If you want to make a comparison, then the UK is a better comparison, with a similiar sort of rural dispersment.

    Now give it up and lets concentrate on my useful things.


  • #10
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by Moriarty
    Split from here. Keep this stuff in this thread and this thread alone please. I dont want to see it spilling in to any other threads again. Ever.

    You can debate away to your hearts content about it in this thread.
    How about changing the thread title to the far more appropriate "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics".


  • #11
    spongebob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    Your map shows that the population of the 12 Pins (a wilderness) is the same as Galway City ....another wilderness and Limerick City which is another Wilderness.

    Your map of Finland shows slabs of Russia Norway and Sweden ....they are indeed uninhabited but its pretty hard to figure out the Finnish bit.

    This thread is about line rental and not about BB at all.

    Finns dont live in rows of indetical semis like the Dubs. They live in standalone houses if they live in a house at all.

    If 30 % of Finlan is 'empty' for the sake of argument then the population density per square KM is 5,100,000 Finns in 210000Km2 and not 305,000Km2 . Thats 24 Persons a KM 2 Why do the Finns , with 2/3rds the population density of Ireland pay 2/3rds of what we do for a phone line. They should pay 50% more than we do .

    Mind you....they have less roads (along which to put a telephone pole)

    M


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  • #12
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by Muck
    Your map shows that the population of the 12 Pins (a wilderness) is the same as Galway City ....another wilderness and Limerick City which is another Wilderness.
    Oh, so suddenly you're not so fond of "average population density", and you recognize that it's not a fair measure, because population isn't spread evenly over an area.

    Thanks for demonstrating the flaws in your own argument so very, very well. As before, I don't expect you to apologize for the personal abuse, but it's nice of you to acknowledge that your position is without foundation.
    Finns dont live in rows of indetical semis like the Dubs. They live in standalone houses if they live in a house at all.
    That's twice today that you've demonstrated your expertise on Finnish housing patterns. I suppose a source is out of the question?


  • #13
    SkepticOne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,718 ✭✭✭SkepticOne


    I agree with BK. It is simply Eircom jacking up the price in advance of their flotation as well as to position themselves better against future competition. They use the issue of population density simply because it is convenient. It has very little to do with the cost of provisioning and servicing of lines which is a much more complex topic.

    Most of Eircom's telephone lines were in place long before Valentia bought the company and whatever cost was involved in putting them is reflected in the price they paid. Most of the more recent ones they have installed will have been in medium-density housing estates. Only a minority of new lines will be in one-off rural housing.

    A better (although still imperfect) measure of the cost of maintanence would be the average length of line (taking into account splitters, etc) as this would reflect both the overall population densitiy as well as the distribution of urban to rural dwellers.


  • #14
    spongebob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    Originally posted by Ripwave
    Oh, so suddenly you're not so fond of "average population density", and you recognize that it's not a fair measure, because population isn't spread evenly over an area.
    I am extremly fond of average populatrion densities. On reworking my figures to allow for 30% uninhabited in Finland we still pay too much for line rental.....far too much. The Finns should pay a lot more than we do ...instead they pay a lot less.
    Do you have a less 'Redmondite' view of the matter then ?
    Thanks for demonstrating the flaws in your own argument so very, very well. As before, I don't expect you to apologize for the personal abuse.
    No , you can still ......
    but it's nice of you to acknowledge that your position is without foundation.
    Its simple. Even excluding 30% of Finland we are being ripped off.
    That's twice today that you've demonstrated your expertise on Finnish housing patterns. I suppose a source is out of the question?
    I suppose visiting the place for a week and driving around and not noticing any semis ) is fairly objective.
    Finns live in houses and not in flats or semis. Maybe this has changed recently.

    M


  • #15
    maxheadroom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭maxheadroom


    Originally posted by Muck
    I suppose visiting the place for a week and driving around and not noticing any semis ) is fairly objective.
    Finns live in houses and not in flats or semis. Maybe this has changed recently.


    [kinda OT]Which Part of Finland did you visit?


  • #16
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by SkepticOne
    I agree with BK. It is simply Eircom jacking up the price in advance of their flotation as well as to position themselves better against future competition. They use the issue of population density simply because it is convenient.
    Nobody's denying that oreillycom are charging way over the odds for line rental. The point of this "discussion" is that there's no point of accusing McRedmond of using "misleading" statistics, or even downright lying, if the only evidence you have against him is even more misleading statistics.

    Despite Mucks constant insistence to the contrary, "average population density" provides absolutely no guideline on what the appropriate costs for Line Rental are. Just ask the Canadians.


  • #17
    Ripwave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,188 ✭✭✭Ripwave


    Originally posted by Muck
    Do you have a less 'Redmondite' view of the matter then ?
    You're the one with the 'Redmondite' view, Muck - using baseless statistics that prove nothing to try and pull a fast one over the public. The only difference between you and McRedmond is that he's at least paid to do it.

    Lies and misleading statistics aren't acceptable just because they show oreillycom in a bad light.
    I suppose visiting the place for a week and driving around and not noticing any semis ) is fairly objective.
    I can take that as a "Yes, a source is out of the question", then, can I?


  • #18
    spongebob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭spongebob


    ....emm It was in a car not a bus and around the s/w .

    God only knows what you get paid to do Ripwave, I have yet to hear anything constructive of a long term nature from you.....hence 'Redmondite'

    If I had any vague idea what you stood for and wanted to achieve I may choose to agree with you, but I don't !

    M


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