Dublin Bus and Rush Hour

cson · 25-09-2012 7:07pm #1

I've had a couple of experiences the last 2 weeks I thought I'd relate.

Firstly; why do DB appear to roster drivers to switch shifts at the beginning of the rush hour period? On no less than 3 occasions the past week or so I've experienced the #16 pull up outside the Rotunda and wait for a new driver. This happened between 17.05 and 17.30 each time and the delay was typically 10-15mins.

Secondly; why does a bit of rain have such a drastic impact on services? I understand it forces more persons to use the bus but the past two mornings I've been stood outside the Drumcondra Rail Station inbound stop and had to wait upwards of 20-30 mins at rush hour for a bus stop served by 3 different routes that would have brought me to my destination.

While this is a semi-rant; I am interested in any solutions folks would see to the problems -i.e. how to make it a better service during rush hour. An immediate problem that would be easily solved that I can see is actually filling the buses. Two #16s passed me this morning with the driver gesturing to the people at the stop that he was full; he wasn't. What had happened is that everyone standing had congregated at the top of the bus and there was space down the aisle at the back. I don't know why Irish people do this, but I've only come across it here, people stubbornly staying up the front of the bus. In other countries the majority of people will fill the bus from the back up. I always make a point of it as a commuter anyway.

Obviously the easy thing to do is allow myself even more time to get but I do enjoy my sleep!

Bazzer2 · 26-09-2012 12:51am

I would have thought that rainy weather would entice more people to go back to their cars, which then impacts on traffic volumes and subsequently slows buses down.

foggy_lad · 26-09-2012 12:56am

Driver changes are not limited to Dublin bus with bus Eireann doing exactly the same with their city services except they will park buses up on busy city centre streets to wait for a driver replacement or for the time to roll over to the next departure time in the case of many cork city services on Patrick street.

Victor · 26-09-2012 1:01am

cson wrote: »

Firstly; why do DB appear to roster drivers to switch shifts at the beginning of the rush hour period? On no less than 3 occasions the past week or so I've experienced the #16 pull up outside the Rotunda and wait for a new driver. This happened between 17.05 and 17.30 each time and the delay was typically 10-15mins.

It is unacceptable. For services terminating at the airport, an arrangement should be made to have shift changes at the airport terminus if possible. I'm sure some arrangement could be made.

Secondly; why does a bit of rain have such a drastic impact on services? I understand it forces more persons to use the bus but the past two mornings I've been stood outside the Drumcondra Rail Station inbound stop and had to wait upwards of 20-30 mins at rush hour for a bus stop served by 3 different routes that would have brought me to my destination.

Traffic behaviour appears to have a greater effect than modal shift.

While this is a semi-rant; I am interested in any solutions folks would see to the problems -i.e. how to make it a better service during rush hour. An immediate problem that would be easily solved that I can see is actually filling the buses. Two #16s passed me this morning with the driver gesturing to the people at the stop that he was full; he wasn't. What had happened is that everyone standing had congregated at the top of the bus and there was space down the aisle at the back. I don't know why Irish people do this, but I've only come across it here, people stubbornly staying up the front of the bus.

Humans intelligent, people stupid. Centre doors should help with this.

However, note that on the upper deck, it can look partly empty on the outside, when it actually isn't.

foggy_lad · 26-09-2012 1:19am

cson wrote: »

While this is a semi-rant; I am interested in any solutions folks would see to the problems -i.e. how to make it a better service during rush hour. An immediate problem that would be easily solved that I can see is actually filling the buses. Two #16s passed me this morning with the driver gesturing to the people at the stop that he was full; he wasn't. What had happened is that everyone standing had congregated at the top of the bus and there was space down the aisle at the back. I don't know why Irish people do this, but I've only come across it here, people stubbornly staying up the front of the bus. In other countries the majority of people will fill the bus from the back up. I always make a point of it as a commuter anyway.

Obviously the easy thing to do is allow myself even more time to get but I do enjoy my sleep!

People are willing to move to the back of the bus only if it is easy for them to get off at their stop, but with no centre doors and other passengers being quite ignorant it can be quite a struggle to get from the back of a packed bus to the front at your stop all the while worrying that the driver is going to just drive off!

This would be the main reason people refuse to move back down the bus away from the door!

Del2005 · 26-09-2012 2:40am

foggy_lad wrote: »

People are willing to move to the back of the bus only if it is easy for them to get off at their stop, but with no centre doors and other passengers being quite ignorant it can be quite a struggle to get from the back of a packed bus to the front at your stop all the while worrying that the driver is going to just drive off!

If only there was some way to inform the driver that you wanted then to stop then this wouldn't be an issue.

foggy_lad wrote: »

This would be the main reason people refuse to move back down the bus away from the door!

It's just laziness.

Mr. Pink · 26-09-2012 3:20am

I live at the beginning of the 41/c/x bus route in swords and multiple times I've sat there for over half an hour waiting for a bus to leave despite being scheduled to leave every ten minutes with three buses sitting at the stop, twice this has happened during rush hour causing me to be late for work so maybe you were left waiting so long for the same reason.

monkeypants · 26-09-2012 8:12am

Up past Swords Manor? The DB timetable and reality vary greatly.

foggy_lad · 26-09-2012 8:19am

Del2005 wrote: »

If only there was some way to inform the driver that you wanted then to stop then this wouldn't be an issue.

It's just laziness.

You ring the bell of course but the driver will only wait a certain amount of time and when he sees nobody struggling to get out in his mirror he will just move on. It can take a few minutes to barge your way to the front of a packed bus!

Laziness? Not at all, just people making sure they don't miss their stop.

AlekSmart · 26-09-2012 9:57am

foggy_lad wrote: »

People are willing to move to the back of the bus only if it is easy for them to get off at their stop, but with no centre doors and other passengers being quite ignorant it can be quite a struggle to get from the back of a packed bus to the front at your stop all the while worrying that the driver is going to just drive off!

This would be the main reason people refuse to move back down the bus away from the door!

Afraid Not Foggy.

Experience,rather than opinion has taught me that the main cause for this significant and largely ignored problem is Selfishness...pure and simple.

This selfishness,when combined with poor vehicle design,facilitates such people who's only focus is upon their own need.

This means that on a crowded Bus/Tram/Train the "Luggage Pen Clamper" will see themselves as the ONLY person on that vehicle....nobody else matters.

I have watched,somewhat bemused as Oul Ladies whom you would be minded to assist across a road,stand blankly staring at a wheelchair bound person attempting to get past them into the Wheelchair Bay.

I have,after TELLING them to move,been subject to significant lectures about being rude and aggressive....:rolleyes:

Asking such persons does NOT work.....The Driver is then left with two options,either ignore the entire situation (The Prefered one) OR Take control of the situation in a clear and fortright manner.....(Tin Hat time).

iDave · 26-09-2012 10:03am

Few things in the world annoy me more than the driver change across from the Rotunda. Lost count of the amount of occasions the driver hasn’t been there and you find yourself sitting there waiting for 15-20 mins waiting to get moving. What is the reason for it, the cynic in me says its laziness and poor time keeping that’s inherent in semi state monopolies but I’m sure the union will find a way to justify it. The question is though, why is a driver change necessary at all. The 11 for example, why can’t the poor dears drive the whole way from Sandyford to Wadelai Park?

Victor · 26-09-2012 11:31am

iDave wrote: »

The 11 for example, why can’t the poor dears drive the whole way from Sandyford to Wadelai Park?

The driver needs to get off the bus at some point to use the toilet, have lunch or go home.

There is little sense in having a bus operate out of service from terminus to depot or for the second driver to ride the bus to the terminus before a shift change.

Shift change at a depot or other premises where breaks can be taken is the solution. The problem is a bus arriving well ahead of schedule or a driver not being there on time.

The_Wrecker · 26-09-2012 11:45am

AlekSmart wrote: »

Afraid Not Foggy.

Experience,rather than opinion has taught me that the main cause for this significant and largely ignored problem is Selfishness...pure and simple.

This selfishness,when combined with poor vehicle design,facilitates such people who's only focus is upon their own need.

This means that on a crowded Bus/Tram/Train the "Luggage Pen Clamper" will see themselves as the ONLY person on that vehicle....nobody else matters.

I have watched,somewhat bemused as Oul Ladies whom you would be minded to assist across a road,stand blankly staring at a wheelchair bound person attempting to get past them into the Wheelchair Bay.

I have,after TELLING them to move,been subject to significant lectures about being rude and aggressive....:rolleyes:

Asking such persons does NOT work.....The Driver is then left with two options,either ignore the entire situation (The Prefered one) OR Take control of the situation in a clear and fortright manner.....(Tin Hat time).

Sadly many take our instruction or negative comments (No) being a comman one as Rude aggressive and is in the wrong job, type of driver.
The other side is ignorant and in the wrong job also!

When stopped i wait for all to leave the bus then study the internal mirror for a late runner. A wave, scream or threat normally gives a signal to me. The mobile phone being the main reason the bus starts moving again as their attention is diverted from the fact the bus has off loaded.

Another head scratcher, why do two passengers stand in the most narrowest aisle section opposite each other and wonder why Forty students are assaulting them to escape? Cork in bottle syndrome....

LXFlyer · 26-09-2012 1:23pm

iDave wrote: »

Few things in the world annoy me more than the driver change across from the Rotunda. Lost count of the amount of occasions the driver hasn’t been there and you find yourself sitting there waiting for 15-20 mins waiting to get moving. What is the reason for it, the cynic in me says its laziness and poor time keeping that’s inherent in semi state monopolies but I’m sure the union will find a way to justify it. The question is though, why is a driver change necessary at all. The 11 for example, why can’t the poor dears drive the whole way from Sandyford to Wadelai Park?

Victor wrote: »

The driver needs to get off the bus at some point to use the toilet, have lunch or go home.

There is little sense in having a bus operate out of service from terminus to depot or for the second driver to ride the bus to the terminus before a shift change.

Shift change at a depot or other premises where breaks can be taken is the solution. The problem is a bus arriving well ahead of schedule or a driver not being there on time.

The "poor dears" as you refer to them more than likely will have done 1.25 round trips when the time comes for a driver change. Taking route 11 as an example, a bus would typically leave Donnybrook depot in the morning, go to Sandyford or Wadelai out of service and then one driver would do at least one full round trip and then into the city before a driver change takes place. The driver change takes place there as that is where the canteen facilities (and indeed the depot in the case of the 16) are. Other routes that directly pass depots do have driver changes outside them.

As Victor says driver changes have to take place where there are facilities for drivers to take their break. Most termini on cross-city routes are not at depots and as such you would end up with costly dead running, both in terms of time and fuel.

Driver rosters are incredibly difficult to generate due to the legal restrictions imposed by the EU Working Time Directive which places strict limits on maximum driver hours. Unfortunately driver changes throughout the day are a necessary evil in any city bus operation. The challenge for the scheduler is, for those driver changes that take place mid-route, to get the estimated running time allowed for the bus to get from the terminus to the handover point 95% accurate. This then avoids unnecessary waiting for passengers at the handover point.

I do also believe like Victor that DB should be looking at options for facilities for drivers to break at locations such as the airport for routes that terminate there which would minimise mid-route delays.

Mr. Pink · 26-09-2012 1:44pm

monkeypants wrote: »

Up past Swords Manor? The DB timetable and reality vary greatly.

Yep, its a total nightmare

SimonTemplar · 26-09-2012 8:38pm

The frequency of the 16 from Ballinteer to the airport via the city was descreased at the beginning of summer. I get the bus every morning from Rathfarnham, which is only a few stops into the route. Up to recently, there wasn't a problem. However, now that the kids have gone back to school, there is not enough buses to meet this school demand, and the bus is often full after just a few stops.

If I'm lucky to get on at Rathfarnham, the bus usually isn't able to pickup any more passengers until it off loads some people in the city center. Usually though, I have to wait for another bus or two.

I think for a bus to be full after only a few stops, and then be unable to pickup passengers for a good 40% of the route is unacceptable. Obvously the increasing numbers of waiting people at the stops has a knock-on effect.

LXFlyer · 26-09-2012 11:51pm

While the overall number of northbound departures on the 16 versus the combined 16/16a departures thoughout the day has fallen from 102 to 80, only 1 of these is during rhe main morning peak period between 0710 and 0830.

What has changed is that the number of departures from Ballinteer has increased from 5 to 11 during that period (reflecting the switch from Nutgrove) which may mean more people are using the bus south of Rathfarnham.

At the same time there are now 9 departures on the 15b between 0710 and 0830 versus 2 on the old 74a, which means that there is a net increase of 6 buses during that period through Rathfarnham.

dublinman1990 · 27-09-2012 10:25pm

A good previous point made by Lxflyer in regards to driver changeovers.

An example of a good mid change points for DB drivers will be outside Clerys in O'Connell Street and near Donnybrook Garage. The drivers I usually see there as very punctual in terms of both drivers arriving on time and swapping shifts in advance of a changeover.

The routes I would see regularly doing a changeover would be the 46A at Donnybrook Garage and the number 11 at O'Connell Street.

A changeover of a more rarer kind happened on Tuesday evening when I got off the 7 at the Montpellier estate near Temple Hill. The bus driver who drove an AX, which I had got off, let the driver behind him with the empty GT take his passengers to continue into the city. The AX driver previously on the 7 than went straight back to Donnybrook.

I have only seen that for about 2% of the time while waiting for & getting on/off a bus at that location.

bk · 28-09-2012 9:55am

Yes the driver change on the 16 around Parnell Square is crazy. Inbound you have a bus full of passengers who are probably only one or two stops from their destination but can be made to wait ages for the driver change. Often resulting in people getting annoyed and getting off the bus to walk the rest of the way.

Similar outbound. Pick up loads of passengers at O'Connell St, only to stop and wait for ages again at Parnell Square.

Can't understand why at least they don't do the changeover at O'Connell st. Stop at OCS, leave most of the passengers off, new passengers on, change driver.

Even better do it out at the airport.

In the UK, I've seen driver changes being done at termini, where the driver goes to and from the termini in a small car. Driver goes from the depot to the termini in the car, changes driver and the driver coming off returns to the depot via the car.

lucernarian · 29-09-2012 4:38pm

The 16 is a very long round trip and the airport has almost no facilities whasoever for DB drivers. Handovers there wouldn't be ideal.

Meanwhile, the city centre has the canteen facilities and also a nearby Summerhill Garage. Dare I say it, the 16 is a route that might work better from being operated out of Harristown rather than Summerhill.

Waiting long times for handovers to take place probably suggests that on occasion, duties are being allocated a little too much time to get from e.g. Ballinteer to Parnell St on a Saturday afternoon.

LXFlyer · 29-09-2012 8:30pm

I think the point is that DB should be trying to arrange for facilities to be provided at locations such as the airport, Blanchardstown SC etc.

senordingdong · 29-09-2012 8:37pm

If their drivers/service were dependent on performance, then there would be an improvement.

howiya · 29-09-2012 9:03pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

The 16 is a very long round trip and the airport has almost no facilities whasoever for DB drivers. Handovers there wouldn't be ideal.

Restaurants, toilets, shops.... what more do drivers want?

bk · 30-09-2012 11:04am

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

The 16 is a very long round trip and the airport has almost no facilities whasoever for DB drivers. Handovers there wouldn't be ideal.

On top of the restaurants, shops, toilets and parking that everyone else can use at Dublin Airport, there is also the canteen used by the taxi drivers at Dublin Airport.

Surely DB could make arrangements with DAA to make use of that canteen and/or other DAA staff facilities?

In fact I can't think of a location with a better range of facilities anywhere else in the city.

It really is embarrassing that one of the busiest routes in the city, often the first experience tourists have of public transport in Dublin, has these issues.

lucernarian · 30-09-2012 11:55am

howiya wrote: »

Restaurants, toilets, shops.... what more do drivers want?

Let's be fair here. If you viewed the city centre in the exact same way then there wouldn't be a need for Earl Place surely? My point was more about the difference in facilities that those with airside clearance passes have compared to those that don't.

Of course there's opportunity for facilities to be developed at the airport for drivers. It's merely an observation of the current situation to say that they don't exist right now. €10 lunches don't really count. I don't think the DAA will be interested in accommodating these facilities without the smell of money behind it. I've also seen an Aircoach driver having a stand-up argument with a member of staff in McDonald's over the price he was being charged for one of the extra value meals, about 2 months ago. It's not just BAC who haven't made special canteen arrangements in the airport. Though in the case of Aircoach, they do have some parking spaces set aside for their staff on the airport grounds.

Rather than looking to give those leeches in the DAA more money for space and canteen facilities, I think BAC should be looking at operating airport services from the garage that actually adjoins the perimeter of the airport instead of Summerhill...

(And yes, there really should be something to cater for drivers in Blanchardstown shopping centre with e.g. the deli counter in Dunnes or lunches in the place that used to be Bewley's or something along those lines)

foggy_lad · 30-09-2012 12:09pm

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Let's be fair here. If you viewed the city centre in the exact same way then there wouldn't be a need for Earl Place surely? My point was more about the difference in facilities that those with airside clearance passes have compared to those that don't.

Of course there's opportunity for facilities to be developed at the airport for drivers. It's merely an observation of the current situation to say that they don't exist right now. €10 lunches don't really count. I don't think the DAA will be interested in accommodating these facilities without the smell of money behind it. I've also seen an Aircoach driver having a stand-up argument with a member of staff in McDonald's over the price he was being charged for one of the extra value meals, about 2 months ago. It's not just BAC who haven't made special canteen arrangements in the airport. Though in the case of Aircoach, they do have some parking spaces set aside for their staff on the airport grounds.

Rather than looking to give those leeches in the DAA more money for space and canteen facilities, I think BAC should be looking at operating airport services from the garage that actually adjoins the perimeter of the airport instead of Summerhill...

(And yes, there really should be something to cater for drivers in Blanchardstown shopping centre with e.g. the deli counter in Dunnes or lunches in the place that used to be Bewley's or something along those lines)

Why should Dublin bus drivers get a subsidised lunch in dunnes or the McDonald's at the airport? Do all workers in dublin get the same perks paid for out of subvention? What makes Dublin bus workers so special?

mikemac1 · 30-09-2012 12:15pm

Has anyone mentioned cash fares or is that off topic?

The dwell time, I think thats the term at busy stops is aaaaaaages

What's with the 1.90, sure round it to an even 2 euro

Or even 3 euro if they want to discourage but market their pre-paid options even harder. Carrot & stick

I remember Labour party talking about flat euro and two euro fares a few years back when they were in opposition

Now Alan Kelly is the junior minister so could do it but nothing done

bk · 30-09-2012 12:17pm

FYI there are staff facilities landside at Dublin Airport. Lots of staff at the airport don't have airside clearance and have to be looked after too.

But you are correct, didn't realise there is a depot close to Dublin Airport. If that is the case then it is absolutely crazy that the 16 is operated out of there and that driver change overs aren't done there. No excuse for it at all so.

Yes this should also be looked at for other routes too, e.g. Blanchardstown, etc.

Mike agree completely re cash fares. Set the cash fare at a fixed €3 for everyone, child, adult, etc. But leave the leap fares as is. Also leap should be changed to a tag on/tag off system. Perhpas with tag-on only set to a travel 90. Would help greatly with dwell times.

lucernarian · 30-09-2012 12:21pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why should Dublin bus drivers get a subsidised lunch in dunnes or the McDonald's at the airport? Do all workers in dublin get the same perks paid for out of subvention? What makes Dublin bus workers so special?

That's quite a different conversation and more related to the general treatment of workers and the way in which most large companies provide discounted food to their staff as a perk of the job or for other reasons.

As it stands though, there are other shops and termini around dublin where DB staff do enjoy discounts, particularly for coffee from what I've been told. I strongly suspect that drivers would not want changes that involve spending more on food at lunch compared to the status quo. I guess if there wasn't any special discount provided in other locations, those drivers who happened to work and handover near places offering cheap food would be advantaged over other drivers who didn't have it and that could lead to all sorts of industrial relations shenanigans.

markpb · 30-09-2012 2:17pm

bk wrote: »

didn't realise there is a depot close to Dublin Airport. If that is the case then it is absolutely crazy that the 16 is operated out of there and that driver change overs aren't done there. No excuse for it at all so.

If you mean Harristown, I wouldn't call it close to the airport. It's close to the west end of the runway but its a long drive from there to the coach park. Facilitiess for the drivers in the airport would be much better if they were available.

LordSutch · 30-09-2012 8:15pm

cson wrote: »

Two #16s passed me this morning with the driver gesturing to the people at the stop that he was full; he wasn't. What had happened is that everyone standing had congregated at the top of the bus and there was space down the aisle at the back. I don't know why Irish people do this, but I've only come across it here, people stubbornly staying up the front of the bus. In other countries the majority of people will fill the bus from the back up. I always make a point of it as a commuter anyway.

I guess people congregate round the front doors because they are also the Exit doors, stay close to get off quick?
Middle doors used as an Exit would ease this problem on DB.

Dublin Bus and Rush Hour

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