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Politics Café.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    .

    I've never started a political thread on AH. Again, as has previously been explained, the nature of threads on any topic in AH is unique. This policy has eliminated a unique form of discussion from the site.

    However, judging by the thanks your post garnered I take it that the answer to the third point below is "yes":
    Is the intention to persist with the movement of AH threads deemed political to the Politics Cafe?
    If yes, is there a set time when that decision will be revisited?
    Or is it a case that the policy is decided and set in stone and will not be changed back?

    As I said, the site has the right to eliminate a type of discussion from the site due to Admin / Mod preference. As always, it would be respectful to flat out say that is the intention however, rather than pretending otherwise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    This policy has eliminated a unique form of discussion from the site.
    But it hasn't; it has simply categorised it in the correct forum.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    But it hasn't; it has simply categorised it in the correct forum.

    You are wrong though and I think you all know this. Due to this 'correct categorisation' the content has disappeared off the site. Discussion that used to take place no longer does.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    You are wrong though and I think you all know this. Due to this 'correct categorisation' the content has disappeared off the site. Discussion that used to take place no longer does.
    It's in the politics forum though. Unless you're arguing that the only forum on the site is After Hours?


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    It's in the politics forum though. Unless you're arguing that the only forum on the site is After Hours?

    Yes threads that were once in AH are now in Politics Café:
    As I type this, the forum has recieved 37 posts since Saturday afternoon. Slow.
    70 posts since I posted this, 69 of them in one thread (a lively thread tbf).

    107 posts received there in total over a 100 hour period - i.e. the volume and variety of contributions certain threads would once have received while resident in AH has been eliminated from the website.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Yes threads that were once in AH are now in Politics Café:





    107 posts received there in total over a 100 hour period - i.e. the volume and variety of contributions certain threads would once have received while resident in AH has been eliminated from the website.
    There is a thread in PC which was moved today - the amount of nonsense garbage posted in there is amazing. You're saying you value quantity over quality. The thread asks a relatively serious (but wholly biased and one-sided) question. Before it was moved, these were some of the choice responses:
    Facking Cants
    Rule Britannia.
    Perhaps it's a new moaning tax?
    risteard7 wrote: »
    I like Britain now
    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Innit?

    According to you, THIS is what boards.ie is and stands for; all other content on the site is meaningless and worthless. This is what you're arguing for?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,645 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    There is a thread in PC which was moved today - the amount of nonsense garbage posted in there is amazing...
    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Innit?

    ...According to you, THIS is what boards.ie is and stands for; all other content on the site is meaningless and worthless. This is what you're arguing for?
    Hey!


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Yes threads that were once in AH are now in Politics Café:





    107 posts received there in total over a 100 hour period - i.e. the volume and variety of contributions certain threads would once have received while resident in AH has been eliminated from the website.

    Threads are often moved on (think that may have been following feedback on this very thread), the big example the Adams thread, probably 107 posts every few hours on that!

    If I can find a suitable home for it that will attract more users I'll move it.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    El Weirdo wrote: »
    Hey!
    If the shoe fits... :D


    Look, I'm not saying that there isn't a time and a place for AH and its content, but the argument that AH should be the driver and main focus of boards.ie as a brand/company is (1) ridiculous and (2) not our decision.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    According to you, THIS is what boards.ie is and stands for; all other content on the site is meaningless and worthless. This is what you're arguing for?

    Don't try to put words in my mouth sir, and try to refrain from using strawman arguments, good lad. There is no doubt that AH posts garner more quantity and consequently lower average quality posts. That has never been in dispute. However, amongst that increase in quantity is unique conversation - political opinions from a much broader spectrum than any speciality Politics forum will ever garner.

    In anycase, our differing opinions on the quality of particular strands of discussion don't mean a great deal. Facts are that there used to be discussion that took place in AH that no longer takes place on the site due to the recent change in AH policy.

    If an Admin or Mod wants to come in and clarify that was a deliberate intention because of their opinion on the quality of that type of discussion and they won't be changing the policy back or reviewing it that is 100% okay by me.

    Pretending that there is no difference since the policy was applied is simply false, and talking about the Politics Café becoming hugely popular in the future is folly.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    If the shoe fits... :D


    Look, I'm not saying that there isn't a time and a place for AH and its content, but the argument that AH should be the driver and main focus of boards.ie as a brand/company is (1) ridiculous and (2) not our decision.

    Quote where that argument was put forth please.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Don't try to put words in my mouth sir, and try to refrain from using strawman arguments, good lad.
    I'm nobody's "good lad" first of all. Secondly, how exactly is it a straw man? You said "the volume and variety of contributions certain threads would once have received while resident in AH has been eliminated from the website."

    To which I replied with examples of the "volume and variety" of content we are so sorely missing out on. I refer you back to those shining examples of your "volume and variety of contributions"

    There is no doubt that AH posts garner more quantity and consequently lower average quality posts. That has never been in dispute. However, amongst that increase in quantity is unique conversation - political opinions from a much broader spectrum than any speciality Politics forum will ever garner.
    This would make sense if posts were just shuffled off in the dark with no redirect. When you click on the link in AH, you are taken to Politics where you are reminded the local charter applies - therefore the volume is still present, but the "lower average quality posts" are removed.

    Why should we have to filter through 10 dumb posts to get 2 good ones?

    In anycase, our differing opinions on the quality of particular strands of discussion don't mean a great deal. Facts are that there used to be discussion that took place in AH that no longer takes place on the site due to the recent change in AH policy.
    But you have yet to explain why this conversation should take place in AH at all or why AH posters who have contributions to make to a valid discussion are averse to posting outside of AH.

    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Quote where that argument was put forth please.
    Your argument in this thread on multiple occasions has been that content has "disappeared" from the site as a result of not being in AH. It appears to also be that the "site" (and it's a phrase you have used multiple times) is suffering the "volume and variety" of content by not having content in AH.

    I can only take that as your indication that you believe AH to be the driver of site content.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    AH's massive userbase; its quick moving nature; its diversity; and its informal nature make it great imo. What you can do about this I have no idea, but moving a topic to a dedicated forum doesn't interest me. It isn't the topic that attracts me to AH, it's the unique nature of discussion on the topic once it is within AH that I like.
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    I wouldn't personally. That's not a slight on the effort you're putting in here (par for the course for yourself!) to take on board feedback and tailor it to a 'politics light' audience. It's just that I know the random AH horde won't follow the link.

    This really is a case of appreciating the nature of an AH conversation. If I want to discuss a subject seriously and engage in a rigorous debate it isn't where I'd go. But it's always fascinating to compare and contrast that serious conversation with a few pages of AH on the same subject.

    I used to dislike AH for all the reasons I appreciate it now. It's a one of a kind resource that provides a window into various throwaway and half baked Irish perceptions on the happenings of the day. You are doing a great job attempting to take feedback on board here, genuinely, but you can't offset the reality that once an AH thread is redirected elsewhere it becomes a very different animal.

    If it was technically possible to categorise AH threads so that they appear in two places at once - i.e. in AH and economics for example - with no overt warnings or change in the appearance of the thread you might be onto something. Mix the AH horde with the topic specialists. There would be governance issues there and an abrupt clash of perspectives, but the specialists would know that they can click out from the large strange thread to discuss the topic more stringently in their 'home' thread. This would have the dual affect of keeping AH what it is while redistributing that footfall across the site.

    My first two posts in this thread.

    You are entitled to your opinion that discussions in AH lack merit, you wouldn't be the first to hold such an opinion.
    This would make sense if posts were just shuffled off in the dark with no redirect. When you click on the link in AH, you are taken to Politics where you are reminded the local charter applies - therefore the volume is still present, but the "lower average quality posts" are removed.

    Why should we have to filter through 10 dumb posts to get 2 good ones?

    I get tired of repeating myself but, for whatever reason, it is not in dispute that people are not following that link:

    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    While this debate continues, every thread that is moved to politics cafe runs to an almost immediate dead stop.

    I was strongly against the decision to remove politics threads from AH as I used to contribute to and enjoy such content. Now it simply doesn't exist.

    I say reverse the change until you can think of something that works.
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    As I type this, the forum has recieved 37 posts since Saturday afternoon. Slow.
    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    70 posts since I posted this, 69 of them in one thread (a lively thread tbf).

    I don't need to explain why that is the case - i.e. why they are averse to moving outside AH. I am simply informing you that it is a reality and it would be better if people stopped pretending it wasn't. Simply put, if you rule a topic out of bounds in AH you lose the unique nature of AH discussion on a given topic - it doesn't replicate outside of AH.
    Your argument in this thread on multiple occasions has been that content has "disappeared" from the site as a result of not being in AH. It appears to also be that the "site" (and it's a phrase you have used multiple times) is suffering the "volume and variety" of content by not having content in AH.

    I can only take that as your indication that you believe AH to be the driver of site content.

    It's not an 'argument' so much as an observable fact. I'll be kind and say that you've reached an incorrect assumption and may refer again to my initial posts in this thread as an indicator of my general position on AH within the website as a whole. I've never said AH is or should be a 'driver' of site content. It is however a unique corner of the site and offers a different posting experience to speciality forums.

    Again, I accept that the site has a problem in regards to AH sucking in posting and posters across the site. However, just moving topics out of AH is not the way to redress it.


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,780 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Again, I accept that the site has a problem in regards to AH sucking in posting and posters across the site. However, just moving topics out of AH is not the way to redress it.

    What is?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Buona Fortuna


    Black Swan wrote: »
    Brilliant! Thank you both for suggesting this possible solution. As a result of your Feedback thread, the politics mods are chatting about this now. As a quick and wonderfully "lazy" solution to increasing member awareness and participation, could Politics Café have an obvious link in AH? We have other forums with links between categories like this. Then it would not make any difference if the Politics Café first appeared under AH or Politics, because it would appear simultaneously under both.

    What do the AH mods/Cmods think? Good idea or not? It might reduce the number of threads transferred in the future?

    We now have that link, but the detailed bit is blank, last post, number of ....

    Not sure if thats just on my pc, but if these items were populated, the last post could serve as teaser to get people to take a look.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    What is?

    I have no idea though I would suggest a radical reshaping of user behaviour and preference probably requires a radical solution. Simply saying 'we've recategorised discussion, please proceed to the correct forum' and walking away ain't going to work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭ Brenda Handsome Pink


    The aigu on café is missing in the AH link... >.>


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭Ruu


    The é was causing havoc with mod controls so had to be removed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,571 ✭✭✭ Brenda Handsome Pink


    Ruu wrote: »
    The é was causing havoc with mod controls so had to be removed.

    Ha, really? :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,507 ✭✭✭Buona Fortuna


    Ruu wrote: »
    The é was causing havoc with mod controls so had to be removed.

    Alt 130 :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,622 ✭✭✭Ruu


    Ha, really? :pac:

    no joke, code chucked a wobbler when it was added I believe. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    i'd just like to point out the obvious dual standards (again?) going on too. All are 1st page, busy threads...

    Here's a thread about bus fares
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057316670&page=2
    why is that not insta-bumped to C&T

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057316837
    Ring of kerry thread -> tourism or Kerry fora

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057249879
    Irish water -> infrastructure (if not politics)

    Why are political threads so zealously picked up upon in comparison to others? Especially when PC is easily the quietest of the alternative forums most thread are likely to end up in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    i'd just like to point out the obvious dual standards (again?) going on too. All are 1st page, busy threads...

    Here's a thread about bus fares
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057316670&page=2
    why is that not insta-bumped to C&T

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057316837
    Ring of kerry thread -> tourism or Kerry fora

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057249879
    Irish water -> infrastructure (if not politics)

    Why are political threads so zealously picked up upon in comparison to others? Especially when PC is easily the quietest of the alternative forums most thread are likely to end up in.

    Because of the preferences of the current AH mod team.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44,080 ✭✭✭✭Micky Dolenz


    They are singular examples. If they took up half the front page and people were complaining then there would be an issue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,023 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    They are singular examples. If they took up half the front page and people were complaining then there would be an issue.

    How many people need to complain?
    What ratio of complaining posts : posts on topics being complained about need to apply roughly before a topic is moved out of AH?
    Once a topic is moved out, what criteria would need to apply for the decision to be revisited?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,462 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    They are singular examples. If they took up half the front page and people were complaining then there would be an issue.

    so if I reported the bus fare one it would be acted upon or does it need lots of reports? picking this one in particular as it is the most obvious one that should be moved, very specific to the C&T forum after all...

    I guess i just don't understand why even only the most vaguely political one gets moved but very specific topics relating to other fields tend not to. If it was only very specifically political threads being moved, while the more general ones stayed it would make more sense.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    so if I reported the bus fare one it would be acted upon or does it need lots of reports? picking this one in particular as it is the most obvious one that should be moved, very specific to the C&T forum after all...

    I guess i just don't understand why even only the most vaguely political one gets moved but very specific topics relating to other fields tend not to. If it was only very specifically political threads being moved, while the more general ones stayed it would make more sense.

    Because you get a lot of political and quasi-political ones, so you wind up with a general policy of moving them, because AH isn't supposed to be about that.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,537 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    When you are in m.boards.ie and click on the After Hours link to the Politics cafe it changes to the main site version.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Just as a point of order (and apologies if already discussed) but there was talk of PC being a sub forum of AH being an option on the table - I presume this would mean users banned from AH would also be then banned from PC?


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