Mahon Tribunal report

Trampas · 22-03-2012 10:02pm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0322/ahernb.html

full statement

Sierra Oscar · 22-03-2012 10:15pm

Mr.Micro wrote: »

The bold brazen Bertie turned up at the FF Ard Fheis a few weeks ago, knowing full well, IMO, what the report about him contained. He was welcomed by many, I do believe, with open arms.

Bertie Ahern was not welcomed with open arms at the Ard Fheis. He was very much isolated when he showed up for an hour or so, and I would imagine he sensed the writing on the wall in regards his future in the party.

later12 · 22-03-2012 10:15pm

Quote from Bertie Ahern's statement

I hid nothing.

This may be true. However he certainly attempted to conceal something in that he unsuccessfully attempted to block the Tribunal from looking into any transactions with values less than IR£30,000.

If he had succeeded in doing this, Mahon would have had very little to say, or examine, in relation to Bertie Ahern's finances and allegations of political corruption. That would have been a scandalous outcome given what we now know. In that context, "I hid nothing" is a little disingenuous.

On the larger issue of the Mahon report, I haven't read the whole thing yet. I have read its recommendations (probably the most under-reported aspect of the report relative to its relevance) and they are sorely disappointing. Maybe they deserve a thread of their own.

As for Fianna Fail, this is a wonderful day for the party. It represents, to my mind, the final credits for the motion-picture-like era that has been the Bertie Era. The party could never really move on from the 2011 election because this was constantly hanging overhead. After the party considers Mahon and issues its rejection of the behaviour of Ahern, Flynn, Lawlor, Wright, Reynolds et al., I think the party will be glad to assess itself, and finally move away from the shadow of the politically ugliest period in its history.

timesnap · 22-03-2012 10:39pm

So it is official Bertie Flynn and three CC's names will be put to the executive for expulsion next week.what an end to Bertie's career.
MM had to do it,still way too little,way to late for FF though.
Dev must be turning in his grave.

transylman · 22-03-2012 10:49pm

timesnap wrote: »

So it is official Bertie Flynn and three CC's names will be put to the executive for expulsion next week.what an end to Bertie's career.
MM had to do it,still way too little,way to late for FF though.
Dev must be turning in his grave.

Dev who took donations intended for the state and used them to set up a partisan newspaper? That Dev?

Laminations · 22-03-2012 10:52pm

later12 wrote: »

As for Fianna Fail, this is a wonderful day for the party. It represents, to my mind, the final credits for the motion-picture-like era that has been the Bertie Era. The party could never really move on from the 2011 election because this was constantly hanging overhead. After the party considers Mahon and issues its rejection of the behaviour of Ahern, Flynn, Lawlor, Wright, Reynolds et al., I think the party will be glad to assess itself, and finally move away from the shadow of the politically ugliest period in its history.

Nice try. You might try and draw a convenient line in the hierarchy of FF but these people all support this person who supported (see quotes in previous link) this guy.

FF is a ponzi scheme of dishonesty and sh1tehawkness. It doesn't all stop by outing Bertie now and pretending that FF didn't support him during the tribunal. The stench goes right to the grassroots members who should be ashamed.

Sir Oxman · 22-03-2012 10:54pm

If these were little people of no significance, the full weight of this State would be brought to bear on them.

Einhard · 22-03-2012 11:06pm

Villain wrote: »

The thing that annoys me is that it was obvious from the Tribunals sittings that Bertie was lying before he won the 2007 election and again obvious when McDowell kept him in Government, it's just been confirmed now.

I mean take the Dollar transaction alone, no one could have believed it wasn't Dollar's based on the facts that were presented. McDowell's reputation might be a little lower afte today.

McDowell played a relatively minor part compared to the electorate when it came to keeping Bertie in power, and rewarding FF for their corruption.

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Fifteen years and a quarter of a billion euro to find out something the dogs in the street already knew

The same dogs in the street who knew about this corruption were queuing up to vote Bertie et al back into power election after election after election. Mahon could quite easily have indicted the Irish people for their faciliation of this type of abuse. The electorate had it within their means to punish FF and send a message about the type of behaviour that wouldn't be tolerated; instead, they condoned corruption and rewarded the corrupted.

Sir Oxman · 22-03-2012 11:09pm

Einhard wrote: »

McDowell played a relatively minor part compared to the electorate when it came to keeping Bertie in power, and rewarding FF for their corruption.

The same dogs in the street who knew about this corruption were queuing up to vote Bertie et al back into power election after election after election. Mahon could quite easily have indicted the Irish people for their faciliation of this type of abuse. The electorate had it within their means to punish FF and send a message about the type of behaviour that wouldn't be tolerated; instead, they condoned corruption and rewarded the corrupted.

There is no getting away from this^
Another fact being the Greens also knew and facilitated the return of him and his party to power in 2007.
Shame on the 42% and shame on the Greens.

steelcityblues · 22-03-2012 11:09pm

Calleary talking about banning Ahern and a few others from association with FF, as if small token measures makes up for everything.

timesnap · 22-03-2012 11:11pm

transylman wrote: »

Dev who took donations intended for the state and used them to set up a partisan newspaper? That Dev?

Yes that Dev!
matter of fact many of those 'bonds' he collected in America have never been accounted for......... may'be they will be found some day and help us out.
doubt it though

charlemont · 22-03-2012 11:11pm

Justice will only be served on these guys when their cronies in all the government bodies and justice system are weeded out.

timesnap · 22-03-2012 11:23pm

Kidding aside today was a day of shame,it must be almost as devastating to many who stood by Bertie as how Americans felt when Nixon finally stepped down, a much smaller scale i know but i am in the pitts at todays unfolding events.:(
it was worse than even the biggist cynic expected i think.

ascanbe · 22-03-2012 11:30pm

So, now that our politicians are registering their 'shock' and 'indignation' after these 'revelations', surely this will result in them steadfastly ensuring that there is a proper investigation, not a tribunal, into what occurred in our banks and into the relationship between certain politicians/civil servants and these banks.
You'd think that might be important, given that the fall-out from all that makes what was covered in this report look like small-fry/a foot-note in the history of corruption that ultimately led to, perhaps, even greater instances of such corruption and our current tragic situation.
At the moment, you could be forgiven for thinking that they have absolutely no interest in doing so.

K-9 · 22-03-2012 11:48pm

transylman wrote: »

Dev who took donations intended for the state and used them to set up a partisan newspaper? That Dev?

Lemass, Colley, Lynch, Aitken and Hillery would have been better examples but tbh mentioning figures from 30 or 40 years or more kind of sums up where the party is. The root of this problem goes back to the 60's, but to the election of Haughey in the the late 70's as leader in particular, after being expelled from FF, defeating George Colley in the process. The "boy who made good" became part of the ethos of FF, reflected in Haughey, Reynolds and Bertie and I'd say, that got reflected in the Irish economy, the property bubble a perfect example.

Kenny and Denis O'Brien and it seems Rabbite's failure to see anything wrong with their recent associations doesn't give me any confidence that this lot are that spectacularly different.

Mr.Micro · 22-03-2012 11:54pm

K-9 wrote: »

Kenny and Denis O'Brien and it seems Rabbite's failure to see anything wrong with their recent associations doesn't give me any confidence that this lot are that spectacularly different.

Probably not. There is a corrupt culture in Irish politics IMO, and because FF were in power for much of the past it is that party that is mostly associated with corruption. It has not gone away and we will find that corruption has not been idle for the last 15 years either.

Sir Oxman · 23-03-2012 12:00am

K-9 wrote: »

Lemass, Colley, Lynch, Aitken and Hillery would have been better examples but tbh mentioning figures from 30 or 40 years or more kind of sums up where the party is. The root of this problem goes back to the 60's, but to the election of Haughey in the the late 70's as leader in particular, after being expelled from FF, defeating George Colley in the process. The "boy who made good" became part of the ethos of FF, reflected in Haughey, Reynolds and Bertie and I'd say, that got reflected in the Irish economy, the property bubble a perfect example.

Kenny and Denis O'Brien and it seems Rabbite's failure to see anything wrong with their recent associations doesn't give me any confidence that this lot are that spectacularly different.

It's quite extraordinary.
That particular part ended up with Rabbitte saying whatever about Kenny's defects, he's an honest man.

Well, keep away from O Brien then - lead by example!

jank · 23-03-2012 5:23am

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Indeed, and that does not make it any more acceptable in the slightest.

.

Are you and the wider FF parliamentary party going to demand the resignation of those members of the cabinet who sought to underime the tribunal in an effort to collapse it?

Villain · 23-03-2012 9:20am

Einhard wrote: »

McDowell played a relatively minor part compared to the electorate when it came to keeping Bertie in power, and rewarding FF for their corruption.

Hold on a minute, the ordinary voter was prevented from been told that Bertie was not telling the truth at the Tribunal, the media and even popular sites such as this one weren't willing to allow people to state what the evidence clearly showed.

Now I'm sure you are aware of McDowell's legal credentials giving his legal knowledge I find it amazing that he couldn't read the transcripts and see that the evidence clearly showed that what Bertie said COULDN'T be true, take the Dollar transaction as the easiest one. It was clear he wasn't telling the truth however because of his position McDowell and others were afraid to say what the evidence clearly showed.

Padraig Mor · 23-03-2012 10:05am

Villain wrote: »

Hold on a minute, the ordinary voter was prevented from been told that Bertie was not telling the truth at the Tribunal, the media and even popular sites such as this one weren't willing to allow people to state what the evidence clearly showed.

Come off it. Every Tom Dick and Harry knew he was lying and his evidence was treated with derision at the time. The sad fact is that the majority of Irish people are quite accepting of corruption and would happily do the same themselves - hence voting for Bertie, who many still likely quietly admire. The Irish people got the politicians they deserved.

Villain · 23-03-2012 10:07am

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Come off it. Every Tom Dick and Harry knew he was lying and his evidence was treated with derision at the time. The sad fact is that the majority of Irish people are quite accepting of corruption and would happily do the same themselves - hence voting for Bertie, who many still likely quietly admire. The Irish people got the politicians they deserved.

I disagree I think a lot of people fell for Bertie's tears in his interview with Dobbo and believed him.

23-03-2012 11:14am

Villain wrote: »

I disagree I think a lot of people fell for Bertie's tears in his interview with Dobbo and believed him.

Worse fools them. They are the same kind of idiots i saw on the 6 O'Clock news yesterday evening on Main Street, Castlebar defending Padraig Flynn because he "did a lot for the area" and "got the ring road built". Bertie is, and always was a liar, and although we finally have €300 million worth of proof from it, we didn't need the Mahon report to tell us that. Anyone who sat in the tribunal gallery and heard a single day of his shambolic testimony would have seen it as plainly as day, but even his explanations on his financial dealings to the media, who were far less exhaustive, were farcical.

A serving minister of finance of an EU country who dealt in cash and didn't have a bank account? Whip arounds? Good days at the races??

Come on. Please.

I have always viewed these accepting, apathetic idiots as complicit in the mess we are in. Corruption only takes one corrupt individual to carry out, but a culture of corruption like the tribunal has finally and unequivocally exposed takes the complicity of many, including people like these in the general public. If corruption is to be wiped out in Ireland it has not only to be done in public office, but in the mindset of people like these who continue to support it, either out of apathy or out of their own shallow self interest for getting a ring road built, or a political favour done for a single vote, or whatever.

This report is the last catalyst for change we will ever get in this country, because if the system we have at the moment survives it it will know it is untouchable. We MUST let our politicians of EVERY party know we want change.

Villain · 23-03-2012 11:22am

Deleted User wrote: »

Worse fools them. They are the same kind of idiots i saw on the 6 O'Clock news yesterday evening on Main Street, Castlebar defending Padraig Flynn because he "did a lot for the area" and "got the ring road built". Bertie is, and always was a liar, and although we finally have €300 million worth of proof from it, we didn't need the Mahon report to tell us that. Anyone who sat in the tribunal gallery and heard a single day of his shambolic testimony would have seen it as plainly as day, but even his explanations on his financial dealings to the media, who were far less exhaustive, were farcical.

A serving minister of finance of an EU country who dealt in cash and didn't have a bank account? Whip arounds? Good days at the races??

Come on. Please.

I have always viewed these accepting, apathetic idiots as complicit in the mess we are in. Corruption only takes one corrupt individual to carry out, but a culture of corruption like the tribunal has finally and unequivocally exposed takes the complicity of many, including people like these in the general public. If corruption is to be wiped out in Ireland it has not only to be done in public office, but in the mindset of people like these who continue to support it, either out of apathy or out of their own shallow self interest for getting a ring road built, or a political favour done for a single vote, or whatever.

This report is the last catalyst for change we will ever get in this country, because if the system we have at the moment survives it it will know it is untouchable. We MUST let our politicians of EVERY party know we want change.

Oh I couldn't agree more but the fact is that interview worked on a lot of people, my main issue now is the fact that the media and other politicians at the time weren't willing to stand up and say that he wasn't telling the truth.

The evidence was clear and showed over and over that Bertie wasn't telling the truth yet he was allowed to become the Leader of our Government again.

Cardinal Richelieu · 23-03-2012 11:23am

K-9 wrote: »

Lemass, Colley, Lynch, Aitken and Hillery would have been better examples but tbh mentioning figures from 30 or 40 years or more kind of sums up where the party is. The root of this problem goes back to the 60's, but to the election of Haughey in the the late 70's as leader in particular, after being expelled from FF, defeating George Colley in the process. The "boy who made good" became part of the ethos of FF, reflected in Haughey, Reynolds and Bertie and I'd say, that got reflected in the Irish economy, the property bubble a perfect example.

Kenny and Denis O'Brien and it seems Rabbite's failure to see anything wrong with their recent associations doesn't give me any confidence that this lot are that spectacularly different.

Haughey most likely turned a secret party slush fund system that existed under Lemass and Dev into a personnel money making system. Part of the indignation from FF supporters is not that the tarnished FF politicians raised money for the party by selling votes and support but that they pocketed most of the money themselves.

JustinDee · 23-03-2012 11:35am

Deleted User wrote: »

A serving minister of finance of an EU country who dealt in cash and didn't have a bank account? Whip arounds? Good days at the races??

Come on. Please

"A good day at the races" was John Gilligan's defence too and thats not where the similarities end either.

23-03-2012 11:55am

JustinDee wrote: »

"A good day at the races" was John Gilligan's defence too and thats not where the similarities end either.

I'm not sure who's the bigger crook......

jmayo · 23-03-2012 1:48pm

timesnap wrote: »

The power of the darkside,are you trying to stir it or should that ridiculous statement not have been placed in another forum?
the reason i did not want them to drop to 20 seats was for fear that we would end up with another one party state,just like it was under FF.

Ahh why not try and increase the Labour vote, or another party, instead if you want a non one party state ?

timesnap wrote: »

It has EVERYTHING to do with who selects judges,those who sat on the board of fas,which party has enough councilors to rezone land for builders greed..... list is endless.

And what about who voted in the people that place those people ?
If you don't remove dodgy politicans then you will never solve the problems.

timesnap wrote: »

If you bothered your arse to read back you will notice i am talking about my family tree and its history of voting FF due to both FF&FG being born from civil war politics,it just so happens my ancestors came down on the Anti-treaty side.
what age do you think i am?,i am getting a bit pissed at the way some people seem to have carte-blanch to be rude on the politics forum whilst others are having their posts deleted on their 5th post.

And I am getting pi**ed at ex ffers now being indignant and claiming they were fooled.

timesnap wrote: »

How clever of you there but you do know that CJ never actually said that as it often quoted,it was an urban legend that grew from a much less colorful quote from Haughy.

Sorry I bow to your superior knowledge on ff leaders of ill repute.

timesnap wrote: »

Around here? what does that mean exactly, a clique who post on the politics forum and like only the posts they agree with or thank the mods they fear will infract them.?

I am probably the least likely to be thanking mods and most likely infracted for my views.
In fact I am off to Politics.ie now.

timesnap wrote: »

grow up or grow down whichever applies to you.

Did i mention that i have no time for people who make their points by using the :rolleyes: smiley?

Did I mention I have no time for ffers or ex ffers whose support of that party has doomed this country for generations.

later12 wrote: »

...
As for Fianna Fail, this is a wonderful day for the party. It represents, to my mind, the final credits for the motion-picture-like era that has been the Bertie Era. The party could never really move on from the 2011 election because this was constantly hanging overhead.
After the party considers Mahon and issues its rejection of the behaviour of Ahern, Flynn, Lawlor, Wright, Reynolds et al., I think the party will be glad to assess itself, and finally move away from the shadow of the politically ugliest period in its history.

You might think or hope that ff can move on from this whole era, but the rest of us can't and won't that easily.
We will be paying for the bertie era and what you label as the ugliest period in the party's history for generations.

If you are a member then leave, join another party or start one from scratch but don't give some bullsh** about starting afresh when you have at the top table the ones that supported and backed for years the same one you now are conveniently jettisioning.

timesnap wrote: »

Kidding aside today was a day of shame,it must be almost as devastating to many who stood by Bertie as how Americans felt when Nixon finally stepped down, a much smaller scale i know but i am in the pitts at todays unfolding events.:(

The rest of us, non ff suporters, have been in the pitts for years watching as a long line of ff dodgy characters used this country as their private plaything to feather their own and their supporters' nests.

timesnap wrote: »

it was worse than even the biggist cynic expected i think.

Why do you see it in negative terms ?
Most of us see it as positive that corruption, unethical dealings and lying was outed at last.

JustinDee wrote: »

"A good day at the races" was John Gilligan's defence too and thats not where the similarities end either.

I expect CAB to be rifling through the business and personal affairs of a few politicans with the same zeal they showed when after gilligan. :rolleyes:

timesnap · 23-03-2012 3:19pm

jmayo wrote: »

Ahh why not try and increase the Labour vote, or another party, instead if you want a non one party state ?

And what about who voted in the people that place those people ?
If you don't remove dodgy politicans then you will never solve the problems.

And I am getting pi**ed at ex ffers now being indignant and claiming they were fooled.

Sorry I bow to your superior knowledge on ff leaders of ill repute.

I am probably the least likely to be thanking mods and most likely infracted for my views.
In fact I am off to Politics.ie now.

Did I mention I have no time for ffers or ex ffers whose support of that party has doomed this country for generations.

You might think or hope that ff can move on from this whole era, but the rest of us can't and won't that easily.
We will be paying for the bertie era and what you label as the ugliest period in the party's history for generations.

If you are a member then leave, join another party or start one from scratch but don't give some bullsh** about starting afresh when you have at the top table the ones that supported and backed for years the same one you now are conveniently jettisioning.

The rest of us, non ff suporters, have been in the pitts for years watching as a long line of ff dodgy characters used this country as their private plaything to feather their own and their supporters' nests.

Why do you see it in negative terms ?
Most of us see it as positive that corruption, unethical dealings and lying was outed at last.

I expect CAB to be rifling through the business and personal affairs of a few politicans with the same zeal they showed when after gilligan. :rolleyes:

You just refuse to read from my first post onwards on this thread don't you?
I was barely out of nappies when this tribunal was set up.
I despise FF,i despise how they brought us to our knees,i also agree that the current shower will only be less corrupt because they know they will have to be.
when i said 'A pox on all their houses' it is because i am disillusioned beyond belief and if there was a way to start from scratch it would be the best solution for us.
i was the first to say here yesterday that the only shred of dignity they could muster now would be to disband.

thecommietommy · 23-03-2012 3:27pm

Former Fianna Fáil minister Padraig Flynn has rejected the findings of the Mahon tribunal which branded him corrupt. "During my lifetime of involvement in politics I have never sought nor have I ever received a corrupt payment," Mr Flynn said in a brief statement today. "I absolutely reject any such finding of this tribunal in that regard."

Read more: http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakin...#ixzz1pwvyEvgN

Einhard · 23-03-2012 4:05pm

Villain wrote: »

Hold on a minute, the ordinary voter was prevented from been told that Bertie was not telling the truth at the Tribunal, the media and even popular sites such as this one weren't willing to allow people to state what the evidence clearly showed.

Now I'm sure you are aware of McDowell's legal credentials giving his legal knowledge I find it amazing that he couldn't read the transcripts and see that the evidence clearly showed that what Bertie said COULDN'T be true, take the Dollar transaction as the easiest one. It was clear he wasn't telling the truth however because of his position McDowell and others were afraid to say what the evidence clearly showed.

It wasn't just Bertie though. People were well aware that there was something iffy about Haughey's lordly pretensions and lavish lifestyle; the people of Tipperary continue to support Lowry even after another tribunal has found against him; the people of Mayo continue to stand behind the Flynns, even though father and daughter have been shown to be compromises. The Irish people clamour for accountability and retribution, and yet they continue to vote for those fumbling in the greasy till.

Villain wrote: »

I disagree I think a lot of people fell for Bertie's tears in his interview with Dobbo and believed him.

And did they fall for Lowry's tears, or Lawlor's, or Haughey's?

Mahon Tribunal report

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