When does work banter become inappropriate?

LegacyUser · 20-10-2011 11:38pm #1

I work in a large company, with several managers and almost 100 employees. We work in different sections but all are connected so we all pretty much work together most of the day.

In the company, there is a lot of banter (mostly coming from the men). When I say banter, I mean extreme sexual innuendo, such as (when a woman is on the floor getting something she dropped) - 'Oh you're on your knees, best place for you' or 'You've got white stuff on your ass, you dirty bitch,' or talk about masturbation and how we must be thinking about them at night, or even telling us to dump our boyfriends because they're better in bed. Some of the women joke back, some just try to laugh it off out of embarrassment.

Today, myself and another, quite young, member of staff (we're female) were told by one of our managers - 'I'm going to rape you both.' The other woman didn't hear this as she was walking off, but I did and to be honest, I took immediate offence to it, because I think it's despicable to joke about rape. I made it clear I was offended and said 'That's a disgusting thing to say, don't say that to me again,' to which my manager replied 'It's only disgusting if YOU believe I'd actually do it.' When I informed the other staff member of what was said, she was fuming and also told the manager not to speak to her like that again as she found it horrible. I can't remember his exact words but his reply was along the lines of 'Oh shut up, you'd enjoy it.'

TO be honest, we both feel that that comment went above and beyond normal staff banter. We are not the only women in the company that are sick and tired of the sexual comments, blatant come ons, and rumours of Irish staff members (women) sleeping with other members of staff.

Is there anything we can do, without naming and shaming each individual? It's an every day thing, but the managers take no notice and some even join in.

We just feel that after saying that we were offended, the manager today should have accepted that and shut up about it, but he just made more jokes about it, and then was asking were we ok a few hours later when we wouldn't speak to him except when absolutely necessary.

Does this sound like it's gone beyond normal banter, or should we just shut up and put up? I know at least two women that would back up anyone who were to complain about this, with their own complaints as we're all feeling really offended at the level of the 'banter' at this stage.

Eoin · 21-10-2011 12:22am

The first comments you mentioned would probably get someone in a good bit of trouble in my place, let alone the rest of the stuff you mentioned. In my mind, that's worse than the email thing that went on in PWC. That goes way beyond "banter".

I think you (and preferably other women as well) should talk to HR and be quite forthcoming with them about how uncomfortable it makes you. I would also consider keeping a log of those comments.

LegacyUser · 21-10-2011 12:35am

Thank you for your fast response, and posting the thread so fast.

I have been keeping a log for three months, which unfortunately has to be updated almost every day I'm in work. I advised the other girl who had the rape comment made to her to start keeping a log of incidents also, because she is only in the company a month and is extremely uncomfortable about it. I'll advise the third girl to keep a log also.

I just wasn't sure whether or not this went beyond normal banter, because I've never experienced anything like this before. I'm only young and my previous jobs were in all female environments, or in mixed environments where I was too young for them to even consider swearing in front of me.

What makes it worse is that only a year ago, a manager was sacked for sexually harrassing a young member of staff in pretty much the same way. I obviously don't want anything like that to happen of course, but just knowing I won't be treated like I'm a slut would be great.

One other thing (sorry for the questions!) - I'm supposed to be training in a different section, with the manager who said he'd rape me, alone, on the early morning shift, to train in some new stuff because I had been hoping to go for promotion (although am now reconsidering it). Would it be acceptable for me to say that I'd prefer not to do the training with this manager, and have one of the female staff train me instead? I really feel uncomfortable with him now. Just two days ago, I asked him to train me in using a complex piece of machinery, and he joked about 'putting your dildo on it and having fun!'

Tieko · 21-10-2011 5:48am

Wow, that is unbelievable. I would feel very uncomfortable working in that setting. I would speak to HR also but I have to say it sounds like it will be a difficult situation to turn around and might make things hard for you if people start getting disciplinary action over it.

Nody · 21-10-2011 6:30am

Eoin wrote: »

The first comments you mentioned would probably get someone in a good bit of trouble in my place, let alone the rest of the stuff you mentioned. In my mind, that's worse than the email thing that went on in PWC. That goes way beyond "banter".

I think you (and preferably other women as well) should talk to HR and be quite forthcoming with them about how uncomfortable it makes you. I would also consider keeping a log of those comments.

Good bit of trouble would not even start it in my company; that would go directly up to sexual harassment and if a manager said it well...

castie · 21-10-2011 6:52am

I think my CEO if he heard about this would actually come down and rape the manager himself after comments like that!

Hes more of a intimidate by doing kind of guy!

oldyouth · 21-10-2011 7:35am

Totally unacceptable in my opinion. Speak to HR about it, there is no place for that level of verbal abuse when someone is just trying to do their job. I must be well out of touch but I thought that behaviour was stamped out years ago, with the penalties that face employers these days for allowing it continue

Zulu · 21-10-2011 7:59am

As Eoin said, start keeping a detailed and extensive diary of comments & events. It would be ideal if you could get someone else to do the same, as shared entries would be devistating.
You need to object openly & clearly to every inital comment from now on. Record your opjections in the diary. So if someone says, "your on your knees..." state clearly that you find that highly offensive & you don't want similar comments made again.

Then after a significant amount is gathered - it sounds like it wouldn't take too long in there. Bring a COPY of it to a SOLISITOR and talk to them.
You need to take this to an independant legal source. They'll accompany you to HR & you'll lodge an offical complaint. Tell them what you want.

If what you are saying is true & comments are a blatant as that, you'll can probably expect a cheque to fund a personal folly for the next 3-5 years.

Eoin · 21-10-2011 9:38am

Zulu wrote: »

As Eoin said, start keeping a detailed and extensive diary of comments & events. It would be ideal if you could get someone else to do the same, as shared entries would be devistating.
You need to object openly & clearly to every inital comment from now on. Record your opjections in the diary. So if someone says, "your on your knees..." state clearly that you find that highly offensive & you don't want similar comments made again.

Then after a significant amount is gathered - it sounds like it wouldn't take too long in there. Bring a COPY of it to a SOLISITOR and talk to them.
You need to take this to an independant legal source. They'll accompany you to HR & you'll lodge an offical complaint. Tell them what you want.

If what you are saying is true & comments are a blatant as that, you'll can probably expect a cheque to fund a personal folly for the next 3-5 years.

I would go to HR immediately, and give them a chance to sort it out before marching in with a lawyer.

tenchi-fan · 21-10-2011 12:08pm

You're probably best zeroing in on the one manager over a few specific incidents, rather than going up against all the men in the organisation (especially considering that some of the women are taking part in the "banter")

CatFromHue · 21-10-2011 2:22pm

That's awful conduct!

If you don't make a stand for yourself and go to HR it will continue and you will end up hating going to work.

Best of luck that is extremely abnormal, to say the least, and very offensive conduct.

Evonatron · 21-10-2011 2:53pm

The minute you feel uncomfortable in the workplace is the minute that the banter has gone to far. For some people it can go on for awhile before they become offended, it doesn’t matter how long this has been going on for the second you feel that its wrong then it is. In regards to case law it is what you perceive to be harassment, whether the accuser thinks its banter, joking or having a laugh. I am surprised that this is so common in your place of work, I have come across these situations in my line of work before but from your description they seem to be no boundaries.

You have approached the person you have issue with which is what I would advise my staff to do, talk to the person - clearly he is not at all taking this seriously, so the next order of business is a visit to HR. Any HR person worth their salt will realise how serious this is and should really be proactively promoting the company Bullying and Harassment policies and procedures.

pickarooney · 25-10-2011 4:43pm

It's banter when it's two-way and the people involved are comfortable enough to know each others' limits.

This is aggressive bullying. I would tell him clearly something like "It's only a joke if I find it funny" if he tries to pass off his behaviour as normal.

Corruptedmorals · 26-10-2011 4:09pm

Totally unaccaptable and you NEED to go to HR. Bring the log. I worked in a store exactly like you describe, 150+staff blah blah, mixed environment. Occasional comments but nothing outrageous, definitely fell under the banter category. But what you've said is offensive and makes people extremely uncomfortable and intimidated- you can't keep on and not say anything, it will just enourage them in their belief that there's no harm in what they're saying. And from a manager too! Of course you might get stick for this especially if the people involved are quite popular but far better than letting this continue.

BostonB · 02-11-2011 12:29pm

I think if both of you went to HR they should take it very seriously.

nonstarter · 02-11-2011 4:09pm

I would go to the director/s and make an official complaint and keep a photocopy, It doesnt matter if youre there 3 mins or 3 months, That behaviour is not acceptable in a working environment and i would consider that extreme sexual harrassment. How would he feel if you or the other girl had been sexually assaulted in the past. He sounds like an absolute prick and deserves to be exposed or he will continue to make these sick remarks. Men that behave like this arent getting any.

faceman · 02-11-2011 4:18pm

Wow that's pretty shocking and unacceptable behaviour. First of all, you don't have to put up with it

Alot of people are saying go to HR which is what I'd recommend. However it sounds like the behaviour is widespread in the organisation from what you're saying.

Are you comfortable going to HR? If not, is there another manager you would be comfortable talkIng to? The higher up the individual the better but it's not necessarily essential

Someone advised you to go to a solicitor. That's unnecessary and pointless at this point.

You are doing the right thing by keeping a log.

Best of luck, I hope you get it resolved.

LegacyUser · 04-11-2011 7:47pm

Hi guys, thanks for the responses.

TO update and answer questions - I don't honestly feel comfortable enough to approach my HR department about it. They have proven on more than one occasion to be completely on the side of the perpetrator as opposed to the victim in similar situations. They do absolutely nothing to help and tbh I'm in their bad books because I made a valid complaint about a manager in a different store at the start of this year. It was sorted out in that he is not allowed speak to me, but I'm in their bad books.

Anyway, I decided to try to make it clear I'm not happy with the banter, by talking casually to another, higher up, manager about it. He refused to discuss it.

Then I decided to just ignore it. Went to a staff do with my boyfriend and only stayed for an hour. Next time I was in work, one of the two main guys told me 'You looked so sexy on X night.' I said nothing but 'ok,' to which he replied 'If your boyfriend wasn't with you, I'd have been taking you home.' I told him to F off at that. He also persists in calling me 'darling' despite me telling him numerous times not to.

Unfortunately, all of the other girls have decided it's all funny and a laugh, but I'm still very uncomfortable and unhappy with it, but see no other way to sort it out. It's gotten to the point where my boyfriend and I have lied and said we're engaged, just so that the guys wouldn't think I'm fair game

I have a diary with plenty of incidents recorded and at this stage, I'm considering just leaving.

gitane007 · 04-11-2011 7:48pm

Jesus, where do you work?........dickhead.inc ?. Ghod, those lads sound like ****in idots, what they're sayin is not even funny, im a bloke and id slag the **** out of someone for making stupid gags like that. Now yer man with the rape thing , id confront him if i heard that. Horrible **** and to think its funny, or gonna get a laugh ??

pffff,.....stupid *****. Its not even funny and they all need a slap by the sounds of it.

Zulu · 07-11-2011 11:34am

You need to go to HR and make a complaint. To need to give them the oppertunity to put it right. If you don't take that first step, nothing can be done about it.

When does work banter become inappropriate?

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