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    #32
    gargargar
    Registered Users Posts: 249 ✭✭gargargar


    At the start of the business you need a (mid-senior level) developer before a CTO. I certainly wouldn't get a non coding CTO. Your going to find it tough as there are many startups out there looking for CTOs.

    If you are giving shares away then get legal advice as if the guy walks away in 6 month you don't want them to take their shares. Look at some kind of vesting setup. Also DON'T GIVE THEM 50%. Will end up in a stale mate situation if things go wrong. I knew one 2 man company which was 50/50. Guys had a serious argument and the original idea owner could not come to agreement with the other guy and had no option but to shut it down.


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    #33
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    gargargar wrote: »
    At the start of the business you need a (mid-senior level) developer before a CTO. I certainly wouldn't get a non coding CTO. Your going to find it tough as there are many startups out there looking for CTOs.
    While I agree that he should probably not bring in a non coding CTO (or at least have one who will get their hands dirty at the start), a pure developer would lack skills that could be critical in the initial stages starting up a company.

    Note that a non-coding CTO could also have numerous coding resources at his or her disposal, especially those with off-shoring experience.
    Also DON'T GIVE THEM 50%. Will end up in a stale mate situation if things go wrong. I knew one 2 man company which was 50/50. Guys had a serious argument and the original idea owner could not come to agreement with the other guy and had no option but to shut it down.
    If he want's the person he'll either have to give them what they're worth or not get them. With regards to decision making, a memorandum of agreement can be written so that this is dealt with in a different fashion.


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    #34
    Aswerty
    Registered Users Posts: 586 ✭✭✭Aswerty


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I have no idea what type of founder the OP is. My primary purpose for mentioning what one is bringing to the table is that the importance of selling the venture to even a potential employee, let alone partner, is often overlooked and underestimated, regardless of what he's bringing to the table or how viable the venture is.

    I didn't take that from your post but it does make my reply redundant as a response to it.
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    As for being an interested party, I'm not. I'm not based in Ireland and my dance card is full, even were I in Ireland.

    I didn't mean interested in this project but in wider sense. I was highlighting that developers will have a developer centric mindset. And this may not be the best view point with regards the OP getting the best deal when partnering with such a party. I've heard of many developers getting burnt to the advantage of the person in the business role. Inherent self interest and empathy leads me not to promote such a scenario which biases my advice and I assume, the advice of others on this forum.


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    #35
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Aswerty wrote: »
    I didn't mean interested in this project but in wider sense. I was highlighting that developers will have a developer centric mindset. And this may not be the best view point with regards the OP getting the best deal when partnering with such a party. I've heard of many developers getting burnt to the advantage of the person in the business role. Inherent self interest and empathy leads me not to promote such a scenario which biases my advice and I assume, the advice of others on this forum.
    TBH, it's not in the OP's interests to hire a developer either as they will lack the level of understanding and experience on the organizational and business side of things - and if these are not done at the start properly, it can be a costly business to fix them later on.

    He's looking to set up a software company, and ultimately that means more than simply someone who can code up the software - it would be like starting a construction company and hiring a pure bricklayer to handle everything from architecture to managing other workers.

    So he needs to have someone who has at least a foot in the other major disciplines in the business (so this person can either do the work themselves or know when and what extra resources to bring in). In very, very simple terms these three disciplines tend to be engineering (development), analysis and project management and they often define other roles when they overlap, with a CTO being the one who has a foot in all of them:
    334980.png

    The above diagram is naturally an oversimplification, but it illustrates that if all you do is hire a developer, you're cutting out a large swathe of skills and experience that you'll wish you'd tapped into before long.


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    #36
    Aswerty
    Registered Users Posts: 586 ✭✭✭Aswerty


    Just to point out – I also think hiring a developer is a bad idea. A co-founder is needed; a person who will help drive the company to be successful.

    Most developers who are interested in founding or partnering in a start-up, in my experience, are well aware of the challenges beyond development. Said developer will grow into a C level role as business needs, and their own intuition, push them to handle the non-development aspects of growing a business. The person in the non-technical role will also grow into a C level role as the companies life cycle plays out. But from the offset I think considering these people anything beyond developers, domain experts, sales guys, etc. is at best premature. Though they might put a fancy title on a business card for personal esteem reasons or in an attempt to be taken more seriously within the market.

    You do get guys coming into start ups with the C level check box already ticked but I don't think it is as common – or at least I haven't heard of it as often. This is within the context of the software industry (and excluding the serial entrepreneur guys). I expect other industries are less accommodating to the "sure I'll give it a go" style since the monetary cost of getting to market is often significantly higher.

    My main point would be that the technical role just like all other roles in an early stage business are often filled by people with potential as opposed to people who already poses the desired skills and experience. Especially if the business doesn't have significant financial backing.


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    #37
    fergalr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    The Corinthian knows what he is talking about here.

    If you want a software company, you generally need a technical cofounder / CTO.

    I have seen a successful, though very domain-specific software company start with a semi-technical cofounder, and bring in a CTO at a later date. (while still a startup; I'm not talking about bringing in an experienced team here after the business is out of its initial phase, which is very common.)

    But that is a hard and risky way to start a software company. The more 'software' the company is, the more dangerous it is, and the important important a good technical cofounder is.


    Basically, if you want to start a startup, your first task is getting the team in place.

    Being able to convince a suitable candidate to become your technical cofounder is table stakes.

    You don't necessarily need someone with a track record - although of course that is a good indicator of suitability.

    If you can't convince someone suitable to be your technical cofounder, then you are going to have a hard time convincing all the other stakeholders.


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    #38
    EamonnDunne
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭EamonnDunne


    fergalr wrote: »

    If you can't convince someone suitable to be your technical cofounder, then you are going to have a hard time convincing all the other stakeholders.

    This is really the core of the issue. Your first "sale" is actually to a technical person to convince them to join. It's also one of the toughest.


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    #39
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    fergalr wrote: »
    I have seen a successful, though very domain-specific software company start with a semi-technical cofounder, and bring in a CTO at a later date. (while still a startup; I'm not talking about bringing in an experienced team here after the business is out of its initial phase, which is very common.)
    Out of curiosity; did you find that without a 'proper' CTO type present from the onset, you made initial road-map mistakes that would otherwise been caught? If so, how serious were these? If not, was it luck or am I over-blowing the need for a CTO type from day one (at least for your venture)?
    EamonnDunne wrote: »
    Your first "sale" is actually to a technical person to convince them to join.
    No. Any potential working partner. Even in a software company, technology is often not the most important factor.


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    #40
    fergalr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Out of curiosity; did you find that without a 'proper' CTO type present from the onset, you made initial road-map mistakes that would otherwise been caught? If so, how serious were these? If not, was it luck or am I over-blowing the need for a CTO type from day one (at least for your venture)?

    I wasn't talking about me - I was talking about another company I had seen who didn't have a technical cofounder.

    I'm pretty technical :-)


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    #41
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    fergalr wrote: »
    I wasn't talking about me - I was talking about another company I had seen who didn't have a technical cofounder.

    I'm pretty technical :-)
    Sorry, my mistake. Do you know have any observations as to their scenario though?


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