Why are we Irish so obsessed with the Israel-Palestine conflict?

Permabear · 03-06-2010 12:07pm #1

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karma_ · 03-06-2010 12:16pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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With India, Afghanistan, Somalia, Thailand, and Tibet we have very little that links us to them, of course we can condemn horrible actions but what could we possibly hope to achieve with China, the Taliban or the likes of India/Pakistan.

with Israel/Palestine we do have links, be they more economic or trade orientated or because the likes of the UK/US has such a direct impact on what happens there given the amount of aid the pump in. We can hope to affect political policy there by putting pressure on Israel to abide by the peace agreement.

wes · 03-06-2010 12:17pm

The Israel/Palestine conflict is a major flashpoint, that directly effects other conflict such as those in Iraq and Afghanistan. A lot of stuff in the Middle East revolves around this conflict, and it is a lot more important than the OP thinks it is imho.

seamus · 03-06-2010 12:17pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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IMHO, this is primarily it. It's a David -v- Goliath scenario, where a tiny nation of people struggle against a monolithic foreign power, and religion is used as motive for aggression even though as usual it's all about land.
It resonates so strongly with the Irish and our British occupation, that I think we feel like we need to get involved because we've been there before.

As Irish I also think we have a "live and let live" approach to life - which is reflected in our neutrality and our strong peacekeeping presence overseas. We just want everyone to get along and have some fun. Which is why we feel the most injustice is being done when people are being oppressed or attacked on the basis of religion.

Western media also likes to obsess over it a little bit - possibly because we have a "westernised", modern state of Israel surrounded by "savage Arab" states who have all sworn war upon it. When 5,000 people in New York are killed by terrorism, we haven't stopped talking about it for ten years, but when hundreds of thousands of poverty-stricken Africans are butchered in sub-saharan Africa, we forget about it 3 weeks later. It's all about the ability to relate.

sceptre · 03-06-2010 12:18pm

Mainly perceived parallels I suspect, at least initially. I don't agree with those parallels (except for my belief that both sides in both cases are complete tulips, I've said that before) but I reckon that's where it came from.

Obviously as individual "causes" become more well-known, they're taken up by more people who weren't attracted to them for the initial reasons, whatever those reasons may be (personal experiences, perceived personal or national parallels, whatever). Often people end up moving as a mass and getting interested in things their friends are interested in, frequently adopting the views of someone respected and knowledgeable in their peer group, above their peer group, the bright shadow of celebrity highlighting, wanting to get laid by the attractive girl on the corner with the pamphlets and the cute hat, all that kind of thing. Not always obviously, some people take up a banner on their own primary or secondary views or research, but often. But for those that are attracted to a cause in foreign lands based on something other than their own generated initial views or awareness, at that stage it's effectively past the tipping point.

Initial perception of national parallels, that's my assumption in this particular case for the early core growth of the obsession (as you put it), interest, views, etc. Everything else follows the general growth of any other view on an issue that doesn't directly affect the interested.

There's a small additional group of course in this one, people who don't like Jewish people. I'm ignoring that group, they exist (yes, even on boards.ie) but they're not significant.

FlutterinBantam · 03-06-2010 12:40pm

The OP is basing his query on the post evidence in this forum and he is correct.

There would appear to be a certain coterie who post in here for the specific purpose of attacking the US/ Israel, and keeping these threads going.

If any show signs of faltering, an new one appears and the whole cycle starts again.

We all know who they are, and I'm not saying they are wrong or making any adverse criticism,but those are the facts

I would suggest that the Irish interest in these affairs is far less, outside the rarefied politics forum here, where discussion is on much more mundane matters like jobs and health, and is not driven by a small group determined to promote their point of view to the apparent detriment of all others.

Only my opinion now, but check out the posts.

Byron85 · 03-06-2010 12:44pm

For me it's because of the historical parallels. I would consider myself a "republican lite", meaning that as far as i'm concerned the North, is Irish property, not British. What makes me "lite" is that I realised long ago that violence, at this stage of the game, will achieve nothing whatsoever and the only way that the North will ever be part of the Republic will be when there's an overwhelming majority in the North who want to be part of the Republic. Until then, the status quo at the moment is good enough for me. People aren't actively blowing each other up anymore and that's a massive step forward.

So, what I see going on in Palestine at the moment is the same thing that took place here a few centuries ago. "To hell or to Connaught" and all that.

Pittens · 03-06-2010 12:45pm

I am no fan of recent Israeli actions - but on the grand scheme of things Israel is a small country. Its land grab from the palestinians is small beer when looked upon historically.

The main reason: not anti-semitism. not anti-westernism. Fashion.

What is told is the Palestinian struggle. Other conflicts - most involving a big power and a small one - are not so readily shown by the media.

gandalf · 03-06-2010 12:45pm

donegalfella I suppose one of the reasons could be because the Irish Army spend so many years keeping the peace in Lebanon and we heard about the conflict for those years in our news reports.

That would be one reason I have an interest in it.

Another reason is that we as a nation have seen the effect of plantation of a people from outside, displacing those who were in place with the plantation of Ulster. We have seen the hatred that something that happened 400 years ago has bred on this Island and how it can poison all those involved and effect the countries directly neighbouring Ulster to this day. Maybe we hope that we can save the Israelis and Palestinians from the pain that has afflicted this Island over the years. The state of Israel exists and has every right to exist now no matter what way it was formed but it shouldn't be at the cost of keeping another people under a constant kosh.

I have other reasons why I am interested in the situation over there as well which I won't divulge here.

danbohan · 03-06-2010 12:51pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

The OP is basing his query on the post evidence in this forum and he is correct.

There would appear to be a certain coterie who post in here for the specific purpose of attacking the US/ Israel, and keeping these threads going.

If any show signs of faltering, an new one appears and the whole cycle starts again.

We all know who they are, and I'm not saying they are wrong or making any adverse criticism,but those are the facts

I would suggest that the Irish interest in these affairs is far less, outside the rarefied politics forum here, where discussion is on much more mundane matters like jobs and health, and is not driven by a small group determined to promote their point of view to the apparent detriment of all others.

Only my opinion now, but check out the posts.

you would never think that it might be that the Irish , despite all our faults have a decent sense of equality and justice and enough brainpower to know whats bulls;;;; unlike our American and UK friends

FlutterinBantam · 03-06-2010 12:57pm

danbohan wrote: »

you would never think that it might be that the Irish , despite all our faults have a decent sense of equality and justice and enough brainpower to know whats bulls;;;; unlike our American and UK friends

No I wouldn't,to be honest.

I'm quite sure the ordinary Joe and Joan trying to pay a mortgage and keep their heads above water, would certainly not be too exercised about a situation 2000kms away and fuelled by a terrorist regime,who although democratically elected,are bent on the destruction of an adjoining state.

I'd say Joe and Joan would much more concerned about the former situation sir.

junder · 03-06-2010 1:07pm

Might also have something to do with the provies have recieved training inthe middle east along side certain groups involved in isreali / palistine conflict. I also believe it suits republican propoganda to have it's cause connected with to a 'trendy' (certainly amoung left generlly middle class universty students ) this has led to the conflicts promotion within republican circles

danbohan · 03-06-2010 1:11pm

junder wrote: »

Might also have something to do with the provies have recieved training inthe middle east along side certain groups involved in isreali / palistine conflict. I also believe it suits republican propoganda to have it's cause connected with to a 'trendy' (certainly amoung left generlly middle class universty students ) this has led to the conflicts promotion within republican circles

so that would explain why loylists fly Israeli flags ,provies on left ornges with the facists

aDeener · 03-06-2010 1:17pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

No I wouldn't,to be honest.

I'm quite sure the ordinary Joe and Joan trying to pay a mortgage and keep their heads above water, would certainly not be too exercised about a situation 2000kms away and fuelled by a terrorist regime,who although democratically elected,are bent on the destruction of an adjoining state.

I'd say Joe and Joan would much more concerned about the former situation sir.

the likud party im assuming

gandalf · 03-06-2010 1:21pm

This is quite interesting reading about some of the events the Irish Peacekeepers were involved in over in the Lebanon.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?88240-A-history-of-Irish-peacekeeping-in-Lebanon

Haven't had a chance to read it all but it might explain why those of us from a certain generation have an Interest in that part of the world.

BlaasForRafa · 03-06-2010 1:23pm

danbohan wrote: »

you would never think that it might be that the Irish , despite all our faults have a decent sense of equality and justice and enough brainpower to know whats bulls;;;; unlike our American and UK friends

Thats just crap really, Irish people have no more greater sense of equality or justice than any other nation.

The palestinians do seem to have a much better sense of PR than other people in conflicts, for example millions have died in the congo in the last couple of decades yet the media presence of the various conflicts there is far lower than that of the palestinians.

Also I think fashion as someone earlier put it does have a part to play in it, it does seem to be cooler to support the palestinians, especially amongst the right-on do-gooder types and the socialist worker part types.

Also the Sinn Fein supporters on here seem to be virulent supporters of the palestinians which may have something to do with the northern Ireland question but also may have something to do with the fact that both campaigns are/were associated with terrorist groups and have had support from middle-eastern and/or arab countries.

prinz · 03-06-2010 1:26pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Pretty much that's basically it. There's also an element of fighting by proxy IMO which is where the republican element automatically go to one side etc.

As someone else said it's fashionable, there seems to be whole industry created around an anti-Israeli agenda, masquerading as some sort of interest in lives and human dignity.

In fairness the terrorists of the Mid-East really made it popular in the west over the last 50 years or so, with high profile hi-jackings, the Munich olympics disaster etc. The eyes of the world turned to the Mid-East and have never really left it.

But as you say, the death toll in sub-Saharan Africa is astronomical and it's barely mentioned if ever. Strange world.

karma_ · 03-06-2010 1:27pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Thats just crap really, Irish people have no more greater sense of equality or justice than any other nation.

The palestinians do seem to have a much better sense of PR than other people in conflicts, for example millions have died in the congo in the last couple of decades yet the media presence of the various conflicts there is far lower than that of the palestinians.

Also I think fashion as someone earlier put it does have a part to play in it, it does seem to be cooler to support the palestinians, especially amongst the right-on do-gooder types and the socialist worker part types.

Also the Sinn Fein supporters on here seem to be virulent supporters of the palestinians which may have something to do with the northern Ireland question but also may have something to do with the fact that both campaigns are/were associated with terrorist groups and have had support from middle-eastern and/or arab countries.

There we go folks, case solved.

If you think that the Palestinians are being treated unjustly your either a republican, a do-gooder, a terrorist sympathiser or a socialist and hell it's just fashionable.

danbohan · 03-06-2010 1:30pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Thats just crap really, Irish people have no more greater sense of equality or justice than any other nation.

The palestinians do seem to have a much better sense of PR than other people in conflicts, for example millions have died in the congo in the last couple of decades yet the media presence of the various conflicts there is far lower than that of the palestinians.

Also I think fashion as someone earlier put it does have a part to play in it, it does seem to be cooler to support the palestinians, especially amongst the right-on do-gooder types and the socialist worker part types.

Also the Sinn Fein supporters on here seem to be virulent supporters of the palestinians which may have something to do with the northern Ireland question but also may have something to do with the fact that both campaigns are/were associated with terrorist groups and have had support from middle-eastern and/or arab countries.

The palestinians do seem to have a much better sense of PR than other people in conflicts, for example millions have died in the congo in the last couple of decades yet the media presence of the various conflicts there is far lower than that of the palestinians.

yea i suppose the sight of f16s etc blowing the shi'''''' out of a densely populated city with no air force or effective anti aircraft defense was really a PR mirage created by the Palestinians

gandalf · 03-06-2010 1:34pm

More on the Irish Armies involvement in that region.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Our+army+heroes+are+coming+home+at+last%3B+PEACEKEEPERS+END+23+YEARS+ON...-a080001559

I am sure you would agree that 23 years peacekeeping would do a lot to foster an interest in the general populace of this country in the goings on in the region.

Sleepy · 03-06-2010 1:34pm

I think a lot of it is to do with the American/British support of Israel. Were the Israeli actions being carried out by any other state it's safe to say there'd have been UN sanctions against the perpetrators for years, if not decades.

Nodin · 03-06-2010 1:41pm

Sleepy wrote: »

I think a lot of it is to do with the American/British support of Israel. Were the Israeli actions being carried out by any other state it's safe to say there'd have been UN sanctions against the perpetrators for years, if not decades.

Essentially, yes.

As to other posts - I was unaware that it was "fashionable" to support any middle eastern country or people, particularily since 2001.

Certainly theres been support for the Palestinians based purely on the settlements and occupation for as long as I've been following it, which is over 25 years now. The idea that colonialism is wrong is not confined to socialists, Republicans or "do gooders" last I knew.

Wibbs · 03-06-2010 1:42pm

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

There would appear to be a certain coterie who post in here for the specific purpose of attacking the US/ Israel, and keeping these threads going.

If any show signs of faltering, an new one appears and the whole cycle starts again.

We all know who they are, and I'm not saying they are wrong or making any adverse criticism,but those are the facts

Not just the anti US/Israel side either though. How many new members did we get cross posting on just this subject since monday? Even bias is evident with your contention. I dont mean that in a pejorative way FB. Its just a divisive topic.

For me its more down to having Jewish mates growing up, so while many in the 70's were more pro PLO(with the republican connection), I kinda came at it from the other side. Nothing overt as in many ways Israel was just as remote to Irish Jews as Irish catholics/COE. More an idea than anything. And like you say people worry more about where their moneys coming from and their families. I'd reckon 90% of Israelis on both sides figure the same. Sadly the loud nutters get the airtime. Like has been said, the long history of Irish peacekeepers in my generation made its mark. Lebanon + Irish soldiers were words 9 times outa 10 in the same sentence. You'd see on the news all the time. Guys being killed and injured and helping build schools and hospitals and around xmas our lads handing out kids pressies. There exists a generation of Lebanese kids out there who are convinced that Santa has an Irish accent.

Maybe today we forget how much we should be proud of out there.

I also knew a fair few people who went out to Kibbutzes in the 70's and early 80's. All but one not Jewish too(he only lasted 4 months and I quote "The foods shíte and its too effin hot"

). So the Irish have a fair few connections to that part of the world on both sides going way back. Hell the original Israeli ragtag army based a lot of their tactics on the independence struggle here and acknowledged that. We also had a pretty big Jewish population in Ireland. In Dublin the south circular road had a load. Ironically now it's popular with the Musilm population. They seemed to grow smaller in the 80's(most of my mates went to the states, only one IIRC went to Israel) but more coming back now.

RonMexico · 03-06-2010 1:51pm

I would have to take issue with some of the comments in this thread which seem to always promote the idea that interest in this conflict is somehow dishonest only if you support the Palestinian people. Which is quite frankly, bollocks.

sceptre · 03-06-2010 2:04pm

Veering close to a discussion on the actual conflict in a small few posts folks. There are other places for that, please keep the wheels away from the ditch.

/mod

alastair · 03-06-2010 2:05pm

prinz wrote: »

As someone else said it's fashionable, there seems to be whole industry created around an anti-Israeli agenda, masquerading as some sort of interest in lives and human dignity.

A 'fashion' that's lasted a good 40 years at this stage?

There's a couple of reaons imo.

1. There is an obvious Irish interest/angle in the whole Middle East conflict from the get-go. British colonialism, Irish Israeli presidents, Irgun and Collins, etc.

2. The claim that Israel represents our/western values in some sort of culture war.

3. The religious issue - Jerusalem is/was pretty important to the Irish Holy Joe contingent.

4. The Israel-as-proxy-for-the-USA issue. Ireland has massive cultural buy-in to the US (politically and culturally), and has no problem in voicing criticism of 'the leader of the free world' when they screw up on the foreign policy front. (See Nicaragua, Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela, etc). Reagan was pretty flummoxed as to the level of concern over central american matters when he visited here.

5. Israel set themselves up for a fall on a regular basis. Which is why pretty much every spot on the globe has lost patience with their antics.

aDeener · 03-06-2010 2:33pm

alastair wrote: »

A 'fashion' that's lasted a good 40 years at this stage?

There's a couple of reaons imo.

1. There is an obvious Irish interest/angle in the whole Middle East conflict from the get-go. British colonialism, Irish Israeli presidents, Irgun and Collins, etc.

2. The claim that Israel represents our/western values in some sort of culture war.

3. The religious issue - Jerusalem is/was pretty important to the Irish Holy Joe contingent.

4. The Israel-as-proxy-for-the-USA issue. Ireland has massive cultural buy-in to the US (politically and culturally), and has no problem in voicing criticism of 'the leader of the free world' when they screw up on the foreign policy front. (See Nicaragua, Vietnam, Cuba, Venezuela, etc). Reagan was pretty flummoxed as to the level of concern over central american matters when he visited here.

5. Israel set themselves up for a fall on a regular basis. Which is why pretty much every spot on the globe has lost patience with their antics.

who all are you referring to here?

gandalf · 03-06-2010 2:36pm

aDeener wrote: »

who all are you referring to here?

I assume its Chaim Herzog.

reprazant · 03-06-2010 2:51pm

To all the people mentioning the Irish Army Peacekeeping forces being in the Leb, why do they not have the same interest in the happenings in Liberia, Congo, Chad, Rwanda or Darfur to name just a few off the top of my head?

While I realise that the aid flotilla is in the news now, hence the large thread, but when the latest horror story appears from the Congo or Darfur, there is barely a thread, if at all, on it.

Also, I don't think that it is just an Irish thing. Anything which happens in Israel/Palestine gets far more press, both local and international, then anything that would happen in Africa or Asia, or anywhere else in the Middle East for that matter.

conorhal · 03-06-2010 2:51pm

junder wrote: »

Might also have something to do with the provies have recieved training inthe middle east along side certain groups involved in isreali / palistine conflict. I also believe it suits republican propoganda to have it's cause connected with to a 'trendy' (certainly amoung left generlly middle class universty students ) this has led to the conflicts promotion within republican circles

As a nation we've always had sneaking regards for posturing paramilitaries (the bohys!), chest beating victimhood and atrocity apologists in this country, particularly among the nation's leftist movements many of whom were spawned by the war of independence/troubles, and who hold the Nationalist narrative in high regard.

karma_ · 03-06-2010 3:05pm

conorhal wrote: »

As a nation we've always had sneaking regards for posturing paramilitaries (the bohys!), chest beating victimhood and atrocity apologists in this country, particularly among the nation's leftist movements many of whom were spawned by the war of independence/troubles, and who hold the Nationalist narrative in high regard.

Nonsense to be honest. Ireland has always leaned more to the right-wing.

How many blue-shirts headed off to fight for Franco? More than headed off to fight against fascism for sure.

I openly admit my left wing leanings, I'm also a pacifist and not much of a patriot, and I have never made excuses for an atrocity in my life.

I guess that doesn't fit into your grand scheme of things.

Why are we Irish so obsessed with the Israel-Palestine conflict?

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