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Could this spell the start of the end for FF

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Fantastic Ard Fheis, positive and constructive discussions amongst the 5,000+ members in regards what needs to change in the party in order to ensure past mistakes are not repeated.

    It was great to see the entirety of the organisational reform motions pass almost unanimously on Saturday, ensuring that the necessary change in the structures of the organisation can now occur in order to allow the empowerment of the ordinary member. It really is a game changer for the party and represents the greatest alteration in the structures of the movement since its foundation.

    I also personally enjoyed the discussions in regard social policy and I was glad to see the same sex marriage motion being carried - I think that particular motion highlights that the party is moving on with the times. Also it was fantastic to see gender quotas being opposed in favour of creating policy which will actually encourage greater female participation in politics rather than women just being used as fodder on a ballot. More of those frank discussions need to happen, without them the party would be going nowhere. The opposition to the gender quotas illustrates that the ordinary members are not always just going to row in behind the party leadership in a show of blind faith, the practice of which in the past ensured elected representatives got away with doing things which were just downright wrong.

    It was interesting to listen to the treasures report also, with members presented with the opportunity to question and challenge not only Niall Collins TD in regards the financial activities of the party, but also HQ finance staff. I am nearly certain that this was the first time this sort of a treasurers report occurred at an Ard Fheis and long may it continue!

    One thing members were not really discussing all that much were opinion poll results - I think it dawned on everyone that if the hard work undertaken at the Ard Fheis continues then a regain of support is inevitable. Interesting times ahead, that's for sure!

    First of all, social polices are not really on the top of peoples prorities. We are in the middle of an economic crisis and will be for the next few years at least. A crisis caused more or less by FF. Backing Gay marriage and expecting a big bump in the polls kinda shows us that they still don't get it. FF are like the Torries in 1997, they still think the problem is with the voters not them. They have to change utterly to be acceptable and even with that many many people will never vote for them again regardless of what they do. Thats life!

    I still have no idea what they stand for (apart from Gay marriage!). Arm chair populist republicanism is dead and wont garner much votes any more.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,282 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    There is one question that is itching on my mind for a while now; When FF officially does go under the hatchet (whenever that will be), what will happen primarily to the TD's and Senators when it is wound up?

    Is it going to be in the same position as the PD's left and became independents or will they all resign their seats straight away?

    I mean the notion of former FF TD's going into different party affiliations in the present day does not sound right IMO.

    The country has seen them go down once a year ago. The public would realise nowadays that their policies are just being described as lazy and self defeating.


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,274 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    jank wrote: »
    First of all, social polices are not really on the top of peoples prorities. We are in the middle of an economic crisis and will be for the next few years at least. A crisis caused more or less by FF. Backing Gay marriage and expecting a big bump in the polls kinda shows us that they still don't get it. FF are like the Torries in 1997, they still think the problem is with the voters not them. They have to change utterly to be acceptable and even with that many many people will never vote for them again regardless of what they do. Thats life!

    I still have no idea what they stand for (apart from Gay marriage!). Arm chair populist republicanism is dead and wont garner much votes any more.


    Social policy is a very important thing in a recession, you just don't get any thanks for it and might get the policy enacted 10 years later, Garret and divorce for example or never, Garret and Abortion for example! ;)

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Not really.. Any objective analysis would say that FF are more or less in the same place as they were this time last year (although I would never accuse you of being objective when it comes to FF) . .

    Sunday Independent poll today was imo far more interesting. . . 36% of those polled want to see FF recover and become a realistic alternative party in government, far more than the 23% who want to see Sinn Fein in government.

    Another interesting finding in this poll . . Only 3% of people polled think they are to blame for the current economic crisis. . Strange, considering that Fianna Fail achieved 41% of first preference votes as recently as 2007, and I'll wager that more than 3% of us have either had investment properties, 100% mortgages or holidays/cars etc that we cannot afford. . We might not all have gone mad (as other posters will be quick to remind me) but certainly more than 3% of us did




    +1 . . I am hoping that this weekend will be a turning point for FF . . no more apologies and gestures. Time to shed the sackcloth and ashes and get on with leading the opposition.

    I had another look at the weekend polls

    The Independent gave a very FF biased view. And hallelujajordan just reiterated this biased view.

    Here are some real stats from the weekend

    83% of people would not vote FF first preference.
    In fact 40% of people do not want FF to recover and become a realistic alternative party of government. 28% are strongly of this view.


    39% blame FF for the state of the economy

    23% would like to see Sinn Fein in government unfortunately.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    raymon wrote: »
    I had another look at the weekend polls

    The Independent gave a very FF biased view. And hallelujajordan just reiterated this biased view.

    Here are some real stats from the weekend

    83% of people would not vote FF first preference.
    In fact 40% of people do not want FF to recover and become a realistic alternative party of government. 28% are strongly of this view.


    39% blame FF for the state of the economy

    23% would like to see Sinn Fein in government unfortunately.

    Indeed, only 40% of people DO NOT want to see Fianna Fail recover. .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Indeed, only 40% of people DO NOT want to see Fianna Fail recover. .

    Exactly , so where is the good news ? That 36% that you refer to don't necessarily want them in govt. Only 17% would give them preference. The 36% just don't want them to die off completely yet

    Looks pretty hopeless for FF


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Only 3% of people polled think they are to blame for the current economic crisis
    raymon wrote:
    39% blame FF for the state of the economy

    Who's telling porkies ?

    Oh - hj.....no "maybe" about it, so no need for that word if you want to try being genuinely open and truthful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    raymon wrote: »
    Exactly , so where is the good news ? That 36% that you refer to don't necessarily want them in govt. Only 17% would give them preference. The 36% just don't want them to die off completely yet

    Looks pretty hopeless for FF

    And I would count myself in those 36% who want to see FF playing a strong role in opposition but who do not want to see them in government (at least not for a while) . . However, I am able to recognise that we need a strong opposition and this will not come from either SF or the Independents .
    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Who's telling porkies ?

    .

    Not sure what you mean? 3% of people are willing to blame themselves. 39% blame FF ?..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    Ah - I read it that the "they" meant FF

    3% of 4.5 million is what ? 135,000 people ?

    And the main golden circle is about 90 people that owe the vast majority of the private debt that FF lumped us with, IIRC ?

    135,000 people is a hell of a lot more than the core actual cause, but at least it's a starting debating point as to how many.....that said, FF had more votes than that so I'd agree that it's on the low side.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,452 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    There is one question that is itching on my mind for a while now; When FF officially does go under the hatchet (whenever that will be), what will happen primarily to the TD's and Senators when it is wound up?

    Is it going to be in the same position as the PD's left and became independents or will they all resign their seats straight away?

    I mean the notion of former FF TD's going into different party affiliations in the present day does not sound right IMO.

    The country has seen them go down once a year ago. The public would realise nowadays that their policies are just being described as lazy and self defeating.

    Do you think the thousands of FF members and activists would just disappear off the face of the planet if hypothetically one day Martin woke up in a crazed manner and wound down the party? These are people who are committed to public life no matter the case.

    Nope, I can assure you that will not be the case.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    Liam Byrne wrote: »
    Ah - I read it that the "they" meant FF

    3% of 4.5 million is what ? 135,000 people ?

    And the main golden circle is about 90 people that owe the vast majority of the private debt that FF lumped us with, IIRC ?

    135,000 people is a hell of a lot more than the core actual cause, but at least it's a starting debating point as to how many.....that said, FF had more votes than that so I'd agree that it's on the low side.

    I'm flabbergasted. . you really believe that the 'core actual cause' is down to 90 people ? ? ? 90 people created the Celtic Tiger, overheated the economy and inflated a most enormous property bubble. .

    I can accept your assertion that not everyone was responsible for the creation of a bubble that eventually exploded all over us, but 90 people . . . really ? ? ?

    What about the many many people who overspent, overborrowed, invested in property, bought cars/holidays/holiday homes/property extensions that they couldn't afford . . that continued to reward a government that put money in their pockets, that successfully encouraged the opposition parties at the time to adopt more or less the same economic policies. . ?? What about the people that were willing to accept the loans they knew they couldn't afford.. the ones that you were prudent enough to turn down ??

    I'm flabbergasted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    I'm flabbergasted. . you really believe that the 'core actual cause' is down to 90 people ? ? ? 90 people created the Celtic Tiger, overheated the economy and inflated a most enormous property bubble. .

    I can accept your assertion that not everyone was responsible for the creation of a bubble that eventually exploded all over us, but 90 people . . . really ? ? ?

    What about the many many people who overspent, overborrowed, invested in property, bought cars/holidays/holiday homes/property extensions that they couldn't afford . . that continued to reward a government that put money in their pockets, that successfully encouraged the opposition parties at the time to adopt more or less the same economic policies. . ?? What about the people that were willing to accept the loans they knew they couldn't afford.. the ones that you were prudent enough to turn down ??

    I'm flabbergasted.

    Here we go again with more FF history rewriting.

    The main cause of the biggest financial disaster in Irelands history was Fianna Fail, Michael Martin admitted it and said sorry. Was I hearing things when all the FFers stood up and clapped and cheered and waved their FF flags and balloons in the air , united in glee???

    It was your personal hero Bertie who also played a huge part.

    Am I missing something ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,080 ✭✭✭hallelujajordan


    raymon wrote: »
    Here we go again with more FF history rewriting.

    The main cause of the biggest financial disaster in Irelands history was Fianna Fail, Michael Martin admitted it and said sorry. Was I hearing things when all the FFers stood up and clapped and cheered and waved their FF flags and balloons in the air , united in glee???

    It was your personal hero Bertie who also played a huge part.

    Am I missing something ?

    Michael Martin admitted that Fianna Fail made mistakes and apologised on behalf of the party for those mistakes. . He was right on both counts . .

    Does that mean that no other mistakes were made ? That no one else is culpable ? That there is no responsibility on those who overspent/overborrowed/overinvested in a hyper-inflated property market ? ? ? No responsibility on those who repeatedly rewarded and encouraged short term economic policies that served to feed the tiger and inflate the bubble ? ?

    It seems that Fianna Fail are the only ones willing to acknowledge their culpability . . but that certainly does not mean that they are the only ones culpable. .


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    Michael Martin admitted that Fianna Fail made mistakes and apologised on behalf of the party for those mistakes. . He was right on both counts . .

    Does that mean that no other mistakes were made ? That no one else is culpable ? That there is no responsibility on those who overspent/overborrowed/overinvested in a hyper-inflated property market ? ? ? No responsibility on those who repeatedly rewarded and encouraged short term economic policies that served to feed the tiger and inflate the bubble ? ?

    It seems that Fianna Fail are the only ones willing to acknowledge their culpability . . but that certainly does not mean that they are the only ones culpable. .

    It is true that Fianna Fail did have accomplices in causing our bankruptcy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MOD NOTE:

    This thread is not about how many people went crazy during the crisis - it is about POLLING.

    And let me also add: if you cannot comment without calling people cnuts, scum, etc, this is not the forum for you.

    Off topic and ranty posts deleted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    polls serve no useful purpose only to try and distort peoples opinion, they should be banned. there is only one poll that counts and only one should be allowed


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 18,163 ✭✭✭✭Liam Byrne


    For the record I want to clarify that I replied to hj's questions but the post appears to have been removed.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    polls serve no useful purpose only to try and distort peoples opinion
    Well, they can act as a useful check on politicians pursuing unpopular measures.

    If a party rapidly loses popularity, such a result can inspire a revision of the party or the Government's policies to one preferred by the public.

    Without public opinion polls, one might argue that policymakers would have far greater scope to deny their unpopularity or overstate the popularity of their policies in light of no evidence to the contrary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    later12 wrote: »
    Well, they can act as a useful check on politicians pursuing unpopular measures.

    If a party rapidly loses popularity, such a result can inspire a revision of the party or the Government's policies to one preferred by the public.

    Without public opinion polls, one might argue that policymakers would have far greater scope to deny their unpopularity or overstate the popularity of their policies in light of no evidence to the contrary.

    what if those unpopular measures are in our best interests long term


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    what if those unpopular measures are in our best interests long term

    Then you should try to convince the majority that this is the case.

    Another option would be to go down a non democratic route. Then you wouldn't need polls.

    Are you a Sinn Fein supporter by any chance?

    I think polls are necessary .


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    what if those unpopular measures are in our best interests long term
    That's representative democracy for you. It exists, in theory, as the representative organism of the people acting as an arm of 'the state'.

    It isn't called 'wise democracy', or a 'technocracy', and thank goodness for that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    raymon wrote: »
    Then you should try to convince the majority that this is the case.

    Another option would be to go down a non democratic route. Then you wouldn't need polls.

    Are you a Sinn Fein supporter by any chance?

    I think polls are necessary .

    why? they dont give an accurate picture and serve no useful purpose


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭blinding


    Sinn Fein are doing a very good job sending ff into the dustbin of history and I commend them for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    blinding

    Sinn Fein are doing a very good job sending ff into the dustbin of history and I commend them for it.


    I'd rejoice also to an extent. My problem is that I wonder if it is really worth the stench of cordite and criminality that lingers in the room. They have shown themselves to be reasonably competent in Northern Irelands administration, but that is also, to a certain extent assisted by the checks and balances provided by having some parts of the system managed from Westminister. In the Republic, I am certain they would follow the populist line to get the votes, and then become pragmatic to run the show.

    I dislike Fianna Fail, but they have an intrinsic understanding of money and finance. Unfortunately, this has a tendency every Quarter century or so to descend into irrational exuberance, for the human personality is hard wired to chase easy looking avenues to success and prosperity. That to me is the actual cause of the crash as much as mismanagement. They had the networking skills, both in Ireland and abroad to get the investment. In fact, for a rock on the edge of Europe (Ireland), for 20 odd years, they did a reasonably good job. Just any party, in too long, rot sets in. It happened to the Republicans in USA under Bush II, it happened to the Tories under Major in Britain, it happened to Labour after Blair resigned in Britain too, and certainly, under Ahern with Fianna Fail, followed by what can only be described as the most abominable administration ever to disgrace the halls of Dail Eireann.

    The 2nd last election of May 2007 saw Fianna Fail win, and do quite well. We knew that a recession was approaching, and in a sense they were reelected on the premise "They took credit for the boom, let them handle the bust"

    Fianna Fail - they have'nt gone away you know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,299 ✭✭✭✭later12


    dermo88 wrote: »
    I dislike Fianna Fail, but they have an intrinsic understanding of money and finance. Unfortunately, this has a tendency every Quarter century or so to descend into irrational exuberance
    As someone who has been accused of being an apologist for Fianna Fail at various times, I have to say that's an interesting take on their economic history both as a party and in Government!

    I count literally two economically commendable Fianna Fail led administrations preceding the Celtic tiger era (don't worry, there are no Fine Gael examples), but the above statement is still quite a stretch. Sound economic leadership in Fianna Fail governments tends to be a freak event.


  • Registered Users Posts: 836 ✭✭✭uberalles


    dermo88 wrote: »
    blinding

    Sinn Fein are doing a very good job sending ff into the dustbin of history and I commend them for it.

    I'd rejoice also to an extent. My problem is that I wonder if it is really worth the stench of cordite and criminality that lingers in the room. They have shown themselves to be reasonably competent in Northern Irelands administration, but that is also, to a certain extent assisted by the checks and balances provided by having some parts of the system managed from Westminister. In the Republic, I am certain they would follow the populist line to get the votes, and then become pragmatic to run the show.

    I dislike Fianna Fail, but they have an intrinsic understanding of money and finance. Unfortunately, this has a tendency every Quarter century or so to descend into irrational exuberance, for the human personality is hard wired to chase easy looking avenues to success and prosperity. That to me is the actual cause of the crash as much as mismanagement. They had the networking skills, both in Ireland and abroad to get the investment. In fact, for a rock on the edge of Europe (Ireland), for 20 odd years, they did a reasonably good job. Just any party, in too long, rot sets in. It happened to the Republicans in USA under Bush II, it happened to the Tories under Major in Britain, it happened to Labour after Blair resigned in Britain too, and certainly, under Ahern with Fianna Fail, followed by what can only be described as the most abominable administration ever to disgrace the halls of Dail Eireann.

    The 2nd last election of May 2007 saw Fianna Fail win, and do quite well. We knew that a recession was approaching, and in a sense they were reelected on the premise "They took credit for the boom, let them handle the bust"

    Fianna Fail - they have'nt gone away you know.

    FF will always get this vote:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsnLyHKWtrg&NR=1

    Thankfully most people know they are rotten to the core and they will never recover.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,000 ✭✭✭dermo88


    uberalles

    Thankfully most people know they are rotten to the core and they will never recover.

    Not quite. I think its often a mentality of "better the devil we know than the devil we don't". I mean, those who supported Haughey for example in his time knew what he was, and that he was a slippery character. But I say this reluctantly, he was a trader in the true sense of the word and a negotiator.

    Most people around the world will go through "Barrabas syndrome". They'd let the honest man get crucified because hes honest, but incapable of solving a collective problem and allow the murdering thief to go free about his job.

    And I'm no saint. I don't like political cute hoors. Business wise, its different, it depends on the size of the fiddle. So I can be very hypocritical in that regard. The taxman is not someone I feel a personal affinity with, someone who has a positive influence on my life, so.....as a consequence, there is a tendency in many societies to engage in sharp practice. Especially when the system appears unfair, obtuse, or illogical.

    later12
    I count literally two economically commendable Fianna Fail led administrations preceding the Celtic tiger era

    Lemass (1959-1969) and Haughey into Reynolds, mainly when Ray MacSharry was in Finance (1989-1993)

    (don't worry, there are no Fine Gael examples)

    Ususally because they become the toilet cleaners after the teenage disco discovers the Tequila shots and exctasy tablets. I forgot to mention, they overdosed the last time on Crystal Meth, Ketamine and Cocaine. I wonder where they got that from? The first time, one or two vomited, no big deal. The second time, there were a couple of used condoms on the floor, a couple of empty Vodka bottles, no great shakes. The third and most recent.......OH MY GOD. 10 passed out, 2 in critical at the Mater, 6 of those who passed out had dirtied their underwear, the stench was repulsive, its horrific, but we'll try our best to clean it up before the morning shift takes over, and do what we can.

    The morning shift resumes, and takes all the credit.

    Thats Fianna Fail - Fine Gael. Thats the history.

    Economic management is as much about luck rather than skill in itself. I mean the likes of Richie Ruin Ryan as Finance Minister, honest as the day was long, but had'nt a damn clue about commercial realities and how money in an economy was generated, particularly in a semi-wealthy country like Ireland. Meanwhile....Haughey, an awful man (restraining my language), had a clue. It is his early years prior to his disgrace in the 1971 Arms trial that will stand to his credit, and possibly his last term, although much of the economic credit has to go to Ray MacSharry in my eyes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    After today the i think its the final nail in the coffin bye bye FF you corrupt pack of bastards......


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 409 ✭✭john reilly


    gerry adams for taoiseach


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,774 ✭✭✭raymon


    RedC/Paddy Power compared with RedC/BizPost March 3rd

    FG 35 +5, Lab 16 nc, FF 15 -2, SF 14 -4, Ind 20 +1.

    Great to see the slide of FF continue. I am amazed that that are still in double figures. Not for long hopefully


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