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Rogue cyclists set to face on-the-spot fines MOD WARNING in first post

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Comments

  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,997 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    shansey wrote: »
    I wonder how many cycle accidents are caused by cyclists actually breaking red lights.. The vast majority are smart enough not to cycle straight out into oncoming traffic. I've broken the odd pedestrian one when its obvious there is no one there crossing. does no harm.
    according to a link above, 2% of serious accidents involving cyclists in london were caused by a cyclist running a red.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    kazamo wrote: »
    It would be convenient for you if this was down to one rogue cyclist......but it's not.
    It matters little to me whether it's one or one hundred, not sure what you mean by that?
    You are basing your opinion on commuting in which you are travelling at probably a decent pace so cyclists would rarely overtake you.
    Mine is based on walking for about 2 hours 4-5 nights a week and facing these cyclists as well as keeping an eye out for cyclists from behind. I don't walk at normal commuter times but later on in the evening so the absence of lights on these bikes is probably the main reason they are using the footpath.
    If anyone cycled on the footpaths along my commute I would probably pass them out and notice them - I'm not sure why you don't seem to be interested in anybody else's experiences or observations on the prevalence of cycling on footpaths. The lights thing is another issue - anybody cycling after dark without lights is an idiot and should be subject to the full rigours of the law - especially at the
    Not sure trafficwatch would be that interested if there wasn't an accident.
    Call them. Report it as an ongoing serious problem and if they ignore it, then you can see what other steps you can take
    Cycling on a footpath is an offence in theory but it is one the gardai don't seem to enforce except in exceptional circumstances.
    Completely agree - and there are quite a few other offences that fall into this category as well.
    Any cycling on footpaths is illegal per the statute books, but based on comments by the Minister Donohue that may change as he seems against the idea of FPN for this.
    The lack of FPN for an offence in no way suggests that it is going to be removed from the statute books.
    He also doesn't have the money to put in a proper cycling infrastructure.
    Dedicated cycling infrastructure wouldn't be necessary if people obeyed all the rules of the road and learned to share the space better.
    There is a busy roundabout near me and there are plans to realign it to cater for more traffic.
    As part of the work, the footpaths on all four corners of the junction will now become "shared surface for pedestrians and cyclists".
    Wouldn't be surprised if more footpaths went that way.
    Not a fan of this at all and I don't use such facilities at roundabouts - where is this one going to be? In saying that, I have found in some locations that shared facilities have worked quite well and force everybody to be a little more considerate.


  • Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Well good, a shared cycle lane/footpath lined properly to distinguish the two is surely a good thing? If done properly of course?

    Safer for cyclists? Safer for pedestrians? Plenty of pedestrians think it is ok to walk/jog on the cycle lanes of Dublin. Not as dangerous as a cyclist on a footpath but bloody annoying and dangerous at times?

    The shared area doesn't look like as if it will be split into 2 separate and distinct parts, more an area where you can walk or cycle where you like. The 4 planned zebra crossings will spice it up a bit more


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    kazamo wrote: »
    The shared area doesn't look like as if it will be split into 2 separate and distinct parts, more an area where you can walk or cycle where you like. The 4 planned zebra crossings will spice it up a bit more

    Right, send us a link to the proposal or even just tell us where the junction is?


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭buffalo


    kazamo wrote: »
    The shared area doesn't look like as if it will be split into 2 separate and distinct parts, more an area where you can walk or cycle where you like. The 4 planned zebra crossings will spice it up a bit more

    Have you complained to the local councillors? I never understand this sort of design, and the more people object, the more they'll heed the message. The NCBI are against it as well.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kazamo


    The lights thing is another issue - anybody cycling after dark without lights is an idiot and should be subject to the full rigours of the law - especially at the
    Not a fan of this at all and I don't use such facilities at roundabouts - where is this one going to be? In saying that, I have found in some locations that shared facilities have worked quite well and force everybody to be a little more considerate.

    If there were prosecutions for not having lights we wouldn't be talking.

    It's more than one "offence" that is occurring for most of them but seem to be immune from prosecution. I can understand why people cycle on paths around where I live and tbh if I had to cycle to get somewhere around here, I would do likewise.
    Going at a reasonable speed and having lights at night would be a big help.

    The roundabout in question : cannot post attachments urls yet so search
    R407 Sallins Road Osberstown Roundabout.....Kildare.ie has the report

    The drawings of new roundabout near bottom of presentation
    Currently only cycle lane in existence is to the west so plan looks like to start introducing more. No issue with that in principle but the route north is approaching a narrow bridge with footpath not wide enough to cater for both cyclists and pedestrians
    The entry\exit points to the north and south have the biggest restrictions space wise and if it was me I would make one side all cycling and other side all pedestrians as mixing the two is not fair on either cohort


  • Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kazamo


    buffalo wrote: »
    Have you complained to the local councillors? I never understand this sort of design, and the more people object, the more they'll heed the message. The NCBI are against it as well.

    Yes I have to one local councillor and also spoke to a couple of parents who's children will be using that junction in a few years when they attend secondary school.

    Not much interest sadly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    kazamo wrote: »
    If there were prosecutions for not having lights we wouldn't be talking.
    Hence my whole argument about the introduction of FPNs - they won't be policed and they don't address the actual priority issues regarding poor cycling behaviour and dangerous road users in general. They won't make a difference to your situation at all - incidentally, there should be no need for anyone to cycle on the footpath there, I've ridden that road (along by the Tesco etc.) plenty of times and it's perfectly safe.

    The drawings of new roundabout near bottom of presentation
    Currently only cycle lane in existence is to the west so plan looks like to start introducing more. No issue with that in principle but the route north is approaching a narrow bridge with footpath not wide enough to cater for both cyclists and pedestrians
    The entry\exit points to the north and south have the biggest restrictions space wise and if it was me I would make one side all cycling and other side all pedestrians as mixing the two is not fair on either cohort
    I wouldn't have a huge problem with the limited mixing they have indicated in the immediate vicinity of the roundabout, although I'd probably have kept them segregated myself. One major issue I'd have is the "tie into existing" dismissal of the east exit where there are no existing cycling facilities. Facilities to the west are decent, but using google streetview you can see a cyclist approach from the north on the footpath, cross the pedestrian crossing and continue south on the footpath - even though a cycle lane exists heading this way. Checking out streetview there seems to be a faintly marked cycle lane heading north - this should be re-painted and it'd be fine then. I wouldn't be using the shared facilites there anyway, and anybody travelling quickly enough to cause problems on them shouldn't be using them either.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Hence my whole argument about the introduction of FPNs - they won't be policed and they don't address the actual priority issues regarding poor cycling behaviour and dangerous road users in general. They won't make a difference to your situation at all - incidentally, there should be no need for anyone to cycle on the footpath there, I've ridden that road (along by the Tesco etc.) plenty of times and it's perfectly safe.

    You can't say that - policing these minor offences will now be a lot easier from the Garda's point of view. Less paperwork and follow-up with an FPN should mean they'll be more inclined to collar someone than when they had to go to court.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,583 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    buffalo wrote: »
    You can't say that - policing these minor offences will now be a lot easier from the Garda's point of view. Less paperwork and follow-up with an FPN should mean they'll be more inclined to collar someone than when they had to go to court.

    Less O/T for the court appearances though.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 331 ✭✭roverrules


    tunney wrote: »
    Less O/T for the court appearances though.
    Probably plenty of o/t from people giving false details, they aren't covered by an fpn afaik


  • Registered Users Posts: 795 ✭✭✭kazamo


    Hence my whole argument about the introduction of FPNs - they won't be policed and they don't address the actual priority issues regarding poor cycling behaviour and dangerous road users in general. They won't make a difference to your situation at all - incidentally, there should be no need for anyone to cycle on the footpath there, I've ridden that road (along by the Tesco etc.) plenty of times and it's perfectly safe.



    I wouldn't have a huge problem with the limited mixing they have indicated in the immediate vicinity of the roundabout, although I'd probably have kept them segregated myself. One major issue I'd have is the "tie into existing" dismissal of the east exit where there are no existing cycling facilities. Facilities to the west are decent, but using google streetview you can see a cyclist approach from the north on the footpath, cross the pedestrian crossing and continue south on the footpath - even though a cycle lane exists heading this way. Checking out streetview there seems to be a faintly marked cycle lane heading north - this should be re-painted and it'd be fine then. I wouldn't be using the shared facilites there anyway, and anybody travelling quickly enough to cause problems on them shouldn't be using them either.

    I never disagreed with you re the lack of policing of any new measures.
    We don't enforce what we have, so the likelihood that we enforce new ones is wishful thinking.
    I still maintain that if they were policed, it would make a difference.

    Re the cycling on footpaths in that particular area, the main source of it is from north south direction on the narrow route between Sallins to Naas. Outside Tesco is not an issue as area wide enough to avoid them for the very occasional cyclist you do meet there. Similarly the wide shared path at Woodies roundabout heading towards Naas is not an issue as visibility is good and the space is wide enough and it is legal to cycle there.

    The worst spot is the area without street lighting from the bridge heading north towards Sallins. Meeting a cyclist there who isn't using lights is not pleasant and it happens quite a bit. Sometimes I get lucky that road traffic from either direction may show up their outline, once it was the screen on the phone they were holding illuminating and I stepped onto the road to avoid collision and sometimes it is just pure blind luck and the cyclist is past me before I have seen them. And I am watching for them.
    The ironic part is the bridge was renovated\repaired whatever about 18 months ago, and they apparently wired it for lights but didn't take that final step and install them.

    You said earlier that cycling at night without lights is a no no.......if the new regime of FPN's cured that, I would be delighted...at least I have a chance to see them in the darkness and they could see my hideously bright fluorescent jacket and avoid me.....win win all round

    I wish that repainting the road markings to indicate a cycle lane would be sufficient to fix cycling on footpaths. However if they don't have lights on their bike they wont be using the road no matter have many markings on the road.

    Re the areas of limited mixing, if allowed to cycle there, is the next step to allow cyclists to cycle across the zebra crossing and avoid the need to dismount altogether. Also, would many actually move back down onto the road to follow the cycle lane north or south when they are already on the footpath. Some already do it, and whats the punishment for doing this.....zilch.
    My own view is that at junctions the cyclists and those walking should be kept separate as a common area for both creates uncertainty as to which side to walk cycle on. If the cycle lane forms part of the pathway and the cycle lane ends, cyclist should dismount.

    Yes, a gigantic pain in the axxx for the cyclist but I see it as the safest option. I don't like the areas of mix zones as it adds the element of uncertainty.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey


    kazamo wrote: »

    Re the cycling on footpaths in that particular area, the main source of it is from north south direction on the narrow route between
    The worst spot is the area without street lighting from the bridge heading north towards Sallins. .

    These lights are being installed at the minute though.

    Anyways that's an aside, that area is fine for cycling on the road, I do it regular, it is impossible to use the cycle lanes heading west (into Millennium park) as you are forced to cross the road at the canal bridge crest in a driver's blind spot on a narrow bridge with limited street lighting, and all the kerbs are too high to cycle over. Another example of a good idea done poorly. The realignment of the roundabout won't solve anything but Cheers for letting me know about it ill be objecting to another waste of money.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,997 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    tunney wrote: »
    Less O/T for the court appearances though.
    given the court appearances would be in 9-5 weekday hours, is there much O/T to be earned from them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,937 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    given the court appearances would be in 9-5 weekday hours, is there much O/T to be earned from them?
    If it falls on rostered time off. (While the courts may work 9-5 Mon-Fri, the majority of Gardai don't).


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,561 ✭✭✭Eamonnator


    If it falls on rostered time off. (While the courts may work 9-5 Mon-Fri, the majority of Gardai don't).

    I think, nowadays, nearly all court appearances are scheduled for rostered working days. I don't think Gardai get much, if any O/T for court appearances.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,730 ✭✭✭Type 17


    Cyclists are to be allow to go through red lights in Paris: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33446899

    They are allowed to turn right (same as left for Irl/UK traffic) and go straight through on the side of T-junctions.

    From the article:
    "Tests held in 2012 found that allowing the cyclists to move more freely cut down the chances of collisions with cars, including accidents involving the car's blind spot.
    ...
    Despite the move, cyclists would not have priority on the roads and must cede to pedestrians and other road users where necessary."


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭galwaycyclist


    Does anyone here have examples of traffic lights that will not change for someone on a bicycle? There is a series of junctions in Galway that have been designed in a way that means they cannot detect, or change for, cyclists. There are other junctions where there are sensor loops but they dont pick up bikes. In both situations the lights will only change if a car etc comes along that happens to be going the same direction.

    Anyone have similar examples from other towns?


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,161 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Does anyone here have examples of traffic lights that will not change for someone on a bicycle? There is a series of junctions in Galway that have been designed in a way that means they cannot detect, or change for, cyclists. There are other junctions where there are sensor loops but they dont pick up bikes. In both situations the lights will only change if a car etc comes along that happens to be going the same direction.

    Anyone have similar examples from other towns?

    Stephens green headed for Earlsfort Terrace in Dublin. The next junction on the loop is super sensitive(its great) but at the corner with Lesson Street you could sit there for 2hrs and the f'cker wouldnt activate. Have to wait for bus heading straight(really rare off peak) to trigger it for you, or use the ped light.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    Does anyone here have examples of traffic lights that will not change for someone on a bicycle? There is a series of junctions in Galway that have been designed in a way that means they cannot detect, or change for, cyclists. There are other junctions where there are sensor loops but they dont pick up bikes. In both situations the lights will only change if a car etc comes along that happens to be going the same direction.

    Anyone have similar examples from other towns?

    Exiting Beechwood Court onto the N11 in Stillorgan is one anyway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 874 ✭✭✭alentejo


    ED E wrote: »
    Stephens green headed for Earlsfort Terrace in Dublin. The next junction on the loop is super sensitive(its great) but at the corner with Lesson Street you could sit there for 2hrs and the f'cker wouldnt activate. Have to wait for bus heading straight(really rare off peak) to trigger it for you, or use the ped light.

    Yup - Have noted this junction. Going from Stephens Green East towards Earlsford Ter, it is amazing how little traffic uses this route now that buses are routed via Camden St. Anyhow, had to cross at the pedestrial crossing phase of the lights. Not good


  • Registered Users Posts: 638 ✭✭✭LpPepper


    Does anyone here have examples of traffic lights that will not change for someone on a bicycle? There is a series of junctions in Galway that have been designed in a way that means they cannot detect, or change for, cyclists. There are other junctions where there are sensor loops but they dont pick up bikes. In both situations the lights will only change if a car etc comes along that happens to be going the same direction.

    Anyone have similar examples from other towns?

    To be honest in Dublin there's probably so many of these I can't even say how many are like this - very frustrating. Poor infrastructure.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,757 ✭✭✭cython


    ED E wrote: »
    Stephens green headed for Earlsfort Terrace in Dublin. The next junction on the loop is super sensitive(its great) but at the corner with Lesson Street you could sit there for 2hrs and the f'cker wouldnt activate. Have to wait for bus heading straight(really rare off peak) to trigger it for you, or use the ped light.

    Actually, I have found that sometimes if a left-turning bus gets caught by the lights early enough (e.g. it arrives on ped green), then that can also trigger the straight light. If it arrives late in the ped phase though, then no dice. It's odd, but as a result I tend to wait in the former scenario, but otherwise I'll wait until the biggest throngs of pedestrians have passed, and I'll cross at near-walking speed, yielding to any pedestrians I may encounter.

    Not sure if I'll continue to do this come July 31st though, as given the issue with this junction, Gardai could be out there looking to shoot fish in a barrel, even if just to make a point.

    The really frustrating thing about this particular one though, is that there are junctions near where I live in Dublin 15 that can trigger for a bike, but while this junction was redesigned in the last year or 2, including dedicating a lane and advanced stop line for cyclists proceeding straight, they gave no though to the trivial matter of accommodating cyclists in the bloody traffic lights!!! No joined up thinking whatsoever.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭check_six


    cython wrote: »
    ... but otherwise I'll wait until the biggest throngs of pedestrians have passed, and I'll cross at near-walking speed, yielding to any pedestrians I may encounter.

    You...! You monster! Some poor harmless murderer is languishing in a cell while you are free to carry on like this. The horror!

    I see loads of induction loops on my travels in Dublin. Some will leave you out of the sequence altogether unless you trigger them like the one coming from Bath Ave onto Grand Canal St. Some will leave out the filter light like Haddington Road westbound onto Northumberland Road. Saw a car stopped way into the cyclist box (beyond the loop) there this morning that managed to fail to trigger the filter to much confusion. Some change eventually, but are really slow unless you trigger them, some never change at all. The one on the Leeson St bus lane that goes past Pembroke St doesn't trigger unless there is a bus there. There was a sideroad off Merrion Road that barely triggered when you were in the car never mind the bike.

    So, in summary, there are loads of those loop things around the place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    I was just thinking, they really should have added a more substantial fine for people cycling on the motorway. Happened again this morning on the M7. No excuse whatsoever for that.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 47,997 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Deedsie wrote: »
    No excuse whatsoever for that.
    how about the excuse that they're the safest roads to travel on!


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,272 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    how about the excuse that they're the safest roads to travel on!

    For cars? Motorway is not designed for cyclists. No business on it at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Does anyone here have examples of traffic lights that will not change for someone on a bicycle? There is a series of junctions in Galway that have been designed in a way that means they cannot detect, or change for, cyclists. There are other junctions where there are sensor loops but they dont pick up bikes. In both situations the lights will only change if a car etc comes along that happens to be going the same direction.

    Anyone have similar examples from other towns?

    The new lights at Taylors Three Rock beside Marlay Park were installed in the last year or so, and don't trigger for cyclists coming down from Three Rock (a fairly popular cycling destination).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,519 ✭✭✭ozzy jr


    ED E wrote: »
    Stephens green headed for Earlsfort Terrace in Dublin. The next junction on the loop is super sensitive(its great) but at the corner with Lesson Street you could sit there for 2hrs and the f'cker wouldnt activate. Have to wait for bus heading straight(really rare off peak) to trigger it for you, or use the ped light.

    I emailed the council about this in January and they told me they would look into it. 2 months later nothing had happened so I emailed them again. Here's the reply I got,
    The ITS (Intelligent Transportations Systems Section) Officer reports that the ITS Section is aware of this issue, and this junction is on a works programme to be upgraded. This upgrade will include bicycle detection for cyclists travelling from St. Stephens Green to Earlsfort Terrace in order to address the issue raised. However, for traffic management reasons the civil engineering works required for this upgrade cannot be implemented until the current phase of the construction works for the development on the corner of Earlsfort Terrace and St. Stephens Green have been completed. This construction project is for a private development, and is outside the control of Dublin City Council, so a timeframe for the junction improvements is unfortunately not currently available.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 378 ✭✭Einstein?


    So has anyone actually been fined?:rolleyes:


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