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Ben Affleck vs. Sam Harris & Bill Maher on Real Time

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    #122
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Nodin wrote: »



    Bit of a chancer. Given the elements she hangs round with in the states, she wouldn't be on my Christmas list either.

    Can you elaborate on why she is a chancer or do you just dismiss out of hand everyone's opinion that does not confirm to your world view. I would say she is well qualified to speak on the dangers of religions and Islam especially given the upbringing she had. If she was a white, blond girl everyone would be calling her a racist.:rolleyes:


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    #123
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Has Sam Harris said anything about Islam the we would have wished to but were unable to express about Catholicism in 1950/60's Ireland ?

    Fairly sure I never thought to call them uniquely evil, all catholic majority countries reacting on religious grounds to events and not on political grounds, mentioning catholic atrocities while conveniently forgetting others....I mean I would if I was a certain recently departed Reverend, but not as I'm me, no.


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    #124
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    Can you elaborate on why she is a chancer or do you just dismiss out of hand everyone's opinion that does not confirm to your world view. I would say she is well qualified to speak on the dangers of religions and Islam especially given the upbringing she had. If she was a white, blond girl everyone would be calling her a racist.:rolleyes:

    Sorry? Where did I call her a racist?

    She is a chancer because there is no small doubt about her story. She also seems to take a hard line on illegal immigrants when she arrived in the states, which is rather amusing, given her own efforts in the Netherlands. One might wonder whether or not this was adopted to please her new neo conservative American friends in the "American Enterprise Insitute".


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    #125
    Michael OBrien
    Registered Users Posts: 533 ✭✭✭Michael OBrien


    Nodin wrote: »
    You were reasonable up to this.....

    Ye see, its the above kind of fear mongering crap that really gets down. There are over a Billion muslims. They are, the majority of them, clearly not disposed as you would have them.

    Ahh yes. No muslim baiter has ever, ever thrown that at me before. Not a one. And no way would somebody ever keep on with 'But you haven't read the Koran...' to give themselves an assumed authority.

    So asking you to read the book you are defending, and saying I have, is giving me assumed authority? Any person that is arguing about any book would be perfectly right in asking his opponent to read the book in question.
    This is like asking someone to read Genesis when arguing Creationism vs Astronomy and Biology. If the person who has not read it constantly defends it as being perfectly compatible with science but refuses to read it, where do you go from there?

    There may well be over a billion muslims, and I bet if you questioned ANY of them, provided they are practising muslims, they will tell you that they don't doubt the quran and they believe Muhammed was the true messenger of god.
    There are plenty of mass going christians that are wonderfully peaceful that will still tell you that its your fault for not believing in god that sends you to hell. Just because they are peaceful does not mean they don't believe horrible stuff, they just don't act on it. The source of this stuff is the quran.

    As far as the 3 exceptions to the rule for lying goes I get that from MUSLIM apologetic sites that seek to counter christian sites saying Muslims are allowed to lie all the time.

    But hey, if conspiracies are your thing, and you never fact check then what is the point.

    There are a lot of western muslims that are nominally muslim, many never read the quran fully, or the hadiths. Of course if they never read these texts they are going to not act on them. They say the Shahada, occassionally attend a mosque and that's it, like the majority of christians in Ireland pray for silly things, go to mass on holidays and still call themselves christian.
    There are plenty in even muslim countries that toe the line for appearance sake but don't take it seriously. Good for them. But you cannot use them as a litmus test for Islam anymore than you can use such christians as demonstrations of christianity's text.


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    #126
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Fairly sure I never thought to call them uniquely evil, all catholic majority countries reacting on religious grounds to events and not on political grounds, mentioning catholic atrocities while conveniently forgetting others....I mean I would if I was a certain recently departed Reverend, but not as I'm me, no.

    So if we use exactly the same language in discussing and/or condemning any and all religions then we are on the right track , would than be correct ?

    For example if I were to say that the Magdalene Laundries and the oppression of women could not have happened in Ireland for over 40 years without at least the tacit acceptance of the state and the population ?

    Would that be a fair statement ?


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    #127
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    jank wrote: »
    Can you elaborate on why she is a chancer or do you just dismiss out of hand everyone's opinion that does not confirm to your world view. I would say she is well qualified to speak on the dangers of religions and Islam especially given the upbringing she had..
    Her (real name Magan) hysterical and invented upbringing?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbxP8Uys8kc


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    #128
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    Having slightly different intelligence across the global human demographics is not racism or bigotry. If it is true, then it is simply a scientific observation. If its false then its something that can be disproven and also a valid point as it allows for it to be discredited. An 'ought' is not necessarily derived from an 'is'.
    Assuming that there are inferior races is textbook racism I am afraid and is one of the staples of white supremacists. It is simply Harris backing up a fellow racist.


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    #129
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Standman wrote: »
    You may be mistaken there. I have read his blog posts about the issue and I can't find any mention of racially profiling Arabs. Do you have a link to where he stated that?
    Im hesitant to link to a racist's and Islamophobe's site but here you go: In Defense of Profiling : Sam Harris


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    #130
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Assuming that there are inferior races is textbook racism I am afraid and is one of the staples of white supremacists. It is simply Harris backing up a fellow racist.

    This is not what Harris said , read the full article. But you already know this . There are only about 20 posters that contribute to these threads and we could have a really interesting discussion if we treat each other at face value and drop the right at all costs /not give an inch approach.


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    #131
    Snake Plisken
    Registered Users Posts: 12,431 ✭✭✭✭Snake Plisken


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Im hesitant to link to a racist's and Islamophobe's site but here you go: In Defense of Profiling : Sam Harris

    Wow pot calling the kettle black with the anti-Jewish tone of some of your posts! Back on topic Sam and Bill were just giving their opinion on the topic, Ben didn't want to know and wouldn't listen to what Sam had to say!


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    #132
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    marienbad wrote: »
    This is not what Harris said , read the full article. But you already know this . There are only about 20 posters that contribute to these threads and we could have a really interesting discussion if we treat each other at face value and drop the right at all costs /not give an inch approach.
    I make no apologies for not giving a freepass to a bloodthirsty warmonger who oozes bigotry and exceptionalism from every Zionist pore.



    This is how I paraphrased:


    "-- In terms of "intelligence" --"


    Watson's claim via Harris:
    " that people of African descent appear to be innately less intelligent than white Europeans. "


    Me:
    "that "he (Sam Harris) would be surprised if there were no differences found between the races". "


    Harris:
    " it would, in fact, be very surprising if there were no differences (in intelligence) between racial or ethnic groups waiting to be discovered."


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    #133
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Mod:
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It is simply Harris backing up a fellow racist.
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Im hesitant to link to a racist's and Islamophobe's site [...]
    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I make no apologies for not giving a freepass to a bloodthirsty warmonger who oozes bigotry and exceptionalism from every Zionist pore.
    Last chance BB.

    You were warned twice yesterday about your ongoing failure to discuss things calmly. If you continue to post in a a manner which the moderators judge to be inflammatory, you will be carded, then, for a subsequent instance, you will be banned.


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    #134
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Michael OBrien wrote: »
    So asking you to read the book you are defending, and saying I have, is giving me assumed (..............)the line for appearance sake but don't take it seriously. Good for them. But you cannot use them as a litmus test for Islam anymore than you can use such christians as demonstrations of christianity's text.

    You might exclude internet fora while you're at it.


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    #135
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    So if we use exactly the same language in discussing and/or condemning any and all religions then we are on the right track , would than be correct ?

    For example if I were to say that the Magdalene Laundries and the oppression of women could not have happened in Ireland for over 40 years without at least the tacit acceptance of the state and the population ?

    Would that be a fair statement ?


    If you want to have a go at Islam, please stop the fiddling about and get on with it.


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    #136
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Assuming that there are inferior races is textbook racism I am afraid and is one of the staples of white supremacists. It is simply Harris backing up a fellow racist.

    I was hoping to avoid being sucked in, but it has to be said that Harris, though low in my estimation, is no racist.


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    #137
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    If you want to have a go at Islam, please stop the fiddling about and get on with it.

    Can you answer the question ?


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    #138
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Can you answer the question ?

    I won't. The reason I won't is because when I answer yes, you will say 'Just like Islamic countries x,y,z occurs with the tacit approval...' when there is not necessarily a clear parallel between the two. If you're going to have a go, just go ahead and do it. I'll either agree or I won't.


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    #139
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    I won't. The reason I won't is because when I answer yes, you will say 'Just like Islamic countries x,y,z occurs with the tacit approval...' when there is not necessarily a clear parallel between the two. If you're going to have a go, just go ahead and do it. I'll either agree or I won't.

    I may or may not do that, but should it matter ? If there is not a clear parallel can you illustrate it ?


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    #140
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    I may or may not do that, but should it matter ? If there is not a clear parallel can you illustrate it ?

    I'm not getting dragged into this. If you think you can come up with a few legitimate issues with Islam (can't be that difficult) just fire them out there and forget about the Trick Question Championships.


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    #141
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    I'm not getting dragged into this. If you think you can come up with a few legitimate issues with Islam (can't be that difficult) just fire them out there and forget about the Trick Question Championships.

    A come on Nodin , these are not trick questions , it is just trying to set equal parameters . You said it yourself just above re Sam Harris not being racist.

    And you have said it many many times on Israel/Palestinian issues , that it is too easy to play the anti-Semite racist card to stifle debate.

    Well there is an element of racist card at play in this discussion also.

    I believe we should be able to talk about all religions from the Dalai Lama to Pope Francis and their impact on our society without fear or favour. Same rules for all

    Do you dis-agree ?


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    #142
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    A come on Nodin , these are not trick questions , it is just trying to set equal parameters . You said it yourself just above re Sam Harris not being racist.

    And you have said it many many times on Israel/Palestinian issues , that it is too easy to play the anti-Semite racist card to stifle debate.

    Well there is an element of racist card at play in this discussion also.

    I believe we should be able to talk about all religions from the Dalai Lama to Pope Francis and their impact on our society without fear or favour. Same rules for all

    Do you dis-agree ?

    No. I just won't be drawn in the manner previously described.


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    #143
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    No. I just won't be drawn in the manner previously described.


    Make discussion kind of pointless then if you just want to critique others and never proffer you own view .


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    #144
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Make discussion kind of pointless then if you just want to critique others and never proffer you own view .

    ?

    I'm perfectly willing to put out my own view. I'm just not willing to do so by agreeing and disagreeing with suggested metaphors comparsions and other such nonsense. This is getting odd.


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    #145
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    ?

    I'm perfectly willing to put out my own view. I'm just not willing to do so by agreeing and disagreeing with suggested metaphors comparsions and other such nonsense. This is getting odd.

    Ok then , do you think there is a problem with violent fundamentalism within the Islamic world ?


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    #146
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    Ok then , do you think there is a problem with violent fundamentalism within the Islamic world ?

    Yep. Fairly obviously.


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    #147
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yep. Fairly obviously.

    Well , we agree on that then !!


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    #148
    Standman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,681 ✭✭✭Standman


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Im hesitant to link to a racist's and Islamophobe's site but here you go: In Defense of Profiling : Sam Harris

    There is not even a single mention of Arabs in the above link. Shouldn't need to be said, but Muslim =/= Arab. You might say "Ah, but we all know what he really means when he says we should profile Muslims", but again this would be another example of the cynical, illogical view that many people seem to have of Harris' opinions & motives.


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    #149
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Yep. Fairly obviously.

    This Harris's basic point and justification for it being found within the sacred writings of Islam.

    Just as the war on LGBT rights by Christian fundamentalists in the US is justified by their holy writings and the behaviour of the Catholic church in Ireland in the 50's was bolstered by their interpretations

    But we can say it about Born Agains and Catholics etc but not against Islam and we get all warm and fuzzy about the Dalai Lama !


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    #150
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    marienbad wrote: »
    This Harris's basic point and justification for it being found within the sacred writings of Islam.

    Just as the war on LGBT rights by Christian fundamentalists in the US is justified by their holy writings and the behaviour of the Catholic church in Ireland in the 50's was bolstered by their interpretations

    But we can say it about Born Agains and Catholics etc but not against Islam and we get all warm and fuzzy about the Dalai Lama !

    Unfortunately when you read through Harris proclamations on the matter, it gets rather more nasty, agenda laden and - quite frankly - bigoted than that. You might note some of the quotes I put up earlier in the thread.


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    #151
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Nodin wrote: »
    Unfortunately when you read through Harris proclamations on the matter, it gets rather more nasty, agenda laden and - quite frankly - bigoted than that. You might note some of the quotes I put up earlier in the thread.

    I don't think it is more nasty than that Nodin. While I don't agree with everything Harris says , but he is one of those writers whose articles must be taken in totality and individual quotations can easily give a different impression

    His most basic point is the there is a violent nature to fundamental Islam that is given justification by its core sacred writings .And correctly so.

    And unless and until moderate Islam and the Liberal West accepts this then we have a problem


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