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Census 2016 - Time to tick NO

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Absolam wrote: »
    I think it's fair to say that you've done your best to give the impression that people who don't conform to what you think Catholics should be ought not to be ticking Catholic on a census, don't you? And that there are 'consequences' for doing so. So I agree, you're not going around houses twisting arms, but you're not exactly not trying to pressure people to go along with you either are you?
    For instance these 'clear implications' which you're not exactly making clear; since we don't know what they might be perhaps we should do out bit to ensure a very high percentage of the population doesn't identify as a single religion. Just in case? NO pressure though.

    How am I trying to pressure people exactly? By stating my personal opinions on an atheist forum to other atheists?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,104 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Absolam wrote: »
    I think it's fair to say that you've done your best to give the impression that people who don't conform to what you think Catholics should be ought not to be ticking Catholic on a census, don't you?

    Not sure what this means, but nobody's suggesting Catholics tick 'No Religion' in the census. What's being suggested is that people who no longer identify as Catholic and who no longer have any religious affiliation tick No.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,943 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Maybe we should be campaigning for the religion question to be removed from the census altogether? Can anyone suggest why this would not be a good idea?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    It's a dreadfully awful threatening thing all together to the RCC and it's supporters, when people are asked to think, reflect and consider their true position it seems!
    Is it as threatening as the awesome 'consequences' and dreadful 'implications' of believing things Kiwi finds incredible?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    How am I trying to pressure people exactly? By stating my personal opinions on an atheist forum to other atheists?
    But setting forward the notion that there are consequences and implications to not doing what you say. I thought you made that bit fairly clear to be honest.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,104 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    looksee wrote: »
    Maybe we should be campaigning for the religion question to be removed from the census altogether? Can anyone suggest why this would not be a good idea?

    Ireland would return to being 95% Catholic (i.e. a de facto Catholic state) and certain groupings would use this to argue against secularism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,063 ✭✭✭Kiwi in IE


    Absolam wrote: »
    Is it as threatening as the awesome 'consequences' and dreadful 'implications' of believing things Kiwi finds incredible?

    Are your kids told by their teachers in school that God doesn't really exist and that Christianity is comparable to Greek Mythology. No I thought not! And nor should they be. But nor should the children of non Christian parents be told in a state funded school that Christianity is fact, in a secular republic that constitutionally does not endorse any religion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,943 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Absolam wrote: »
    Oooh... I'm on tenterhooks! In what way are they using the figures? If it's important, I really want to know. Tell us.

    That's what I am hoping you can tell us, if the figures are not used why are we concerned about them? And if the figures are not used then it will not matter to the RC church if people's information is a bit more reflective of the actual situation in the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Not sure what this means, but nobody's suggesting Catholics tick 'No Religion' in the census. What's being suggested is that people who no longer identify as Catholic and who no longer have any religious affiliation tick No.
    Actually, what I think is being suggested is that people who identify as Catholic should reconsider how they identify on the census if they don't conform to Kiwis notion of Catholicism, lest there be consequences and implications.

    To go back to the start of the thread; Zamboni specifically said his facebook page is targeted at all the cultural Catholics who don't really practice anymore; cultural Catholics do identify as Catholics. It's why they're called cultural Catholics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Kiwi in IE wrote: »
    Are your kids told by their teachers in school that God doesn't really exist and that Christianity is comparable to Greek Mythology. No I thought not! And nor should they be. But nor should the children of non Christian parents be told in a state funded school that Christianity is fact, in a secular republic that constitutionally does not endorse any religion.
    I don't think you've demonstrated that these are consequences or implications of census results though. Well, not to put to fine a point on it, you absolutely haven't demonstrated it.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,770 ✭✭✭The Randy Riverbeast


    Absolam wrote: »
    Actually, what I think is being suggested is that people who identify as Catholic should reconsider how they identify on the census if they don't conform to Kiwis notion of Catholicism, lest there be consequences and implications.

    To go back to the start of the thread; Zamboni specifically said his facebook page is targeted at all the cultural Catholics who don't really practice anymore; cultural Catholics do identify as Catholics. It's why they're called cultural Catholics.

    Then they will continue to put themselves down as Catholic. Dawkins sake, nobody will be forced to do anything they don't want. Have no idea where this panic is coming from.


  • Registered Users Posts: 35,523 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    RossieMan wrote: »
    Would you not go behind a cause that is important rather than this crap? Who gives a ****?
    Yes, because once someone goes behind a cause, they are not allowed to go behind any other cause, that's a fantastic point.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    looksee wrote: »
    That's what I am hoping you can tell us, if the figures are not used why are we concerned about them? And if the figures are not used then it will not matter to the RC church if people's information is a bit more reflective of the actual situation in the country.
    Why are you waiting for me to tell you? Let's see...
    I asked for some specifics on how precisely does the Catholic Church bolster it's position using the census.
    Your reply was "Ok how about this specific, why does the government want to know what religion everyone is, unless they are going to use those figures in some way.".
    Now I know... you missed the mark a bit. That's obviously not a specific way the Catholic Church is bolstering it's position using the census. But benefit of the doubt and all... you obviously think you're on to something. But why are you hoping I can tell you what nefarious uses this information is being put to, when it's yourself and the likes of Zamboni imagining those uses?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Then they will continue to put themselves down as Catholic. Dawkins sake, nobody will be forced to do anything they don't want. Have no idea where this panic is coming from.
    I'm not sure there's really any panic as such. I'd see it more as a discussion to be honest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    What possible reason is there to try to derail a campaign to fill out a census form accurately. If they are practicing Catholics who believe in Catholic dogma and adhere faithfully to Catholic moral teaching surely they would have no difficulty in proudly saying yes I believe in virgin imoregnation by the Holy Spirit, the incarnation, transubstantiation, the hypo static Union, the assumption into heaven, confession, resurrection etc etc. I cannot understand any motivation for objecting to a campaign to get people to tell the truth except that to some the truth is to be feared.


  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    except that to some the truth is to be feared.

    Indeed, Christ was crucified for telling the truth.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,739 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    That's a non sequitur. Ruairi Quinn gave parents the choice in schools which ethos they wished to retain. A significant proportion of them chose to retain their school as Catholic.

    in most places he hasn't given them a choice of school


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    Indeed, Christ was crucified for telling the truth.

    As you seem to genuinely believe that isn't it all the more reason for his followers to encourage truth telling.


  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    As you seem to genuinely believe that isn't it all the more reason for his followers to encourage truth telling.

    The problem is, whether we like it or not, many people see Catholic/Christian as so many different things, and many have decided to define what Catholic/Christian is for themselves, so claiming they are not telling the truth, about what they think is Catholic, is not actually true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    La Fenetre wrote: »
    The problem is, whether we like it or not, many people see Catholic/Christian as so many different things, and many have decided to define what Catholic/Christian is for themselves, so claiming they are not telling the truth, about what they think is Catholic, is not actually true.

    Ah. If the term has become effectively beyond definition then the census are wrong to even ask the question in a simple catch all manner.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    What possible reason is there to try to derail a campaign to fill out a census form accurately.
    I can't think of any at all. I can think of a few for pointing out that telling people they shouldn't fill out a census form in accordance with their own opinions is somewhat disingenuous though.
    Fleawuss wrote: »
    If they are practicing Catholics who believe in Catholic dogma and adhere faithfully to Catholic moral teaching surely they would have no difficulty in proudly saying yes I believe in virgin imoregnation by the Holy Spirit, the incarnation, transubstantiation, the hypo static Union, the assumption into heaven, confession, resurrection etc etc. I cannot understand any motivation for objecting to a campaign to get people to tell the truth except that to some the truth is to be feared.
    Sure we don't need to go nearly that far at all! If they want to say they are Catholic they should do so. Regardless of whether other people think they fit the criteria or not.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,650 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato
    Restaurant at the End of the Universe


    lazygal wrote: »
    Its a view someone else I know had reinforced by a census enumerator, who when asked said if you're a baptised Catholic you have to tick Catholic on the census.

    I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone (and I don't mean the CSO) is putting them up to this. It's a bizarre interpretation, but if you regard getting the figures up as god's work...

    La Fenetre wrote: »
    They do ? How ? The state and all the main political parties are anti-church.

    You must be joking.
    For starters the state is illegally using taxpayers' money to fund religious instruction in schools, and third level chaplains, in violation of Article 44.2 of the Constitution.
    2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

    There is no political party proposing to change this.

    And the next subsection
    3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

    is violated by allowing 96% of primary schools to be religious run and to discriminate on the grounds of religion in both enrolment and hiring staff.

    We also have a suspected mass murder / illegal burial site in Tuam (and other places), a crime scene where no investigation is being done. If it was some non-religious organisation suspected of this, the response would be very different indeed.

    looksee wrote: »
    Maybe we should be campaigning for the religion question to be removed from the census altogether? Can anyone suggest why this would not be a good idea?

    We won't get to watch religion fall off a cliff over the next 20 years.

    It took a while but I don't mind. How does my body look in this light?



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Absolam wrote: »
    How precisely does the Catholic Church bolster it's position using the census? Could we try for a few specifics maybe?
    Sole supplier of chaplains to many third level state institutions, for example.
    The Minister for Education and Skills, Jan O’Sullivan TD, has told the Dáil that in respect of hiring for publicly funded chaplain roles, Institutes of Technology in Ireland may be in a “sole supplier situation”.
    Also, why are there so many priests as ex-officio governors of the National Maternity Hospital? What do priests know about women's health and human reproduction?
    Ex-officio means these "experts" are appointed by virtue of their office (within the church hierarchy). How exactly is that relevant to the job of governing the national maternity hospital?

    All of this stuff is based on the assumption that we live in a catholic country. Even if 100% of people were practising members of RCC, that still would not be true, because this is republic which supposedly does not endow religion. But CSO statistics still have a role to play in either challenging or justifying the assumption that the vast majority of the population are sheep, and RCC are the official state shepherds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,104 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Absolam wrote: »
    I can't think of any at all. I can think of a few for pointing out that telling people they shouldn't fill out a census form in accordance with their own opinions is somewhat disingenuous though.

    Not true, though. Just reflect on it (for a minute).

    Aren't you lot mad on reflecting?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭Fleawuss


    Absolam wrote: »
    I can't think of any at all. I can think of a few for pointing out that telling people they shouldn't fill out a census form in accordance with their own opinions is somewhat disingenuous though.

    Sure we don't need to go nearly that far at all! If they want to say they are Catholic they should do so. Regardless of whether other people think they fit the criteria or not.

    Wow. Being Catholic is now a matter of opinion? Has the RCC abandoned its sacraments of initiation? Why all the fuss at synod in Rome about communion for divorcees? Someone needs to write to the Congregation of the doctrine of the Faith in Rome to let them know that such generous heterodoxy has been proclaimed in time for the Irish census!


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone (and I don't mean the CSO) is putting them up to this. It's a bizarre interpretation, but if you regard getting the figures up as god's work...
    I suppose it's possible, even if there's no evidence for it. On the other hand, the CSOs own instructions on the question are:
    "The religions listed have been chosen to cover the most frequent responses given in the 2006 census. This question does not refer to frequency of attendance at church. People should respond to this question according to how they feel now about their religious beliefs or lack thereof."
    You must be joking.
    For starters the state is illegally using taxpayers' money to fund religious instruction in schools, and third level chaplains, in violation of Article 44.2 of the Constitution. There is no political party proposing to change this. And the next subsection is violated by allowing 96% of primary schools to be religious run and to discriminate on the grounds of religion in both enrolment and hiring staff.
    And yet not a single court case based on these 'illegal' actions has ever been successfully taken. Bizarre... almost as if weren't actually illegal at all.
    We also have a suspected mass murder / illegal burial site in Tuam (and other places), a crime scene where no investigation is being done. If it was some non-religious organisation suspected of this, the response would be very different indeed.
    That really smacks more of a conspiracy theory than an objection to how people choose to fill in census forms in fairness....


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    recedite wrote: »
    Sole supplier of chaplains [/URL]to many third level state institutions, for example.
    How is that based on the census?
    recedite wrote: »
    Also, why are there so many priests as ex-officio governors of the National Maternity Hospital? What do priests know about women's health and human reproduction?
    Ex-officio means these "experts" are appointed by virtue of their office (within the church hierarchy). How exactly is that relevant to the job of governing the national maternity hospital?
    That's a great question. A better one is; what does it have to do with the Census? Do you have any information that specifically relates the appointment of ex-officio governers on the board of Holles St to the Census, or are you speculating that there is some nebulous connection somewhere?
    recedite wrote: »
    All of this stuff is based on the assumption that we live in a catholic country. Even if 100% of people were practising members of RCC, that still would not be true, because this is republic which supposedly does not endow religion. But CSO statistics still have a role to play in either challenging or justifying the assumption that the vast majority of the population are sheep, and RCC are the official state shepherds.
    Well, yes your speculations are based on your assumptions. What I was asking about was specific examples of how the Catholic Church bolsters it's position using the census. Speculations based on assumptions fall a fair bit short.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Pherekydes wrote: »
    Not true, though. Just reflect on it (for a minute). Aren't you lot mad on reflecting?
    I think it is?

    It's disingenuous to tell someone they should fill out the form in accordance with your opinion if you object to how they fill it out being in accordance with someone elses opinion rather than their own. For instance, telling them they shouldn't say they're catholics because their opinion of what a catholic is doesn't match what someone elses opinion is, so they should fill in your opinion, despite it not being what their opinion is.

    Telling people how they should behave because you are objecting to other people telling you how you should behave is disingenuous.

    There's two, just off the cuff as it were. So; perfectly true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Fleawuss wrote: »
    Wow. Being Catholic is now a matter of opinion? Has the RCC abandoned its sacraments of initiation? Why all the fuss at synod in Rome about communion for divorcees? Someone needs to write to the Congregation of the doctrine of the Faith in Rome to let them know that such generous heterodoxy has been proclaimed in time for the Irish census!
    I'm certainly not offering an opinion on what it is to be Catholic (at the moment). Only that there's no reason your opinion on what it is to be Catholic should have any bearing on whether someone else should choose to call themselves Catholic if they wish.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭La Fenetre


    I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone (and I don't mean the CSO) is putting them up to this. It's a bizarre interpretation, but if you regard getting the figures up as god's work...




    You must be joking.
    For starters the state is illegally using taxpayers' money to fund religious instruction in schools, and third level chaplains, in violation of Article 44.2 of the Constitution.



    There is no political party proposing to change this.

    And the next subsection



    is violated by allowing 96% of primary schools to be religious run and to discriminate on the grounds of religion in both enrolment and hiring staff.

    We also have a suspected mass murder / illegal burial site in Tuam (and other places), a crime scene where no investigation is being done. If it was some non-religious organisation suspected of this, the response would be very different indeed.




    We won't get to watch religion fall off a cliff over the next 20 years.

    Take it to the courts and tell us how you get on


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