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A "no timetable" service for DB

  • 03-09-2011 12:18pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭


    After looking through the Network Direct changes a few weeks ago, I jotted down all of the bus routes that will have an off-peak frequency of 15 minutes or better. Things may have changed a bit since, but it's likely still practically the same. There may have been a few I've missed out depending on how to consider an XXa/b type of service.

    4
    7
    13
    15
    16
    25a/b
    27
    29
    39a
    40
    46a
    79
    128
    145

    Imo these would count as "super-routes" as people like to say. They imply an average wait of less than 8 minutes throughout the day, which to me is a "no timetable" service. The Luas and the Dart's success can largely be attributed to a reliable service -- I don't know of anybody who needs to consult a timetable outside of very early morning or very late evening. I'm not sure if DB have had this kind of high-frequency routing before (46a...), but either way this list of routes should almost have a route-diagram of their own. They cover a large part of the city, and if properly advertised could really boost ridership as a little network unto themselves.

    In Los Angeles not too long ago, the city pulished a map of bus routes with 15 minute frequencies or more only. Here it is (light rail / subway included btw): http://www.metro.net/riding_metro/maps/images/15_min_map.gif

    Anecdotally, I know of a lot of people (myself included) who have a bus service within a 3 minute walk but who would rather walk up to 15 minutes to take the Luas because it's reliable and frequent.

    Anyway, I guess I just wanted to post the list of super-routes if others were interested.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    The issue is expanding the AVLS / RTPI, such that services can avoid bunching and that people can see that they aren't bunching.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,419 ✭✭✭Cool Mo D


    There's also the 9, 83, 140 which are every 15 minutes during the day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Colm R


    What are the chances that the do some sort of renumbering of routes. If you consider these routes to be sort of 'super routes' could they implement some sort of numbering system that makes it easier to follow.

    Say double digit for super routes and triple digits for local or feeder routers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Aard wrote: »
    .....

    Imo these would count as "super-routes" as people like to say. They imply an average wait of less than 8 minutes throughout the day, which to me is a "no timetable" service. The Luas and the Dart's success can largely be attributed to a reliable service -- I don't know of anybody who needs to consult a timetable outside of very early morning or very late evening.
    Berlin rebranded such "super routes" as Metro busses and overnight boosted the ridership by simply identifying these routes as priority high frequency routes.

    Munich did the same 2 or 3 years ago impressed by the success of the Berlin branding as part of a COMPLETE reworking and re numbering of ALL bus routes.
    I dont think any bus kept its old number and very few busses their complete original route path, and all this done overnight rather than straggled out like in Dublins network direct changes.
    In a city the size of Dublin theres dozens of regular city busses but only about a dozen Metro Routes - these Super Routes being 2 digit numbers (like the trams incidentally), every other local bus route/ non priority/ non frequent route a 3 digit number.

    The reliability and frequency means that now the Metro Bus is lumped in with the trams on the network maps.
    http://www.mvg-mobil.de/netzplaene/images/Tram-Metrobusnetz-2011.pdf

    When I first heard of Network direct it looked as if they were going down this path.
    Unfortunately the one big missing link, the renumbering and rebranding of superroutes hasnt happened and doesnt look like its ever going to happen.


  • Registered Users Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Colm R


    Berlin rebranded such "super routes" as Metro busses and overnight boosted the ridership by simply identifying these routes as priority high frequency routes.

    Munich did the same 2 or 3 years ago impressed by the success of the Berlin branding as part of a COMPLETE reworking and re numbering of ALL bus routes.
    I dont think any bus kept its old number and very few busses their complete original route path, and all this done overnight rather than straggled out like in Dublins network direct changes.
    In a city the size of Dublin theres dozens of regular city busses but only about a dozen Metro Routes - these Super Routes being 2 digit numbers (like the trams incidentally), every other local bus route/ non priority/ non frequent route a 3 digit number.

    The reliability and frequency means that now the Metro Bus is lumped in with the trams on the network maps.
    http://www.mvg-mobil.de/netzplaene/images/Tram-Metrobusnetz-2011.pdf

    When I first heard of Network direct it looked as if they were going down this path.
    Unfortunately the one big missing link, the renumbering and rebranding of superroutes hasnt happened and doesnt look like its ever going to happen.

    Interesting. In Munich and Berlin, do these buses stop at all bus stops on the way out of the center?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Aard wrote: »
    After looking through the Network Direct changes a few weeks ago, I jotted down all of the bus routes that will have an off-peak frequency of 15 minutes or better. Things may have changed a bit since, but it's likely still practically the same. There may have been a few I've missed out depending on how to consider an XXa/b type of service.

    4
    7
    13
    15
    16
    25a/b
    27
    29
    39a
    40
    46a
    79
    128
    145

    Imo these would count as "super-routes" as people like to say. They imply an average wait of less than 8 minutes throughout the day, which to me is a "no timetable" service. The Luas and the Dart's success can largely be attributed to a reliable service -- I don't know of anybody who needs to consult a timetable outside of very early morning or very late evening. I'm not sure if DB have had this kind of high-frequency routing before (46a...), but either way this list of routes should almost have a route-diagram of their own. They cover a large part of the city, and if properly advertised could really boost ridership as a little network unto themselves.

    In Los Angeles not too long ago, the city pulished a map of bus routes with 15 minute frequencies or more only. Here it is (light rail / subway included btw): http://www.metro.net/riding_metro/maps/images/15_min_map.gif

    Anecdotally, I know of a lot of people (myself included) who have a bus service within a 3 minute walk but who would rather walk up to 15 minutes to take the Luas because it's reliable and frequent.

    Anyway, I guess I just wanted to post the list of super-routes if others were interested.
    The 128 will be the 15!

    is that the 13 superroutes? It doesnt look right for some reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭KD345


    thomasj wrote: »
    The 128 will be the 15!

    is that the 13 superroutes? It doesnt look right for some reason.

    Under the original plans, the 140 was to run to Kiltipper, but this has now changed to Palmerston Park. The 54A is remaining as it currently is.

    I suppose you could count the 140 as a high frequency route.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    Colm R wrote: »
    Interesting. In Munich and Berlin, do these buses stop at all bus stops on the way out of the center?
    Munich and Berlin buses do a different job, and Dublin different again.

    Berlin buses compliment the rail links and provide crosstown connections that would require changes. So kindof like Dublin.

    Munich buses mainly avoid the centre as its nearly as congested as Dublin. The buses there mainly link suburban residental areas to shopping/ work areas but to get to town you will nearly always need to change onto a tram or underground or suburban train.
    The metro bus concept in Munich was to provide a backbone linking one main centre to the next, rather than taking tours of estates. But all stops are served on route, but through more direct routings theres consequently less stops and because the route gains in importance theres now more and more traffic light priority for these busses.

    Of course any solution for Dublin cannot be copied 1:1 from abroad but the idea of completely separating by branding/ identity a frequent direct high quality service which attracts passengers to walk/ cycle further to catch it.

    But without proper branding the existing good regular reliable services aka "super routes" wont have the drawing factor that the Luas or Dart has.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    thomasj wrote: »
    The 128 will be the 15!

    is that the 13 superroutes? It doesnt look right for some reason.

    As I said, I made this list a few weeks ago, just into a Notepad document. Maybe more than a month at this stage. No doubt I missed a few as it entailed going through all current bus routes (over 100 of them) and the many new pages of Network Direct. I'm sure I missed a few. I'd hope that others, like yourself, would post up any omissions. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Maybe once Network Direct is delivered this will follow?

    It wouldn't require a major rebrand. Busses can be branded yellow and pink instead of yellow and blue (like the Travel 90 tickets). Of course, using a standard numbering convention like two digits for super-routes and three for all others would make more sense as it wouldn't place any restrictions on fleet utilisation.

    I wouldn't be surprised if there is a plan there further down the line. Dublin Bus are light years ahead of the other CIE Group companies when it comes to service level.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭KD345


    AngryLips wrote: »
    Maybe once Network Direct is delivered this will follow?

    It wouldn't require a major rebrand. Busses can be branded yellow and pink instead of yellow and blue (like the Travel 90 tickets). Of course, using a standard numbering convention like two digits for super-routes and three for all others would make more sense as it wouldn't place any restrictions on fleet utilisation.

    We've already seen this happen in the 90s with rebranding buses (Cityswift/Imp), but it doesn't work practically. Buses get used on different routes and it creates confusion and dilutes the brand.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,797 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    KD345 wrote: »
    We've already seen this happen in the 90s with rebranding buses (Cityswift/Imp), but it doesn't work practically. Buses get used on different routes and it creates confusion and dilutes the brand.
    Branding the vehicle is one thing

    Branding the service is another.

    All berlin busses are yellow, but some are metro buses and some standard city buses. Same vehicle on both routes (abeit larger capacity etc)

    All Munich busses are blue, even ones ran by private operators. Same as Berlin the high frequency metro bus corridors have larger capacity vehicles and get the newest busses first, but to all intents and purposes theres no branding difference except the small board in the front bottom corner to tell you if its a metro or city bus
    (see here for an example : http://www.flickr.com/photos/woodpeckar/2803831692/ )

    The whole metro bus idea reduces getting around the city from dozens of routes to every obscure destination and estate to a mere dozen of the most important routes that are easily mapped and remembered, which in itsself draws more passengers and makes the frequency improvements/ late and early running even more viable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    The 13/a has been running at a bus every 15 minutes for some time, the network redirect chancers have been touting this as some sort of improvement under their regime, when in fact it will remain at the same frequency and just have a longer journey time.

    They're also very coy about what peak/off peak actually translates to on a clock :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭KD345


    Bambi wrote: »
    it will remain at the same frequency and just have a longer journey time.

    Surely the journey time is shorter and more direct between Ballymun and the city, as it's no longer lopping around Coultry and Sillogue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    For a person from coultry, shangan, sillogue or further afield is their journey time shorter now that they have to walk an extra ten minutes just to get to a bus stop? Nope.

    Now that the bus is going to be heading off out to clondalkin I can see wait times increasing if anything.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,986 ✭✭✭✭mikemac


    Numbering system in Dublin seems to be a mess.
    Maybe it developed organically over the decades

    Why not have something like Belfast

    Routes are numbered one to twelve and the routes off these get letters A,B and so on
    Map route
    If One goes north you know any of these buses go in that direction
    In Dublin it could be the 16 or the 27 or something else

    Any plans to do this?

    You are guaranteed letters in the papers about people fondly remembering the old bus routes but that's just nostalgia

    Simple is better
    Galway has something like this


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,177 ✭✭✭KD345


    Bambi wrote: »
    For a person from coultry, shangan, sillogue or further afield is their journey time shorter now that they have to walk an extra ten minutes just to get to a bus stop? Nope.

    Any time I've used the 13/13A it picked up little or no passengers doing the loop in either Coultry or Shangan. I'm not sure where you mean by further afield? The rest of the passengers will benefit from the more direct routing.
    Bambi wrote: »
    Now that the bus is going to be heading off out to clondalkin I can see wait times increasing if anything.

    Or maybe the timetable will work fine.

    Why would the 13 be any different to the 16/46A/123 etc.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    KD345 wrote: »
    Any time I've used the 13/13A it picked up little or no passengers doing the loop in either Coultry or Shangan.

    With good reason, that battle was lost when the 36/A went out of service. Most people will walk to the main road stop rather than wait risk waiting 30 minutes for a bus that might not show.


    Time will tell, I'm inconvenienced straight away by the routing to dame street but I'm willing to wait and see how it goes. The potential is there for DB to make a balls of it as usual though


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,671 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    How did a discussion about a timetable-less, high-frequency DB service on certain routes become a debate about a minor detour on one particular bus route through some neighbourhood most of us haven't even heard of?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    It seems that somebody has taken it upon themselves to make a map like the one I mentioned in the OP. It's not perfect (seems like a first draft from the comments), notable some typos and missing Luas stations, but hopefully these shortcomings will be rectified.

    And now if only Transport for Ireland / the NTA would get the finger out and produce one of their own...

    http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/dublin-rapid-transit-map-feedback-please/

    RapidTransportMap061112_more_fin-1024x859.jpg


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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,350 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Nice map.

    Create and promote these super routes, in conjunction with a flat fare (significantly cheaper with Leap card then cash) and put buses with three doors (actually used) on these super routes.

    Do all that and I honestly believe DB would see a massive increase in usage.

    Give people a service that is fast, simple to use and simple to understand and they will flock to it.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Nice map and all but that's an abuse of the term rapid.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    Nice map, makes it a lot easier to understand where the main routes go. Though the route numbers need to be radically changed, as many have already said.

    They should email the map to Dublin Bus and the NTA - it'd be interesting to see how (if) they respond!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭xper


    mikemac wrote: »
    Numbering system in Dublin seems to be a mess.
    Maybe it developed organically over the decades
    Yeah, 'developed organically' is the phrase management uses when they mean 'we didn't think ahead'.

    I know that at least some of the single digit bus routes are simply replacements for the old tram lines. I've no idea how most of the double digit route numbers and their suffixed derivatives were allocated. Seems completely random. My favourite never-the-twain-shall meet is the 17 and 17A.

    Mention has been made of the vehicle/route rebranding in the early 90's which very quickly fell apart. I agree with the observation that having seperate vehicle liveries for different classes of service is difficult to manage and also works against the promotion of an integrated system.

    It might also be noted that that project, the last big route overhaul prior to to Network Direct, also saw something similar to that being suggested above, namely the introduction of three-digit route numbers for short local, suburban routes. So, for example, route 145 began life as a mini-bus serviced route between Bray DART Station and Kilmacanogue, its number based on route 45 which at that time was the main city centre - Bray route. Unfortunately, DB didn't stick to the convention and three digit numbers began being used willy-nilly. And so, several years later when they introduced what was effectively a new high frequency route with double deckers from Kilmac via Bray to the city centre (and now Heuston Stn), they billed it, somewhat ridiculously, as an extension of route 145. So now we have what is one of their trunk routes numbered in a manner that used to idicate a local route but which is now meaningless.

    So, it would be great if they overhauled the route numbers on the whole network again ... as long as they stick to it this time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭coolperson05


    Aard wrote: »
    It seems that somebody has taken it upon themselves to make a map like the one I mentioned in the OP. It's not perfect (seems like a first draft from the comments), notable some typos and missing Luas stations, but hopefully these shortcomings will be rectified.

    And now if only Transport for Ireland / the NTA would get the finger out and produce one of their own...

    http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/dublin-rapid-transit-map-feedback-please/

    RapidTransportMap061112_more_fin-1024x859.jpg

    Love this map!! Please someone in the NTA print it and integrate it. The numbers are a total mess. Start from 1 with these high frequency routes and renumber the others. Even some different colouring on 'rapid' buses would be good.

    And am I the only one that hate that the 46A to Dun Laoghaire has that 'A'...why not just 46?! :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 280 ✭✭coolperson05


    Aard wrote: »
    It seems that somebody has taken it upon themselves to make a map like the one I mentioned in the OP. It's not perfect (seems like a first draft from the comments), notable some typos and missing Luas stations, but hopefully these shortcomings will be rectified.

    And now if only Transport for Ireland / the NTA would get the finger out and produce one of their own...

    http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/dublin-rapid-transit-map-feedback-please/

    RapidTransportMap061112_more_fin-1024x859.jpg

    Love this map!! Please someone in the NTA print it and integrate it. The numbers are a total mess. Start from 1 with these high frequency routes and renumber the others. Even some different colouring on 'rapid' buses would be good.

    And am I the only one that hates that the 46A to Dun Laoghaire has that 'A'...why not just 46?! :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 177 ✭✭LaFlammeRouge


    Aard wrote: »
    It seems that somebody has taken it upon themselves to make a map like the one I mentioned in the OP. It's not perfect (seems like a first draft from the comments), notable some typos and missing Luas stations, but hopefully these shortcomings will be rectified.

    I love it. It would be great if Dublin Bus introduced that kind of simple map, along with a simple zonal fare structure a proper integrated ticket.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,098 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    mikemac wrote: »
    Numbering system in Dublin seems to be a mess.
    Maybe it developed organically over the decades

    Much of the numbering is inherited from what number DUTC tram served the original route of the bus, in the 1940s...


  • Registered Users Posts: 7 rusty1052


    Hi Guys just noticed the image from the blog appearing here, I would be the guy that produced the maps above. I've just updated the and posted under a new post - http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/update-dublin-transport-map-v1-5/

    Would really appreciate if you could spare a couple of minutes just to have a wee check over it to make sure i've cut out all the typos. Just one quick note that the text in the fares area will be changed, doesn't really make much sense at the moment and looks a wee bit crap.
    MYOB wrote: »
    Much of the numbering is inherited from what number DUTC tram served the original route of the bus, in the 1940s...

    You'd be quite right with that.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 177 ✭✭LaFlammeRouge


    rusty1052 wrote: »
    Hi Guys just noticed the image from the blog appearing here, I would be the guy that produced the maps above. I've just updated the and posted under a new post - http://dt106ers.com/blog/2011/12/update-dublin-transport-map-v1-5/

    I think the map is great. Here is a couple of suggestions:
    • Make the lines straighter. There is too many bends. I think your representation of the 39A is the best. Some of the others are needlessly following the geographical route.

    • Put the bus route numbers on the map, at the end of the route line.

    • More information icons would be could e.g. P&R Symbol at the Red Cow and Navan Road train station, a plane symbol at the airport, ferry symbol at Dun Laoighaire etc.


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