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Who are you voting for and why ?

13

Comments

  • #62
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Sinn Fein realised their ridiculous policy of 50% corporation tax made them toxic to the electorate. As a result they are changing their policies, becoming more centrist, trying to become all things for all people.

    Basically they are turning into Fianna Fail.

    Sinn Féin have never had a policy for a 50% corp tax rate.

    Just to sum up the falsehoods so far from Pride Fighter.
    • Incorrectly claimed that Labour were the only party to oppose 3rd level fees. Sinn Féin also oppose such fees.
    • Incorrectly claimed that Sinn Féin wish to be dependent on the public sector in the north. Sinn Féin supports a corp tax reduction to create home-grown business.
    • Incorrectly claimed that Sinn Féin supports a 50% corp tax. Sinn Féin's current policy is for a 12.5% tax rate in the south, and to reduce the current tax rate of 28% in the north.

    Fancy entertaining me further with your nonsense? It's highly amusing.


  • #63
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Sinn Féin have never had a policy for a 50% corp tax rate.

    I've no links or figures ,but I can remember people being suprised at sinn fein debating for a higher corporation tax at one stage.
    I think it was last year some time.


  • #64
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I've no links or figures ,but I can remember people being suprised at sinn fein debating for a higher corporate tax at one stage.
    I think it was last year some time.

    There was - but it wasn't 50% as was claimed. It was 17.5%, and that is currently outdated . The current policy is 12.5%. People vote on relevant policies in their current context, not outdated ones.


  • #65
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    dlofnep wrote: »

    Incorrectly claimed that Labour were the only party to oppose 3rd level fees. Sinn Féin also oppose such fees.
    Oh yes, they did a great job introducing free fees in government in Northern Ireland. Oh wait.
    Incorrectly claimed that Sinn Féin wish to be dependent on the public sector in the north. Sinn Féin supports a corp tax reduction to create home-grown business.

    They do.
    Incorrectly claimed that Sinn Féin supports a 50% corp tax. Sinn Féin's current policy is for a 12.5% tax rate in the south, and to reduce the current tax rate of 28% in the north.

    At the last general election in 2007 they did support a 50% corporation tax. Now they are backtracking due to selfish electoral gain, just like Fianna Fail do.


  • #66
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    There was - but it wasn't 50% as was claimed. It was 17.5%, and that is currently outdated . The current policy is 12.5%. People vote on relevant policies in their current context, not outdated ones.

    I understand that sinn fein has new policies ,people should keep in mind previous proposals from parties though ,things can change in the future just as easy.


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  • #67
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Oh yes, they did a great job introducing free fees in government in Northern Ireland. Oh wait.

    Sinn Féin does not have control over the Fees in the north. You've a serious misunderstanding in regards to the power that they have and legislation that Sinn Féin can make in the North.
    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    They do.

    No, they don't. I've already highlighted to you that they support a reduction of corporate tax in the north, with intent of creating home-grown business. You're being silly at this point.
    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    At the last general election in 2007 they did support a 50% corporation tax. Now they are backtracking due to selfish electoral gain, just like Fianna Fail do.

    No, they did not support a 50% corporation tax rate. Please - Provide me with evidence of such fictitious claims.

    You've demonstrated nothing but ignorance in every post you've created in this thread. I've yet to find one truth from you. Not even one.


  • #68
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I understand that sinn fein has new policies ,people should keep in mind previous proposals from parties though ,things can change in the future just as easy.

    I assure you - there is no intentions of changing the corp tax rates. Especially not under the current economic circumstances. I understand why they aspired for a 17.% corp tax rate (keeping in mind that this was prior to the recession). But their current policy is to keep the status quo. I can't be anymore clear on this. Thanks for your understanding.


  • #69
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    @dlofnep ,

    How does Sinn fein see itself as a Northern and Southern political party ,surely our problems need undevided attention at the moment ?


  • #70
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    @dlofnep ,

    How does Sinn fein see itself as a Northern and Southern political party ,surely our problems need undevided attention at the moment ?

    It doesn't. It sees itself as an Irish party. Which is why it wants to harmonize tax, and introduce an Island-wide system like the NHS. Sinn Féin is the only party that operates in both north and south - both of which have unique issues to tackle. For example, the higher corp tax rates in the north, and the poor health-service in the south.


  • #71
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It doesn't. It sees itself as an Irish party. Which is why it wants to harmonize tax, and introduce an Island-wide system like the NHS. Sinn Féin is the only party that operates in both north and south - both of which have unique issues to tackle. For example, the higher corp tax rates in the north, and the poor health-service in the south.

    I think it would take more than one political party to achieve that tbh.


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  • #72
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    I have a bad habit of voting for people who I've seen to do something. So most likely FF, as the rest I don't see unless it's a month either side of an election... :mad:


  • #73
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Hardly the best economic policies to pursue.

    I find this funny, considering that the general trend of Labour's policies are the same: higher taxes and more spending, as I outlined here (but never got many replies, unfortunately).
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    How does Sinn fein see itself as a Northern and Southern political party ,surely our problems need undevided attention at the moment ?

    That whole topic of Sinn Fein as a viable southern electoral force is really outside the scope of this thread. It would be an interesting area to investigate, but unfortunately rational and balanced threads about Sinn Féin are hard to achieve.


  • #74
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    I find this funny, considering that the general trend of Labour's policies are the same: higher taxes and more spending, as I outlined here (but never got many replies, unfortunately).

    Do you know who introduced the 12.5% corporation tax? It was a Labour minister for finance, Ruairi Quinn. Labour is in favour of higher taxes for those who can afford it. But as a free market party, we would offer tax breaks to any job creators and entrepreneurs. Labour is a free market party. We just think it should be properly regulated. Labour would tax a hospital consultant earning 300k higher than a shop owner who employs 2 people with a turnover of 300k per year. I think that is perfectly rational.


  • #75
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    I find this funny, considering that the general trend of Labour's policies are the same: higher taxes and more spending, as I outlined here (but never got many replies, unfortunately).
    My 2c on tax increases
    I was always for higher taxes in Ireland and when the recession came ,I felt that was when we could of given ourselves a little increase(tax cut).
    We have fallen way behind on income tax-take in this country ,it's hard to say it ,but we should be paying more tax ,I think.

    Fianna fail bought elections for years through property taxes etc. Labour are only trying to do the right thing.

    That whole topic of Sinn Fein as a viable southern electoral force is really outside the scope of this thread. It would be an interesting area to investigate, but unfortunately rational and balanced threads about Sinn Féin are hard to achieve.

    Fair enough ,I hadn't given sinn fein any thought during the thread until people mention them.
    I suppose their policies are completely different to other parties and very hard to debate against/for.
    I suppose I was curious:(
    .


  • #76
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I think it would take more than one political party to achieve that tbh.

    Sorry, but you asked me a question and I responded accordingly. Sinn Féin's policies were questioned, and I responded to the smears from Pride Fighter.

    But FTR, the DUP also supports lower corp tax in the north. It's one issue the two parties are united on, for the betterment of the people.


  • #77
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Sorry, but you asked me a question and I responded accordingly. Sinn Féin's policies were questioned, and I responded to the smears from Pride Fighter.

    But FTR, the DUP also supports lower corp tax in the north. It's one issue the two parties are united on, for the betterment of the people.

    Thanks for your replies.
    I'm not making any attempt to undermine your views or sinn fein's policies ,I was just trying to provoke an answer.
    Some of my family vote sinn fein and I've noticed that more people are thinking of voting for sinn fein ,that never did before.


  • #78
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Do you know who introduced the 12.5% corporation tax?

    That's in the past, and while I commend and thank Mr Quinn, my concerns are with the future, especially as Labour are apparently happy to place extra taxes on the private economy to keep public sector workers immune from the recession (as per my thread).
    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Labour is in favour of higher taxes for those who can afford it. But as a free market party, we would offer tax breaks to any job creators and entrepreneurs.

    Labour is not a free market party! As I said in my thread, they're all to happy to raise tax rather than tackle spending. Tax breaks are fine but are really only an admission of the truth: tax hurts the economy. The best thing any government could do would be to get out of the economy.

    And it's not just tax, mind. Small (even tiny) business owners I've talked to are nearly more concerned about the regulation and the red tape in this country. I'm talking about ordinary folks who just want to contribute to this country but are forced to jump through so many hoops just to start off.
    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Labour would tax a hospital consultant earning 300k higher than a shop owner who employs 2 people with a turnover of 300k per year. I think that is perfectly rational.

    I agree!


  • #79
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    We have fallen way behind on income tax-take in this country ,it's hard to say it ,but we should be paying more tax ,I think.

    I think the bigger problem is government spending for two reasons: tax hurts the economy, as above, and lots of government spending encourages a culture of unhealthy dependence on the government.

    I'm not anti-tax by any means, I'm just of the belief that to increase tax you have to be able to justify most if not all items of spending. Ireland is a far cry from that.
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    Fianna fail bought elections for years through property taxes etc. Labour are only trying to do the right thing.

    I think the most lucrative method of "buying" elections was the raising of social welfare. Note how the percentile increase in the dole was double in the election budget (~10%) than the previous budget (~5%).
    yoshytoshy wrote: »
    I suppose their policies are completely different to other parties and very hard to debate against/for.
    I suppose I was curious

    The main problem with threads about Sinn Fein is that they are invariably hijacked by "Sinn Fein haters" who will keep on bringing up issues, such as the McCabe murder, in a manner inappropriate to the thread topic.


  • #80
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    The main problem with threads about Sinn Fein is that they are invariably hijacked by "Sinn Fein haters" who will keep on bringing up issues, such as the McCabe murder, in a manner inappropriate to the thread topic.

    I hadn't thought of that cheers:)


  • #81
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Re: yoshytoshy

    I appreciate that, and I'm more than happy to discuss my views with you. But as you can see, I'm often forced to defend distortions of the truth with some posters - which takes up my time for some more meaningful discussion. That's not aimed at you by the way.

    To be honest - What I'm not content with on these forums, and I've said this before - is that, when a thread is created to discuss who we are voting for - If a poster mentions Sinn Féin, they are often chastised. We should all be afforded an equal right to express our views on here, without being chastised. I'm well used to it now - so if I choose to post in such threads, I'm ready to spend a few pages defending my vote (not that I should have to in a democratic state), and clearing up the types of distortions that people have already posted in this thread. It's time-consuming.


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  • #82
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    dlofnep wrote: »
    They have always advocated low corp tax in the north, because it is up to 28% there. They wanted it reduced to allow for more home-grown businesses to be created - to break away from being dependent on the public sector for employment. Infact, island-wide tax harmonization has always been one of their policies.

    The DUP also support lower corp tax in the north. If the two parties could make it happen, it would be a remarkable achievement for both of them, considering they couldn't sit in the same room not so long ago. Unfortunately, Sinn Féin nor the DUP have the freedom to control the economic infrastructure of the North - which I believe is a bad move. The British corp tax is just way too high for the North to become self-sufficient.

    My my initial post was in response to Pride Fighter's assertion that Sinn Féin wishes to depend on the public sector in the north, to which I pointed out that they wished to reduced corp tax to counter this. Just incase, anyone wished to take my post out of context.

    In the south, their current policy at the time of posting this is to keep the status quo at 12.5%.

    I think they should join but i think that the dup are too presbyterian to join up with them (minister creating them and all:rolleyes:) and there would be too much fighting and they wouldn't agree!


  • #83
    Pride Fighter
    Registered Users Posts: 5,729 ✭✭✭Pride Fighter


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »


    Labour is not a free market party! As I said in my thread, they're all to happy to raise tax rather than tackle spending. Tax breaks are fine but are really only an admission of the truth: tax hurts the economy. The best thing any government could do would be to get out of the economy.

    I'd disagree. Last time Labour were in government 1,000 jobs a week were being created. These were private sector jobs mostly. It was Fianna Fail that employed so many in the public sector.

    And it's not just tax, mind. Small (even tiny) business owners I've talked to are nearly more concerned about the regulation and the red tape in this country. I'm talking about ordinary folks who just want to contribute to this country but are forced to jump through so many hoops just to start off.

    Too much red tape stifles business. Too many taxes stifle business. Labour currently oppose water taxes. Currently businesses pay water tax. I am sure Labour would oppose water taxes for the businesses of this country as well as the general citizenry.


  • #84
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Labour currently oppose water taxes. Currently businesses pay water tax. I am sure Labour would oppose water taxes for the businesses of this country as well as the general citizenry.

    I didn't know this :( ,water taxes are essential in my view and important as part of our economic recovery.
    There goes my green/labour vote.


  • #85
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    I'd disagree. Last time Labour were in government 1,000 jobs a week were being created. These were private sector jobs mostly. It was Fianna Fail that employed so many in the public sector.

    As I said, I'm looking to the future. Labour are seeking to pursue high tax high spending policies, especially when compared to Fine Gael. Gilmore has said he will not cut social welfare (even though, in real terms, it has gone up, while workers have seen pay cuts and job losses). At the party conference they pledged a reversal of public sector pay cuts. These are not the actions of a free market party by any stretch of the imagination.
    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Currently businesses pay water tax. I am sure Labour would oppose water taxes for the businesses of this country as well as the general citizenry.

    Water costs have to paid anyway, so you either directly charge those who use water or place a blanket tax on the whole population. In terms of "fairness" the former easily wins the day; pay for what you use I say.


  • #86
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Sorry, but you asked me a question and I responded accordingly. Sinn Féin's policies were questioned, and I responded to the smears from Pride Fighter.

    But FTR, the DUP also supports lower corp tax in the north. It's one issue the two parties are united on, for the betterment of the people.

    Yes my mother voted for one of them republican parties last time, but now she said that she will be voting for the conservatives as it gives you a choice on whether you want labour or conservative in power etc etc... and there are also much better bonus like that.. my dad is voting for the same party and he is saying that they provide the better taxes and that they are really against a united ireland so he will not lose his pension etc. (he says uk pension is far better)


  • #87
    Sulmac
    Registered Users Posts: 1,021 ✭✭✭Sulmac


    owenc wrote: »
    Yes my mother voted for one of them republican parties last time, but now she said that she will be voting for the conservatives as it gives you a choice on whether you want labour or conservative in power etc etc... and there are also much better bonus like that.. my dad is voting for the same party and he is saying that they provide the better taxes and that they are really against a united ireland so he will not lose his pension etc. (he says uk pension is far better)

    Well, it isn't.

    ROI: €230.30 per week (for one person with no dependants).
    UK: £97.65 per week (for one person with no dependants).

    Same with unemployment benefits, child benefit and almost any other state benefit. All higher in ROI than UK.


  • #88
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Sulmac wrote: »
    Well, it isn't.

    ROI: €230.30 per week (for one person with no dependants).
    UK: £97.65 per week (for one person with no dependants).

    Same with unemployment benefits, child benefit and almost any other state benefit. All higher in ROI than UK.

    Well thats what he told me it must be his pension... maybe there is no job equivalent to his pension in the republic or maybe his job gets payed higher... it must do.


  • #89
    questioner
    Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭questioner


    probably the greens depending on how mary white does in the next year or so. Mj nolan and mcguiness are our ff deputies, mj was voted in the last year or so as the most useless td in the country - no surprise there. Mc Guinness is a bit of a blowhard but to give his due he does respond to constituents queries quickly and he doesnt toe the party line which can be a good or bad thing depending.

    Sinn fein will never get into power in this country people will vote them into opposition but if they ever show a reasonable prospect of getting into government their vote will implode like it did in the last election. I listened to mary lou on the sunday supplement a couple of weeks ago and was singularly unimpressed mcguinness made bits of her. ditto adams performance at the ard fheis - lowlight of the night willie tripping up over his moustache - YOU HAVE A BEARD GERRY!

    SFs leadership is quite poor and i think thats the reason the party is suffering a fall off in dublin, how many councillors have defected? Mary lou lost her euro bid as well and gerry is badly smeared by his brothers actions. Escalations of CIRA and RIRA are not doing anything for SF either. regardless of the siatuations in reality i do not believe that SF are co-operating fully with the PSNI and i suspect the silent majority in this country may feel the same way. Robert mcCartney did far more damage to them than they would like to admit.

    R bruton would get my vote if he was in my area as would creighton, and maybe varadkar as well - didnt like his remarks about garret though, very uncalled for. if FG lose kenny i think they would have a prospect of a comfortable majority. the man is a clown, the george lee affair was laughable and highlighted his abysmal people skills. he has the charisma of a gone off yoghurt.

    What i find hard to believe is that people have written off ff so soon, if the country had returned to solid growth by the next GE i would not be at all surprised to see FF home again. more than likely with lenihan as taoiseach( health permitting ) and hanafin as tanaiste.

    gilmore is the man of the moment but whatever chance he has of being kingmaker he has lno chance of being king. overall majority my @rse, he obviously has no clue about the depth of resentment towards the public sector. get a grip pal, if jackie o connor can see the writing on the wall then surely gilmore can as well. joan b is the worst type of hand wringer, couldnt deal with her in cabinet.

    And cowen, i do not believe for a second he is a traitor and that was a low blow although as i read in the times it is remarkable that what brought the most visible display of emotion from him was a personal attack and not any of the other disasters the country has lurched to and from. I dont see him leading FF in the next election, back bench support is not there and i suspect o keefe and dempsey would be happy to nail different colors to the mast as well. hanafin shafted, coughlan in a portfolio which will probably strike next and harney still in health. not good leadership at all.


  • #90
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,736 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Pride Fighter wrote: »

    At the last general election in 2007 they did support a 50% corporation tax. Now they are backtracking due to selfish electoral gain, just like Fianna Fail do.

    where does it say that in their manifesto?

    http://michaelpidgeon.com/manifestos/docs/sf/Sinn%20Fein%20GE%202007.pdf

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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  • #91
    danman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 583 ✭✭✭danman


    Pride Fighter wrote: »
    Labour would tax a hospital consultant earning 300k higher than a shop owner who employs 2 people with a turnover of 300k per year. I think that is perfectly rational.

    that is a very bad example to give. A hospital consultant would pay more tax that a shop with turnover of €300,000.

    That shop would be paying for it's products and probably operating on 10% profit.
    So he would be paying tax on €30,000 to €50,000

    sorry to knitpick, but it implies that the shop is contributing more.
    In essence, I know that the money from the consultants tax is an accountancy exercise, but also, a shop doesn't generate inward investment either.


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