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Repossessions
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I note your scepticism but it's regular private banking/stockbroking/weath management business even in Dublin.
How do you hold your equities, paper certificates or a brokerage account. If the latter, simply ask about margin trading facilities.
brokerage account , if a stock portfolio does indeed provide adeuquate security against a loan , i would not have much problem surrendering control to a bank in some shape or form , i dont trade every week , its a permanent portfolio made up mostly of etf,s which track the s + p etc0 -
grover_green wrote: »brokerage account , if a stock portfolio does indeed provide adeuquate security against a loan , i would not have much problem surrendering control to a bank in some shape or form , i dont trade every week , its a permanent portfolio made up mostly of etf,s which track the s + p etc
The ETFs are a problem as raising finance against those is less easy than against actual equities. This will depend partly on the particular ETF provider, whether it's a synthetic ETF (one where the ETF acquires its exposure to the underlying index by entering into a derivative rather than by acquiring the individual securities). ETFs have been a broadly good development although they are only as good as the provider - in most cases the investor cannot look through to an actual portfolio but to derivatives and as a result there can be significant risks not related to the shares but to the creditworthiness of the institutions involved in the ETF.
If you are interested in leveraging up your investment, sell the ETFs and use a portion of the proceeds as margin for a CFD and the balance to grow the portfolio exposure.0 -
The ETFs are a problem as raising finance against those is less easy than against actual equities. This will depend partly on the particular ETF provider, whether it's a synthetic ETF (one where the ETF acquires its exposure to the underlying index by entering into a derivative rather than by acquiring the individual securities). ETFs have been a broadly good development although they are only as good as the provider - in most cases the investor cannot look through to an actual portfolio but to derivatives and as a result there can be significant risks not related to the shares but to the creditworthiness of the institutions involved in the ETF.
If you are interested in leveraging up your investment, sell the ETFs and use a portion of the proceeds as margin for a CFD and the balance to grow the portfolio exposure.
i only ever use vanguard or ishares ( blackrock ) etf,s
im only in etf,s when it comes to emerging markets ( 9% exposure ) and the s + p , i own a bunch of individual blue chip large caps like apple , mc donalds , etc , glanbia and kerry ( plus a few grand in bank of ireland which i bought @ 9 cent ) on the irish market and the likes of tesco , statoil , vodafone , glaxosmithkline , british american tobacco in europe , have a handfull of small companies but in small cash amounts , i also have a third of my portfolio in corporate bonds and treasirues via PIMCO , nothing too out of the ordinary overall0 -
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1128/mortgage-arrears-on-buy-to-let-properties-hit-29-business.htmlMortgage arrears on buy-to-let properties are running at double the rate of arrears on owner occupied properties.
New preliminary data from the Central Bank shows that the arrears rate in the buy-to-let sector stands at 29%.
The banks have lent €32 billion to landlords for buy-to-let properties, but 29% of those mortgages are more than three months in arrears.
That is almost twice the 14.7% arrears rate for owner occupied properties.
In its latest Macro Financial Review, the Central Bank said it is clear the banks must deal with distressed debt in a more structured and efficient way.
And still no movement to repossess from these failed business people - Extraordinary.0 -
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1128/mortgage-arrears-on-buy-to-let-properties-hit-29-business.html
And still no movement to repossess from these failed business people - Extraordinary.
The Govt cannot bring itself to admit that the property market is heading for another crash, these figures are conservative i would guess.
We have had 5 years on nothingness in terms of action on the failed property speculation of so many people, buying apts for their children in some cases, but the renter particularly in Dublin is faced with massive rents, to LLs, who in many cases are not even repaying their debts.
The irish economy is one sick puppy.0 -
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The Govt cannot bring itself to admit that the property market is heading for another crash, these figures are conservative i would guess.
We have had 5 years on nothingness in terms of action on the failed property speculation of so many people, buying apts for their children in some cases, but the renter particularly in Dublin is faced with massive rents, to LLs, who in many cases are not even repaying their debts.
The irish economy is one sick puppy.
And it is the private renter who truly continues to be shafted.
If these BTL distressed properties were repossessed and cleared on the market there would be a drop in property price encouraging renters to to buy and subsequently reducing rental demand and price.0 -
And it is the private renter who truly continues to be shafted.
If these BTL distressed properties were repossessed and cleared on the market there would be a drop in property price encouraging renters to to buy and subsequently reducing rental demand and price.
If prices started falling it would discourage buyers who would wait for further falls. At the moment rents are rising in some areas. That will lift some landlords out of the problem zone.0 -
Milk & Honey wrote: »If prices started falling it would discourage buyers who would wait for further falls. At the moment rents are rising in some areas. That will lift some landlords out of the problem zone.
So you would prolong the moratorium to assist failed landlords to the detriment of the renter?0 -
I'm not sure thats true. Currently we have the peculiar situation that it is cheaper to buy than rent, and still people continue to rent, pushing rental prices up, and like M&H said, rescuing distressed LLs. The reason people are not buying (in the main) is not price, it's non availability of credit.
And it is the private renter who truly continues to be shafted.
If these BTL distressed properties were repossessed and cleared on the market there would be a drop in property price encouraging renters to to buy and subsequently reducing rental demand and price.0 -
The banks aren't (completely) stupid. They will not lend to renters to let them "escape" from renting and buy a reasonably priced property (and I do believe many properties are now reasonably priced in Dublin at least).So you would prolong the moratorium to assist failed landlords to the detriment of the renter?
Banks will continue to hold off lending to FTBers to prop up their BTL mortgage book. It isn't very "fair" IMO but it's business.0 -
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StillWaters wrote: »I'm not sure thats true. Currently we have the peculiar situation that it is cheaper to buy than rent, and still people continue to rent, pushing rental prices up, and like M&H said, rescuing distressed LLs. The reason people are not buying (in the main) is not price, it's non availability of credit.
I would buy if artificial interference in the property and rental markets were withdrawn (repossession moratorium, Nama etc.) and the natural course of supply/demand allowed both markets to reach their natural levels.
I agree that credit is the prime factor that people are not buying.
But make no mistake about it, there are plenty of potential buyers out there (not completely dependant on financing) who would buy if this enormous Kerplunk game had a couple of tax payer funded straws taken out.0 -
You will be renting a long time Zamboni!
I would buy if artificial interference in the property and rental markets were withdrawn (repossession moratorium, Nama etc.) and the natural course of supply/demand allowed both markets to reach their natural levels.
I agree that credit is the prime factor that people are not buying.
But make no mistake about it, there are plenty of potential buyers out there (not completely dependant on financing) who would buy if this enormous Kerplunk game had a couple of tax payer funded straws taken out.0 -
The banks aren't (completely) stupid. They will not lend to renters to let them "escape" from renting and buy a reasonably priced property (and I do believe many properties are now reasonably priced in Dublin at least).
Banks will continue to hold off lending to FTBers to prop up their BTL mortgage book. It isn't very "fair" IMO but it's business.
It is not business.
It is a tax payer funded limbo with the sole purpose of ignoring and not realising the true value of the assets held on the books.
The banks have their heads in the sand, the failed landlords maintain the status quo, the distressed residential sector get to stay in properties they cannot afford, the govt gets to look good looking after "de peeple" in NE and the private renter suffers with artificially created prices.0 -
Why would the banks repossess? Remember an awful lot of the btl mortgages were with BoS, a bank not beholden to the Irish tax payer. They won't repossess whilst the LL is above water, and there is some chance of the loan being repaid. Why on earth would they reposess a house with a 200k mortgage to sell it for 70k? If that LL can survive the next few years, inflation will do it's magic over the remaining years of the mortgage. There are deals being done on Mortgages that are utterly unsustainable.
It is not business.
It is a tax payer funded limbo with the sole purpose of ignoring and not realising the true value of the assets held on the books.
The banks have their heads in the sand, the failed landlords maintain the status quo, the distressed residential sector get to stay in properties they cannot afford, the govt gets to look good looking after "de peeple" in NE and the private renter suffers with artificially created prices.
And NAMA does not have a remit to ease supply, or find a floor for property. NAMA is tasked with getting optimum value for it's assets on behalf of the State. That would not be gained by dumping it's stock.0 -
Do you know something about inflation that we don't? ECB target inflation is 2%. Unless we are outside the Euro, we won't be seeing the 12% inflation or whatever of the 70s.StillWaters wrote: »They won't repossess whilst the LL is above water, and there is some chance of the loan being repaid. Why on earth would they reposess a house with a 200k mortgage to sell it for 70k? If that LL can survive the next few years, inflation will do it's magic over the remaining years of the mortgage.
Bear in mind that nearly 30% of BTLs - most of which are IO - aren't performing. In other words, nearly a third of BTL morgages, most of which only require the repayment of interest, are in arrears. There will be people out there facing an indefinite period of subsidising renters by paying more in mortgage payments than they bring in with rent, all for a property that will probably never reach the value they paid for it in their lifetimes. And then be faced with coming up with a massive lump sum from somewhere to actually pay off the principle.
I can see plenty of people walking away from property traps like that.0 -
BANKS will repossess if no payments are made,
my friend stopped paying loan, investor, house was empty.
put house up for sale, was offered 90k, bank stopped house sale, she owed 100k. no savings left.
house was empty for 2 years 6months.
she got second offer 90k,, bank said ok.GO ahead,
house was sold a month ago for 90k.
Bank agreed to write off 15k plus, ie ten k plus mortgage interest ,ie amount owed after 90k paid from house sale.
She was in touch with bank,works 3 days a week,
told them i,ll sell house as soon as i can as soon as i get a good offer .
SHE says to bank official,
I WONT be paying loan, not one cent.i can,t afford it.
she got 2 offers on house,
bank blocked 1st offer over 10k ,ie she owed 100, offer was 90k.
she has bout 600euro in savings.
does not live in ireland,
it was a buy to let house.
it had corner site, house double the normal size.
big enough to build a second house ,house is 12 years old.
in 2007 house was valued at 160k.
i heard on pat kenny show ,bank will go for repossession,
if payments or stopped ,and house is empty or
buyer has gone, no longer in touch with bank.
her lawyer told her ,thats it,
you owe nothing ,they will not pursue you for 15k.
they wrote it off as bad debt.
The bank probably knows in 2 years time that house will be worth 75k,
ie 90k is a fair offer ,its the market value.
house is empty,theres no repairs ,being done on it.
they got her to fill in forms,re assets,
statement of income etc.
her income dropped by 60 per cent approx.
since 2009.
there,s probably alot of btl investors that are just paying the interest on the loan.
if the banks repossessed 50 thousand house,s ,who would buy them?
They might be empty for years .
she was offered 90k, in 2010, bank would not let her sell it ,in 2010.0 -
i know btl investor ,got 2 apartments, 150k, each,
lives in 1. unit 2 is btl investment, now worth maybe 75k, She,d love to walk away, shes in negative equity on both units,both from the aib.
IF she wanted to walk away, she,d have to declare herself bankrupt, where would she live?
she has a good job,she can afford apartment 1,loan is 100k.
the btl apartment ,rent covers bout 78 per cent of the loan.
SHE,S just paying the bills,not much left for luxurys like going out.
she,d love to sell up unit 2, but does not have 75k,
ie shes in negative equity by 75k.
if she, walked away ,she d have nowhere to live, and probably lose her job.
IF the interest rates go up by 2 per cent ,ive no idea
what she will do.
as she has 2 mortgages with aib
With the skills she has,she would find it very hard to
get another job, she has no degree ,or special qualifications.
i don,t know how she got 2 mortgages in 2007 ,on 2 new apartments.
shes on a average wage.
she had apartment in dublin, made bout 90k ,
profit when she sold it.
ITS not that easy to walk away,specially if you have 2 loans from
the same bank.
its likely she would lose her job if she declared herself bankrupt,
since she works in the financial sector in a small town.
i reckon she paid round 270k for the 2 apartments, i don,t know the exact figure.
Maybe people are waiting for new bankrupcty law to come into force ,before they consider should i walk away from mortgage .0 -
walk away where? We don't have non recourse mortgages. Many of these loans are securitised on PPRs that have low or no mortgages, and have cheap trackers. Some of that 30% are strategic defaulters also.Monty Burnz wrote: »
I can see plenty of people walking away from property traps like that.
I don't believe for one minute that 30% of BTLs are unsustainable, and clearly the banks dont either.0 -
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The obvious options are personal insolvency, bankruptcy, bankruptcy in the UK, and just emigrating to Australia or something with no intention of coming back.StillWaters wrote: »walk away where? We don't have non recourse mortgages. Many of these loans are securitised on PPRs that have low or no mortgages, and have cheap trackers. Some of that 30% are strategic defaulters also.
I don't believe for one minute that 30% of BTLs are unsustainable, and clearly the banks dont either.
You are dead right about the strategic defaulters though - the problem is that it is ridiculously hard to go after their PPRs. Remember the Killiney couple with the BTL empire and the press they got when evicted from their PPR after not paying the mortgage for years?0 -
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Thanks for those stories Riclad - some unenviable situations there. it's a cluster f**k all round it seems.0
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why would you go bankrupt if you had a BTL in €100k NE securitised against a PPR in €150 positive equity. I don't know the stats, but on a personal level most people I know with BTLs started out on home ownership in the 90s or before, and foolishly leveraged the equity in their PPRs. They would love to offload their 'investment' acknowledging now their poor decisions, but know if they did a judgement would be placed on their home. Those sitting on their hands waiting for a mass exodus of such LLs will be sitting a long time.Monty Burnz wrote: »The obvious options are personal insolvency, bankruptcy, bankruptcy in the UK, and just emigrating to Australia or something with no intention of coming back.?
Again regarding emigration, most of this cohort are 35+, well established in their careers, children in school, parents getting older and needing care. Emigration is not really an option.0 -
Yup, those people are probably stuck. And I agree there are a lot of them in the amateur BTL ranks - but if even a mere eighth of BTLs end up back on the market, you are looking at an influx of tens of thousands of properties, and it could be a lot more than that. It's a pity we don't have decent statistics to base a discussion on.StillWaters wrote: »why would you go bankrupt if you had a BTL in €100k NE securitised against a PPR in €150 positive equity. I don't know the stats, but on a personal level most people I know with BTLs started out on home ownership in the 90s or before, and foolishly leveraged the equity in their PPRs. They would love to offload their 'investment' acknowledging now their poor decisions, but know if they did a judgement would be placed on their home. Those sitting on their hands waiting for a mass exodus of such LLs will be sitting a long time.0 -
i know btl investor ,got 2 apartments, 150k, each,
lives in 1. unit 2 is btl investment, now worth maybe 75k, She,d love to walk away, shes in negative equity on both units,both from the aib.
IF she wanted to walk away, she,d have to declare herself bankrupt, where would she live?
she has a good job,she can afford apartment 1,loan is 100k.
the btl apartment ,rent covers bout 78 per cent of the loan.
SHE,S just paying the bills,not much left for luxurys like going out.
she,d love to sell up unit 2, but does not have 75k,
ie shes in negative equity by 75k.
if she, walked away ,she d have nowhere to live, and probably lose her job.
IF the interest rates go up by 2 per cent ,ive no idea
what she will do.
as she has 2 mortgages with aib
With the skills she has,she would find it very hard to
get another job, she has no degree ,or special qualifications.
i don,t know how she got 2 mortgages in 2007 ,on 2 new apartments.
shes on a average wage.
she had apartment in dublin, made bout 90k ,
profit when she sold it.
ITS not that easy to walk away,specially if you have 2 loans from
the same bank.
its likely she would lose her job if she declared herself bankrupt,
since she works in the financial sector in a small town.
i reckon she paid round 270k for the 2 apartments, i don,t know the exact figure.
Maybe people are waiting for new bankrupcty law to come into force ,before they consider should i walk away from mortgage .
She made about 90k in 2007, what did she do with this money, that would be more than enough to make up for the shortfall by selling property 2.
She bought two apartments for a combined 300k a few years ago on a very average wage in a small town where she cant afford to lose her job. What was her thinking behind this? Did she not see the pitfalls in what she was doing?0 -
Its a pet peeve of mine when I listen to talk of repossessions for "homeless" or "where would they live" to be banded around as arguments. A hell of a lot of people rent and are not considered to be homeless.0
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Yerra screw renters. Second class citizens the lot of them - who cares if they get screwed?*Balmed Out wrote: »Its a pet peeve of mine when I listen to talk of repossessions for "homeless" or "where would they live" to be banded around as arguments. A hell of a lot of people rent and are not considered to be homeless.
*This appears to be a pretty widespread attitude in the Irish media and society in general
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She bought car, i reckon shes in negative, equity by 75 k on each apartment,
She says unit 1 ok, i live there ,
she cant sell apartment 2,she has to get a new tenant every year.its not in dublin.
she borrowed ,about 280k, shes in negative equity.
I DONT know the exact figures as i have the heart to ask her.
its STRESSFUL ,getting tenants ,doing repairs ,
its like she s working for the bank,
i,d say 90 per cent of her wages goes to the bank, on loans.
I PRESUME,. she thought it would go up in value ,or be a good investment,to be honest ,or else she was just stupid.
IT was bought in 2007.I dont think she got any financial advice,from anyone,
just went to bank, and said, i earn x, i have x amount, in savings ,
how much can i borrow/
BECAUSE its a 2bed apartment ,she cant go to council
get a rent allowance ,client,
ie for the same money she could have got a 7 year old
3bed house in the same area,with a better rental return ,
better investment in the long term.
much easier to rent.
Theres a LIMITED amount of people who can just give back a house to the bank ,ie a btl investor may have 2 loans,
one on house a, he lives there,
no 2 on an investment property.
ITS tough being a btl investor ,when the rent is less than the loan,
you are paying 1000s of pounds into a house,
thats losing value,
eg loan 150k, house maybe worth 90k.
Bank wont let you sell it, unless you have the 60k to pay the difference in sale price, house loan value.
She has very little savings, she would love to give the investment back tommorow.
IT can be hard outside dublin to get a dependable working person as a tenant who,ll pay the rent on time.
A single person on rent allowance is unlikely to be able to pay rent on a 2bed unit,
and single mother s just rent a house , as rent is cheap outside dublin ,
not much point in renting a 2bed apartment ,when you can get a house for the same price.
I reckon at that time apartments were 120 - 150k in that area.
i,ve no idea how much she paid,all i know for sure is she has to mortgages from aib.
SHE may have 90 per cent loan on the investment property,
and say owe 95k on the unit where she lives.
i don,t think she can afford to sell either unit, as both have lost 75k in value in the last 4 years.The loans are probably 30 year term .,i,m just guessing .as i see no point in asking her for the details of the loans.
i f you are on welfare, single person , and go on housing list ,
you are considering homeless,
ie to apply for rent allowance ,you need to officially considered homeless.
ie i know single mother lived with her mother in family home, age 22,
left home,got house on ra 1000 a month .
ie i think its a technicality, you need to considered homeless,
to get on the housing list , to qualify for ra.
she left home, 1 child, in order to qualify for a council flat,which she got after 7 years on ra.
I don,t see the attitude,screw the renters anywhere,
as more and more young people are renting, as even if you are working in a stable job,
its hard top get a home loan in most areas of ireland. Even people who have money maybe afraid to buy a house now, ie prices are still falling every year in most areas.
Most of the sympathy is with family,s who bought apartments or houses and are now stuck in
negative equity.
IT s more like screw the btl investors ,they were greedy or stupid ,or reckless
they deserve whats happening to them.
if they get screwed by the banks, so what?
Thats not my opinion, that,s just what i read,
ie the average person does not have a high opinion of landlords.
if you a renting a flat for the last 5 years,i don,t consider you homeless.0 -
She bought car, i reckon shes in negative, equity by 75 k on each apartment,
She says unit 1 ok, i live there ,
she cant sell apartment 2,she has to get a new tenant every year.its not in dublin.
she borrowed ,about 280k, shes in negative equity.
I DONT know the exact figures as i have the heart to ask her.
its STRESSFUL ,getting tenants ,doing repairs ,
its like she s working for the bank,
i,d say 90 per cent of her wages goes to the bank, on loans.
I PRESUME,. she thought it would go up in value ,or be a good investment,to be honest ,or else she was just stupid.
IT was bought in 2007.I dont think she got any financial advice,from anyone,
just went to bank, and said, i earn x, i have x amount, in savings ,
how much can i borrow/
BECAUSE its a 2bed apartment ,she cant go to council
get a rent allowance ,client,
ie for the same money she could have got a 7 year old
3bed house in the same area,with a better rental return ,
better investment in the long term.
much easier to rent.
Theres a LIMITED amount of people who can just give back a house to the bank ,ie a btl investor may have 2 loans,
one on house a, he lives there,
no 2 on an investment property.
ITS tough being a btl investor ,when the rent is less than the loan,
you are paying 1000s of pounds into a house,
thats losing value,
eg loan 150k, house maybe worth 90k.
Bank wont let you sell it, unless you have the 60k to pay the difference in sale price, house loan value.
She has very little savings, she would love to give the investment back tommorow.
IT can be hard outside dublin to get a dependable working person as a tenant who,ll pay the rent on time.
A single person on rent allowance is unlikely to be able to pay rent on a 2bed unit,
and single mother s just rent a house , as rent is cheap outside dublin ,
not much point in renting a 2bed apartment ,when you can get a house for the same price.
I reckon at that time apartments were 120 - 150k in that area.
i,ve no idea how much she paid,all i know for sure is she has to mortgages from aib.
SHE may have 90 per cent loan on the investment property,
and say owe 95k on the unit where she lives.
i don,t think she can afford to sell either unit, as both have lost 75k in value in the last 4 years.The loans are probably 30 year term .,i,m just guessing .as i see no point in asking her for the details of the loans.
i f you are on welfare, single person , and go on housing list ,
you are considering homeless,
ie to apply for rent allowance ,you need to officially considered homeless.
ie i know single mother lived with her mother in family home, age 22,
left home,got house on ra 1000 a month .
ie i think its a technicality, you need to considered homeless,
to get on the housing list , to qualify for ra.
she left home, 1 child, in order to qualify for a council flat,which she got after 7 years on ra.
I don,t see the attitude,screw the renters anywhere,
as more and more young people are renting, as even if you are working in a stable job,
its hard top get a home loan in most areas of ireland. Even people who have money maybe afraid to buy a house now, ie prices are still falling every year in most areas.
Most of the sympathy is with family,s who bought apartments or houses and are now stuck in
negative equity.
IT s more like screw the btl investors ,they were greedy or stupid ,or reckless
they deserve whats happening to them.
if they get screwed by the banks, so what?
Thats not my opinion, that,s just what i read,
ie the average person does not have a high opinion of landlords.
if you a renting a flat for the last 5 years,i don,t consider you homeless.
Its like any investment, you have to be prepared to take the losses if your willing to take the gains. Would she be unhappy/complaining now if those risks had paid off???
And alot of btl investors were reckless, when you take out mortgages of a combined 300k on a very modest wage in a job you cant lose what do you expect people to say. People in this country need to realise it wasnt ALL the banks fault & take some responsibility themselves. Otherwise things will never change.
She's in a tough situation that she needs to cope with it & work through until things get better. Why should the taxpayer have to pick up after everyone who made stupid decisions.
And alot of people arent fans of btl investors mainly because they were the ones who speculated the most & drove up the prices of houses in this country in the first place0 -
StillWaters wrote: »Currently we have the peculiar situation that it is cheaper to buy than rent
Not in many part of Dublin especially South Dublin where prices for property are still crazy.
Both myself and my wife have good incomes and we would even consider at the prices being listed currently. If the like of us aren't buying, who is?0 -
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South Dulblin is an enclave apart. Lots of demand chasing little supply. It might quiten down next year dependent on the budget of course, i can't see it though, people have always been prepared to pay a premium for that area.
Not in many part of Dublin especially South Dublin where prices for property are still crazy.
Both myself and my wife have good incomes and we would even consider at the prices being listed currently. If the like of us aren't buying, who is?0
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