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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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  • Options
    #3632
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    SeaFields wrote: »
    Yep, thats the one. I assume people must have got it a lot earlier than us so.

    If you still have it, please post it to phil hogan,grovine,co kilkenny.


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    #3633
    SeaFields
    Registered Users Posts: 6,551 ✭✭✭SeaFields


    Am Chile wrote: »
    If you still have it, please post it to phil hogan,grovine,co kilkenny.

    Ahh thats a pity, I used it to start the fire.


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    #3634
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    dvpower wrote: »
    The turnouts in the large urban centres were also very low, for example, an anti household charge protest in Cork attracted only 500 people.
    That doesn't point to large scale opposition, and nor do the polls. Time will tell I suppose.

    There,s also a signifigant number of people who won,t be paying the household tax, but also have no Interest in protests/rallies, several friends/relatives of mine won,t be paying the household tax and told me they won,t be going on any marches.

    One poster here who won,t be paying the household tax has stated a similar viewpoint.
    I have no intention of marching or protesting and there are many like me ...... we are just not going to pay.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77287412&postcount=3346


  • Options
    #3635
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    That doesn't point to large scale opposition, and nor do the polls. Time will tell I suppose.

    The government couldn't care less about people "marching". That is to demonstrate to other people that they are not alone in their opposition to this tax. The returns by the end of the month will be the real proof of public sentiment.

    I see we are still not getting a break down of the numbers registered, re: how many are paying versus how many are claiming exemption.


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    #3636
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    Slick50 wrote: »
    The government couldn't care less about people "marching". That is to demonstrate to other people that they are not alone in their opposition to this tax. The returns by the end of the month will be the real proof of public sentiment.

    I see we are still not getting a break down of the numbers registered, re: how many are paying versus how many are claiming exemption.

    That,s one thing we don,t know the less then 10 % registered how many of those registered actually paid and how many just registered to claim their excemption.


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    #3637
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    €800 estimated by who? Water metering if it comes in will be a good idea making people conserve a precious resource. What site tax? Septic tank inspection charge is €5 once off. If your septic tank is causing pollution you should fix it, if it isn't then no need to worry.

    Surely you are aware that the Governments stated intention is to raise €160 million this year, increasing to €1.6 Billion by 2014?
    Since the majority of those liable to pay this tax will not be living in mansions, the €800 estimation quoted by various News sources would appear to be reasonable.
    I believe one source is quoted earlier in this thread, if I remember correctly.

    Water metering in your opinion will be a good idea.
    I, and others, have stated valid objections in the relevant thread.
    It's interesting that you are so supportive of the idea, before knowing exactly how much it will cost.
    For that matter, why do you assume that it needs to be conserved everywhere in the Country?

    Septic tank charge has been reduced to €5, for part of this year.
    My septic tank causes no pollution. It was purposely built to exceed the required standards, since I also have a spring well, which I wouldn't dream of contaminating.

    It is rather disingenuous to suggest that this is a once off charge, since older septic tanks (not mine) are likely to require expensive maintenance.
    There is also the issue of when some bureaucrat may decide to change the required standards.
    I'm not so naive that I believe for one second that this charge is not another money spinner for the Government, European directive or no.
    I have very little doubt that in a year or two, the Government will find that our economic circumstances have changed, and it will be necessary to introduce inspection charges (probably by another name, just so no-one can accuse Mr Hogan of breaking promises, or lying!:rolleyes:)


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    #3638
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Surely you are aware that the Governments stated intention is to raise €160 million this year, increasing to €1.6 Billion by 2014?
    Source?


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    #3639
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    dvpower wrote: »
    Source?


    The 160 million is public knowledge for the household charge. I believe the Noreen1 was only sarcastically speculating on the rise to 1.6 billion by 2014, as there was a question mark in her sentence.

    However, if the average fee is to rise to 800 per year, then the annual household charge will generate circa 1.28 billion. add the water charge, estimated at €500 per year per house and that figure becomes 2.8 billion. It is almost 1am, so my maths might be a bit off.


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    #3640
    Noreen1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,654 ✭✭✭Noreen1


    dvpower wrote: »
    Source?


    http://www.sligochampion.ie/news/large-crowd-sends-out-a-clear-message-3022391.html
    Anger abounded when ESRI economist, John Fitzgerald, was quoted by Mr. Bree as saying that the average property tax will rise to €800 per annum - notwithstanding an additional water charge estimated at €500 each year.
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101103
    The Government’s stated intention is to raise 160 million euro next year from this tax and by 2014 1.6 billion euro. Phil Hogan indicated this when he proposed the legislation earlier in the year
    It's 1 am, Goodnight!


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    #3641
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Public meetings have being attended by thousands around the country, as for some of the protests that have drawn hundreds there,s a reason for that, some of those protests are in small towns/small villages.

    Some recent protests, photos from todays anti austerity protest in Tipperary.

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/media/set/?set=a.10150558662690887.373764.545750886&type=3


    My point was that no matter how many actually hit the streets,the main thing is the general non compliance when it comes to this charge,DVPower and other supporters of this tax are of the impression that people will pay it because they aren't out marching but as Mikom stated,it's easy to protest just by continuing living your life but not paying this bloody tax.


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    #3642
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    http://www.sligochampion.ie/news/large-crowd-sends-out-a-clear-message-3022391.html

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/101103

    It's 1 am, Goodnight!
    Noreen,
    These aren't sources for what you said.
    One is a second hand account of what an economist who isn't a member of government nor a representative of government may (or not) have said.

    The second is what Indymedia say Minister Hogan indicated, without explaining how he indicated it and without a direct quote.

    I haven't looked into it in any detail yet, but if this is what leads you to characterise it as the 'Governments stated objective', then you are just scaremongering.


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    #3643
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    Source?

    You've been involved in this thread long enough to have seen numerous references to the fact that this is only a precursor to a full blown property tax. In the MOU, which has been cited as a legally binding reason for "having to" introduce this tax, (that Enda and Eamon had no authority to negotiate) the stated goals show of how much they intend to raise. This was discussed at length, you couldn't have missed it, you cited the MOU.

    dvpower wrote: »
    The property tax is in the MOU. This was in place before the election so it isn't something that was cobbled together.


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    #3644
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    THE PROPOSED PROPERTY tax will raise around €500 million in annual revenue, three times more than the new household charge will bring in, the Taoiseach Enda Kenny has said.
    He said the measure will aim to bring in funds “of the order of half a billion”.
    Although the household charge was expected to be in place until 2014, the government has indicated the new property tax could come into effect as early as 2013.

    http://www.thejournal.ie/property-tax-will-raise-around-e500m-taoiseach-312372-Dec2011/

    Now add water rates and septic tank inspection fees (gonna be just like the NCT).


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    #3645
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Slick50 wrote: »
    You've been involved in this thread long enough to have seen numerous references to the fact that this is only a precursor to a full blown property tax. In the MOU, which has been cited as a legally binding reason for "having to" introduce this tax, (that Enda and Eamon had no authority to negotiate) the stated goals show of how much they intend to raise. This was discussed at length, you couldn't have missed it.
    I was asking about the specific claim that the government intends to increase this tax to bring in 1.6bn by 2014.

    Can you point to evidence of that specific intention either on this thread or elsewhere?


  • Options
    #3646
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    I was asking about the specific claim that the government intends to increase this tax to bring in 1.6bn by 2014.

    Can you point to evidence of that specific intention either on this thread or elsewhere?

    It's in the MOU.


  • Options
    #3647
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    Slick50 wrote: »
    It's in the MOU.
    You'll be able to quote it so?


  • Options
    #3648
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    You'll be able to quote it so?
    dvpower wrote: »
    There is a link to more details further back on this thread.

    Later.


  • Options
    #3649
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,480 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    As far as I know nothing has been determined regarding the property tax. There has been lots of speculation and some people are getting themselves wound up worrying about what they will have to pay next year and beyond. As it stands €100 will keep you on the right side of the law this year (€105 if you have a non-polluting septic tank) and not paying will only make it more expensive, it will not let you opt out of the system forever.

    This group is taking submissions at the moment and I read elsewhere that it is due to make its initial report in April.

    http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/LocalGovernmentAdministration/LocalGovernmentFinance/Inter-DepartmentalGrouponPropertyTax/


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    #3650
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    dvpower wrote: »
    I was asking about the specific claim that the government intends to increase this tax to bring in 1.6bn by 2014.

    Can you point to evidence of that specific intention either on this thread or elsewhere?

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/landlords-will-pass-on-the-100-household-charge-to-tenants-following-introduction-in-budget-2965638.html

    5th and 4th paragraph from the bottom.


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    #3651
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,480 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    goz83 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/landlords-will-pass-on-the-100-household-charge-to-tenants-following-introduction-in-budget-2965638.html

    5th and 4th paragraph from the bottom.

    That doesn't make sense. I think someone is confusing €160 million and €1.6 billion.


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    #3652
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    goz83 wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/landlords-will-pass-on-the-100-household-charge-to-tenants-following-introduction-in-budget-2965638.html

    5th and 4th paragraph from the bottom.

    This is the journalist conflating two things - the household charge that was to raise €160m and the total amount in tax raises in the budget which was €1.6bn.

    The €1.6 bn is also mentioned in the MOU, in the Q4-2011 review and it includes the the Property Tax Household charge, VAT, other indirect taxes, CGT and CAT.


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    #3653
    goz83
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    And there you have where all the confusion is coming from. Either way, the tax is totally wrong as it is supposed to be used for local services, but local services are being cut back. The banks themselves may as well be charging this tax. In a country where you need a license to own a dog, where a 14 year old boy can be imprisoned for having intercourse with a 17 year old girl, where a politician "almost" got a stadium named after himself and where a government is not held to their election promises.....is it really any wonder we are being charged twice and three times over for something we already own?


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    #3654
    Groinshot
    Registered Users Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Groinshot


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    We have been through this "small charge" already. The problem is, its a small charge to get people to register. Then comes the real charge.

    But the fact is, by not registering, you don't avoid it. you'll still get stung for it, all in one go though, when you try and move house...


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    #3655
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Groinshot wrote: »
    But the fact is, by not registering, you don't avoid it. you'll still get stung for it, all in one go though, when you try and move house...

    There is a difference between avoiding and protesting.


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    #3656
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Groinshot wrote: »
    But the fact is, by not registering, you don't avoid it. you'll still get stung for it, all in one go though, when you try and move house...

    If the charge stands.


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    #3657
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    Out of Interest how many of the anti household tax posters here, have joined and helped out with the local anti household tax campaigns in their local areas?


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    #3658
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Out of Interest how many of the anti household tax posters here, have joined and helped out with the local anti household tax campaigns in their local areas?

    Myself and the brother (Galway region) leafleted and erected public meeting signs so far.


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    #3659
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    mikom wrote: »
    Myself and the brother (Galway region) leafleted and erected public meeting signs so far.

    So have I in my local area,have you gone out knocking on doors as of yet?


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    #3660
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Am Chile wrote: »
    So have I in my local area,have you gone out knocking on doors as of yet?

    Not since my days on the wren. :D


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    #3661
    Slick50
    Registered Users Posts: 1,062 ✭✭✭Slick50


    dvpower wrote: »
    You'll be able to quote it so?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0507/1224296378513.html

    "The briefing paper for Minister for Finance Michael Noonan had disclosed the EU-IMF programme had committed to a site value tax with a €100 “interim fixed household charge” being introduced in 2012, followed by a “full value-based addition” in 2013.
    In the revised draft of the memorandum of understanding (MoU) released last week, a property tax remained as one of the specific tax measures that would be needed in this year’s budget to raise an extra €1.5 billion next year. The MoU stipulates the full site value tax, when introduced in 2013, will raise the charge on each household."


This discussion has been closed.
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