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The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) **SPOILERS for all books & future books**

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Comments

  • #32
    TheKeenMachine
    Registered Users Posts: 388 ✭✭TheKeenMachine


    I came up with a theory last night about Cersei's trial in AWOW (it's probably been mentioned somewhere online already but anyway) - presuming that Ser Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane and the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle is The Hound, I think Martin is setting up Cersei's trial by combat to be a face off between the Clegane brothers with Sandor chosen as the champion of the faith.

    There is a bit of foreshadowing in the earlier books IIRC - Sandor hates Gregor and wants to kill him. Tbh I was a bit disappointed when both died without Sandor's revenge happening

    Thoughts?


  • #33
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    I love the idea of it but something tells me The Hound is at peace on the island and GRRM is going to leave him there.


  • #34
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    ya, wouldn't mind seeing the Hound and Gregorstein/Robert Strong do battle. I just don't see how they get the Hound from where ever he is now to Kings Landing, and fighting on the side of the faith, if he is indeed alive that is.

    Probably no need for spoilers here either, the title should ward off anyone not up to date.

    @podgemonster
    Ya, I remember thinking at the time of reading, that Jamie could be the Valonqar, as it is stated numerous times, that Cersei was the first twin born.


  • #35
    hidinginthebush
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭hidinginthebush


    I came across the theory over on Reddit that the Hound will fight Robert Strong in Cersei's trial, the extra caveat here is that Robert Strong can only be killed by fire, we all know how the hound feels about fire, so that could be an interesting one. I want to hound to remain in peace though. He seems to be seeing out his time digging graves, I think they would do best to leave him well alone.

    Also, to anyone considering a re-read, I'd highly recommend splitting books 4 and 5 up. There's a few guides knocking about on how to order the chapters so the story flows a lot better. I did recently and was surprised at how easily I got through the last two, I remember being almost bored to tears reading Dance the first time.


  • #36
    December2012
    Registered Users Posts: 4,695 ✭✭✭December2012


    I'm sad that the Hound didn't get a better send off so I would love it if he was still alive.


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  • #37
    hidinginthebush
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭hidinginthebush


    December2012 wrote: »
    I'm sad that the Hound didn't get a better send off so I would love it if he was still alive.

    He's deffo still alive. Were told the hound is "at peace" or something like that. And the gravedigger limps around, showing evidence of the injuries the hound last sustained.


  • #38
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    hidinginthebush wrote: »
    He's deffo still alive. Were told the hound is "at peace" or something like that. And the gravedigger limps around, showing evidence of the injuries the hound last sustained.

    This could well be his end in the story. I can't see him coming back into it.


  • #39
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    One thing I was wondering about - the Sand Snakes are heading to King's Landing.
    While the one that's going to embed herself with the Faith can hide there, it's not as if the one that's supposed to join the Small Council can hide.

    So what will Doran do about Aegon if he's after sending one of the Sand Snakes to Kings Landing to basically be a hostage?
    Will he recall her?


  • #40
    hidinginthebush
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭hidinginthebush


    Gbear wrote: »
    One thing I was wondering about - the Sand Snakes are heading to King's Landing.
    While the one that's going to embed herself with the Faith can hide there, it's not as if the one that's supposed to join the Small Council can hide.

    So what will Doran do about Aegon if he's after sending one of the Sand Snakes to Kings Landing to basically be a hostage?
    Will he recall her?

    He might try to still honour the marriage pact that was originally to be Arianne and Viscerys, then Quentyn and Danerys, and propose Aegon marry Arianne. Being still raw about Elia's death, I reckon he won't hesitate in joining up wit the golden company to piss all over the Lannister's parade.


  • #41
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    hidinginthebush wrote: »
    He might try to still honour the marriage pact that was originally to be Arianne and Viscerys, then Quentyn and Danerys, and propose Aegon marry Arianne. Being still raw about Elia's death, I reckon he won't hesitate in joining up wit the golden company to piss all over the Lannister's parade.

    Yeah, that's what I was assuming too.
    Especially seeing as they appeared to have conquered the Stormlands or are about to when they take Storms End.
    Presumably that'll be the end of the Baratheons. Jon Con seems happy enough with Griffon's Roost. Giving Harry Striklands Storm's End and making him overlord of the Storm Lands seems like a bit much. So I wonder what they'll do with it.

    But I wonder what that means for the Sand Snakes on route to KL? Or maybe they haven't left yet.
    It's hard to keep track of them - one's with Areo Hotah and Balon Swann to deal with Darkstar, one is "Alleras the Sphinx" in the Citadel (Don't get using an anagram. Why not just call herself Bob or whatever?), one's going to join the Faith and one's gone to take Doran's spot on the Small Council.


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  • #42
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    What are all your opinions of Aegon being a fake? I think he's Illyrio's son from what I've picked up.


  • #43
    Mr.Prodston
    Registered Users Posts: 16,304 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Prodston


    Deleted User wrote: »
    What are all your opinions of Aegon being a fake? I think he's Illyrio's son from what I've picked up.

    I'm kind of subscribed to him being fake but then I think that Jon Connington isn't a man that would knowingly plot against Rhaegar which leaves me perplexed.

    All isn't as it seems anyway whatever the catch is I don't know


  • #44
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Mr.Prodston wrote: »
    I'm kind of subscribed to him being fake but then I think that Jon Connington isn't a man that would knowingly plot against Rhaegar which leaves me perplexed.

    If he is a fake, Jon Connington is definitely not in on the plot, and believes he truely is Aegon.

    I don't believe he is Aegon, Mummer's Dragon and all that, and especially how it came out of no where.

    Aegon probably believes he is the real Aegon too.


  • #45
    Mr.Prodston
    Registered Users Posts: 16,304 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Prodston


    Mr Freeze wrote: »
    If he is a fake, Jon Connington is definitely not in on the plot, and believes he truely is Aegon.

    I don't believe he is Aegon, Mummer's Dragon and all that, and especially how it came out of no where.

    Aegon probably believes he is the real Aegon too.

    Who "rescued" Aegon though? Back when he was meant to have been murdered? I had in my head that it was Jon but that's not right is it?


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I'd go with Connington and "Aegon" not knowing either. There are a few quotes in the books that have me convinced he is Illyrio's. Illyrio says to Tyrion when he is stating what he wants from it all that he has a personal blood debt to pay for getting Aegon the throne or something along those lines. OK that could be that he is just a Targaryen sympathizer but I don't buy that.

    But...... then why the **** was he helping Visery's and Dany I really don't know.


  • #47
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Mr.Prodston wrote: »
    Who "rescued" Aegon though? Back when he was meant to have been murdered? I had in my head that it was Jon but that's not right is it?

    I don't know how he was rescued or how the plan was hatched.

    Some opportunist, could have thought of it 2 - 4 years after Aegon was killed, and found and brain washed a kid that looked believable as a Targaryen, and then searched for some one to help get the Targaryen on the throne, Jon Connington was a good pawn to get, given his loyalty to the Targaryens, especially given his affection for Rhaegar.


  • #48
    December2012
    Registered Users Posts: 4,695 ✭✭✭December2012


    Mr.Prodston wrote: »
    Who "rescued" Aegon though? Back when he was meant to have been murdered? I had in my head that it was Jon but that's not right is it?

    Wasn't it Varys?


  • #49
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    December2012 wrote: »
    Wasn't it Varys?

    Had to look it up, it was Varys.

    From Wiki:
    A young man considering himself to be Aegon explains his apparent survival to Tyrion Lannister. According to his account, the boy killed during the Sack of King's Landing was a Pisswater prince. He had been born at the Pisswater Bend, a street of King's Landing. His father was a tanner, and his mother had died at birth. The tanner sold his boy to Varys for a jug of Arbor gold wine. The man had other sons, but wanted to experience the taste of Arbor gold once in his life. Varys then arranged the swap between the two infant boys. Elia received the Pisswater prince, Varys took custody of the real Aegon. Tyrion Lannister deduces the rest of the story. When the Pisswater prince was "safely dead", Varys smuggled Aegon across the narrow sea. Varys entrusted the boy to Illyrio Mopatis, who in turn found an adoptive father for Aegon in the person of exiled Lord Jon Connington. Aegon does not comment on Tyrion's deductions.

    According to the recollection of Jon Connington, he had to fake his own death "twelve years" before the present. In 288 AL, five years following the Battle of the Bells, Varys had convinced him that the lie would be necessary for the safety of Aegon. Connington had spent the "five years" of his exile as a member of the Golden Company, and had become the right-hand man to Myles Toyne. To fulfill Varys' plan, Connington first had to be discharged from the Company in disgrace. The crafted story went that he been stealing from its war chest. Then rumors reported that Connington drank himself to death in Lys. In Varys' words, as a gallant exile Connington would be remembered. But few tend to remember thieves, drunks, and cowards. Reputed to be one of the latter, Connington too would be forgotten. Aegon spend most of his life hiding aboard the poleboat Shy Maid. He shared a cabin with his adoptive father.

    Aegon has been trained in matters of military tactics by Jon Connington [30], arms by Rolly Duckfield, in the Faith of the Seven by Septa Lemore, and history and languages by Haldon Halfmaester. He was taught to read and write, and studied history, law, and poetry. He lived with fisherfolk, worked with his hands, swam in rivers, and mended nets. He learned practical things such as washing his own clothes, fishing, cooking, and binding up wounds. He was familiar with hunger, and the fear of being hunted. His education was intended to teach him that kingship was a duty, not a right.

    As yet there is no indication as to whether he has inherited the Targaryen propensity for dragon dreams as Daenerys has. He might have the potential for it, like all those with Targaryen blood, but only some members of this bloodline actually displayed this ability.

    While this makes sense, what doesn't make sense is; Illyrio never mentioned Aegon to Daenerys and Viserys. Maybe Illyrio never trusted Viserys and never believed he would ever take the Iron Throne, and was probably more likely to get himself and Aegon killed, or kill Aegon.

    I just find it had to swallow, that Targaryen supporters had 2 secret plots involving Targaryen heirs at the same time, with Daenerys not knowing of Aegon. Daenerys seems to be really bad at accepting help, The Dornish men for example, when they turned up, it should have been F&%k Meereen, I am off to marry with the Martells and go back to my new armies in Westoros. She might just as easily reject Aegon, if they ever met, but now Aegon is probably a direct threat, as he is gone to take the throne by himself.


  • #50
    December2012
    Registered Users Posts: 4,695 ✭✭✭December2012


    Mr Freeze wrote: »
    Had to look it up, it was Varys.

    From Wiki:



    While this makes sense, what doesn't make sense is; Illyrio never mentioned Aegon to Daenerys and Viserys. Maybe Illyrio never trusted Viserys and never believed he would ever take the Iron Throne, and was probably more likely to get himself and Aegon killed, or kill Aegon.

    I just find it had to swallow, that Targaryen supporters had 2 secret plots involving Targaryen heirs at the same time, with Daenerys not knowing of Aegon. Daenerys seems to be really bad at accepting help, The Dornish men for example, when they turned up, it should have been F&%k Meereen, I am off to marry with the Martells and go back to my new armies in Westoros. She might just as easily reject Aegon, if they ever met, but now Aegon is probably a direct threat, as he is gone to take the throne by himself.

    But I think the primary plan was always to return Aegon to the throne, possibly while keeping Viserys busy going around begging.

    I assume its this
    - the plan is for Aegon to return when the time is right.
    - when Robert is ruling things are "ok",
    - when Robert is dying Illyrio and Varys talk about things being not ready and moving too fast.
    - viserys' death was because of his own annoyingness and nothing to do with I&V.
    - khal drogo only became interested in Westeros when Robert attempted to assassinate Danaerys - again nothing to do with I&V
    - at this stage Aegon is not old enough to seize the throne. He also has no dragons.
    - Robert dies and Joffrey takes control bringing some chaos to the realm with the War of the Five Kings.
    - stories appear of Dany having dragons
    - War rages on, new kings come and go, the faith become militant, Dante shows no indicators that she is coming to Westeros at all
    - Aegon says F this, gets some sell swords and decides to claim his throne while the realm is in chaos
    - Varys, who last seen helped Tyrion get rid of Tywin, now kills Kevan Lannister and Grand Master "Flash" Pycelle.
    - with Cersei to stand trial, the small council changed, it might be felt that now is the right time for Aegon to come and take what's his.


  • #51
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    December2012 wrote: »
    ....it might be felt that now is the right time for Aegon to come and take what's his.

    If he is Aegon!

    Ya I suppose I could buy into the plot of Aegon (real or fake) being the plan all along, and Illyrio just keeping V&D busy for years.

    But Viserys dying, and Daenerys getting Dragons and armies, and Westoros in civil war changed everything, if crowning Aegon was the original plan all along.


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  • #52
    Little_Korean
    Registered Users Posts: 35 ✭Little_Korean


    Just read the Barriston chapter - the Iron Fleet gets to wade into the action in all its black-sailed, kraken-flying glory???

    Oooooooooh, yeah.

    I'm starting to wonder if the series should just be renamed A Song of Salt and Squids, the ironborn are easily among the most entertaining parts of the series.

    Barriston is also a totally kickass character, has touches of a David Gemmell-written character about him, what with the whole mediation on a warrior who's grown old and doesn't necessarily know what to do with himself.


  • #53
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Why wouldn't they tell Doran though? It doesn't make any bloody sense :(


  • #54
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,146 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Illyrio arranged Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo. I think he believed she'd live our her life in relative obscurity as Drogo's Khaleesi whilst Viscerys was always going to get himself killed with his contempt for the Dothraki culture.


  • #55
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Why wouldn't they tell Doran though? It doesn't make any bloody sense :(

    Oh Ya, the secret plot to marry Arraine and Viserys...

    All these questions, just make me think he is definitely a fake, and something Varys and Illyrio came up with a few years after the real Aegon was killed.

    Maybe Aegon was the backup plan, when they realised that Viserys was a fool, so they came up with the fake Aegon plan, and it obviously took years to get the point where it is now, and by then Viserys was dead and Dany had Dragons, so it remained the secondary plan, but then Dany seems to be showing no signs of moving West, so Aegon and co decided to go themselves. (Aegon and co, believe that Aegon is really a Targ tho).


  • #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,016 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Mr Freeze wrote: »
    Oh Ya, the secret plot to marry Arraine and Viserys...

    All these questions, just make me think he is definitely a fake, and something Varys and Illyrio came up with a few years after the real Aegon was killed.

    Maybe Aegon was the backup plan, when they realised that Viserys was a fool, so they came up with the fake Aegon plan, and it obviously took years to get the point where it is now, and by then Viserys was dead and Dany had Dragons, so it remained the secondary plan, but then Dany seems to be showing no signs of moving West, so Aegon and co decided to go themselves. (Aegon and co, believe that Aegon is really a Targ tho).

    Exactly, I posted this on the ASOIAF forum ;

    This makes an awful lot of sense. The second they revealed Aegon in the books I just instantly thought fake. Another thing to consider is surely the people running Dorne would be informed of Aegon actually being alive. From their chapters they seem to be as surprised as everyone else. Also the Red Viper would have known if Doran knew(well you'd presume so)so his shouting at Gregor in their duel wouldn't seem right as in Tyrion IX ASOS the viper is told that the mountain killed Gregor & Elia. The viper shouts at him during the duel about the rape and the murder of children so if he knew Aegon was alive he would have kept it about Elia you'd expect? I really think that Aegon is Illyrio's son, I'd be nearly 100% :cool:


  • #57
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Exactly, I posted this on the ASOIAF forum ;

    Would agree with all of that, except for Aegon being Illyrio son, I didn't notice any hint of that at all in the books.

    I think Aegon, fake or not, will be dead early in The Winds of Winter anyways.


  • #58
    Gbear
    Registered Users Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    There's also the theory that he's Illyrio's son but his wife (possibly the one he really loved) was a Blackfyre, so although he isn't Aegon, (well, unless they named him that) he has a legitimate claim to the throne. In fact the Blackfyres have a more legitmate claim than the Targaryens did. The Targaryens just happened to win the civil war.


  • #59
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    When Tyrion is looking at Aegon he says he can see a hint of violet in his eyes and his hair is clearly dyed to make him untenable as a Targaryen. Makes me think there's Targaryen blood there. That being said, it's hard to know what Illyrio is up to. Tyrion doesn't believe a word of what he says. But why would he want his own son to rule over Westeros? He is mega rich in Pentos and will be even richer should Daenerys or Aegon win out.


  • #60
    Son0vagun
    Registered Users Posts: 1,297 ✭✭✭Son0vagun


    If Aegon is fake and is going to die early on, then what had been the point if introducing him at all?


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  • #61
    hidinginthebush
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,679 ✭✭✭hidinginthebush


    I really hope he doesn't die though, I think varys says that he's been brought up humble, doesn't see ruling as his right, more his duty, as opposed to dany who's always seen the throne as hers by right.


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