kildeal.ie is it a joke

Eoin · 28-10-2008 5:16pm

My experience is that websites that you charge €300 are likely to take up a massively disproportionate amount of your time.

The most common cause of delay on every single site I have worked on has been finalising content. If you don't put in a CMS, then you have to make all the little tweaks that are asked for, which is annoying and time consuming. If you do put in a CMS, then you are not in the €300 - €500 market.

I don't think you can really charge for updates as part of the development process either - so the time really adds up. I only do a bit of occasional work in my spare time, and I just do not find it worth my while to do the small sites.

Anyway - to get back (sort of) on topic: the site critiques you see in this forum are done by people who are looking for problems on the site. That's the nature of a critique, and the nature of the people in the business. Quite often, the point of view of the end user isn't really thought about as much.

One example was someone here who recently posted a site he did for a solicitor. There was lots of valid and helpful suggestions, but at the end of the day, the first version he did would have been absolutely fine for someone who wanted to find out about the company.

So, with that in mind, their portfolio is clearly made up of templates. That's clear to people in the know, but to most people looking for a site, they are decent enough looking sites. Add in a cheap price, and you can see why they get business.

Edit - I think their own site looks appalling by any standard, but obviously people can see past that and at the price tag and the portfolio that they probably don't know are templates.

mewso · 28-10-2008 5:37pm

I think it's a bit ironic though that they are buying templates that are not standards compliant when they could pop in to

http://www.opensourcetemplates.org/
http://www.oswd.org/
http://www.opendesigns.org/

and grab a pretty decent template that is standards compliant (and better for seo as a result), accessible and free. Maybe we should be discussing their stupidity.

Eoin · 28-10-2008 5:43pm

I would say that standards compliance means next to nothing to their clients.

mewso · 28-10-2008 5:47pm

eoin_s wrote: »

I would say that standards compliance means next to nothing to their clients.

I'm not saying it would. I'm saying given a toss up between paying for a non-standards compliant template or downloading a free one that looks as good and comes with little bonuses like compliance/accessibility and so on which should we pick as the designer selling the product.

Eoin · 28-10-2008 5:52pm

Personally, I think the graphic-heavy templates are more likely to wow someone who doesn't know too much about this stuff, more than the rather minimalist compliant templates. Plus, they also sometimes have the added "bonus" of coming with dodgy logos etc that are presumably also sold on.

The Mighty Ken · 28-10-2008 6:49pm

eoin_s wrote: »

I would say that standards compliance means next to nothing to their clients.

I've worked with clients that have difficulty turning on their computers. Doesn't mean I'm not going to do a good job for them just because they don't understand the intricacies of my trade.

There's a gobsmacking amount of ignorance on this thread. Any designers or developers who subscribe to the whole 'race to the bottom' attitude of knocking out poorly built websites for next to nothing should really get out of the industry now before they do anymore damage. There's a word for you - cowboys.

information wrote: »

the above is why web developers make useless sales people, and very few will ever grow a sustainable, profitable company.

While sales people will continue to push sub-standard Web design and development services to uneducated clients and perpetuate the appalling standard of Web design in Ireland. Personally... I'd prefer to fail with my integrity intact.

Eoin · 28-10-2008 6:58pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

I've worked with clients that have difficulty turning on their computers. Doesn't mean I'm not going to do a good job for them just because they don't understand the intricacies of my trade.

Yes, but I wasn't talking about you - I was talking about the crowd that was linked to in the OP, and why it's not particularly ironic that they don't go for standards compliant templates - because they don't care, and the chances are that their clients don't care either.

The Mighty Ken · 28-10-2008 6:59pm

eoin_s wrote: »

Yes, but I wasn't talking about you - I was talking about the crowd that was linked to in the OP, and why it's not particularly ironic that they don't go for standards compliant templates - because they don't care, and the chances are that their clients don't care either.

Indeed... but that doesn't make it right.

AARRRGH · 28-10-2008 7:12pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Any designers or developers who subscribe to the whole 'race to the bottom' attitude of knocking out poorly built websites for next to nothing should really get out of the industry now before they do anymore damage. There's a word for you - cowboys.

Again, if the customer is happy, and if 99% of Internet users are happy, the opinion of an elitist like you is irrelevant.

Just because Kildeal offer cheap websites and use templates does not mean they're cowboys. You can't compete with them on price, and they can't compete with you on standards compliance. Guess which one the customer cares about?

The Mighty Ken · 28-10-2008 7:32pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Again, if the customer is happy, and if 99% of Internet users are happy, the opinion of an elitist like you is irrelevant.

Absolute and utter nonsense. If you're producing poor quality product for your client and they're happy because they don't know the difference then you're a cowboy. Plain and simple.

Being a professional and doing a good, responsible job for your client doesn't make you an elitist. That's just dumb.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Just because Kildeal offer cheap websites and use templates does not mean they're cowboys.

I know. I understand that there's a market for customised templates but unfortunately most template resellers equate themselves to bespoke design/development providers and masquerade as something which they clearly aren't. That makes them cowboys IMO.

AARRRGH wrote: »

You can't compete with them, that's fair enough

I don't sell templates and I work with a very different target audience than template resellers so we're not even in competition with each other.

AARRRGH wrote: »

but to call them cowboys is ridiculous.

Not as ridiculous as saying that advocating Web standards, best practices for usability, accessibility, UX, etc is 'elitist'.

I'm not saying that knocking out templates is a bad business. Making a quick buck usually isn't.

AARRRGH · 28-10-2008 7:38pm

I understand you really care about original design and standards compliance, and I agree those things are nice, but in the real world they're simply not very important.

Tbh you sound like a classically trained musician complaining about popular music. Yeah, it sucks that people like Britney Spears, but that's reality.

You are definitely an elitist

but that's ok, the world needs people like you!

The Mighty Ken · 28-10-2008 7:40pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I understand you really care about original design and standards compliance, and I agree those things are nice, but in the real world they're simply not very important.

Yes they are. You probably just don't understand why.

AARRRGH · 28-10-2008 7:45pm

The Mighty Ken wrote: »

Yes they are. You probably just don't understand why.

Ah... you haven't changed a bit Ken.

I think you'll find most websites are not standards compliant (nor particularly original) yet nearly everyone who uses the Internet hasn't noticed nor gives a damn.

Again, I understand these things are important to you, but just because they're important to you does not mean they're important to everyone else.

Seriously, try to look beyond yourself and see the bigger picture.

The Mighty Ken · 28-10-2008 7:51pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Ah... you haven't changed a bit Ken.

I think you'll find most websites are not standards compliant (nor particularly original) yet nearly everyone who uses the Internet hasn't noticed nor gives a damn.

Again, I understand these things are important to you, but just because they're important to you does not mean they're important to everyone else.

Seriously, try to look beyond yourself and see the bigger picture.

Haha. I don't see what any of this has to do with me personally. If you want to turn this into a personal attack then I suggest your make yourself known publicly at least.

The topic is about whether or not it's okay to knock out low quality, customised templates. Let's stick to it.

heggie · 28-10-2008 9:10pm

if they are not important AARRRGH, why are myself and plenty of others getting work re-doing these cowboy websites?

Perhaps with the slow availability of broadband and general internet access in Ireland, we are running a bit behind other countries, but now more than ever a proper website is very important, and clients who didn't know better originally are starting to realise that.

Webmonkey · 28-10-2008 9:31pm

The attitude of some people on this thread sickens me. Implying that abusing a customer's ignorance, giving them re-sold templates is *okay* once you are making business out of it! - What has this country gone to.

Personally if I was a customer and some day came across a site that looked exactly the same as mine from joe down the road, then that would put me raging *if* I wasn't told that it was a template I was getting. Fair enough if they do, but I doubt it very much they do.

Its no wonder they say "We create a range of designs to suit your needs." - Why don't they just send the customer to the template websites and get them to pick from there instead of tricking them into fact that they are 'designing' these sites for them. I would be even more angry if I was the one that created the templates and seeing business using them as their designs.

I'm sorry, I don't care what people say here, but what they are doing is down right wrong.

Eoin · 28-10-2008 9:52pm

I doubt the people who produce templates for mass use really give a crap who claims designed it, but that is not the point.

I completely agree that it is wrong to sell a template based on the premise that it is a unique design. That, of course, also applies to those who use compliant templates from the likes of oswd.org. The compliance, or lack thereof, isn't as downright dishonest and bad practice.

For the record, my earlier post was to say how I could see how they are getting business: cheap prices, colourful and shiny portfolio, and most likely clueless customers.

AARRRGH · 28-10-2008 11:21pm

Webmonkey wrote: »

The attitude of some people on this thread sickens me... What has this country gone to... I don't care what people say here, but what they are doing is down right wrong.

Ah will you stop being so dramatic. They're just basic websites based on a template. Seriously now, their customers want a cheap website and they are giving them a cheap website.

If they were charging their customers a few thousand, and claiming it was original design and standards compliant, I would agree that they are a bit of a rip-off, but with some of the replies here you'd swear they were mugging old grannies.

EDIT: For the record, I don't like their websites and would never use their service, but that doesn't mean other people shouldn't be entitled to use their service and be happy with them. Not everything needs to be fancy pants.

information · 29-10-2008 10:44am

Webmonkey wrote: »

The attitude of some people on this thread sickens me. Implying that abusing a customer's ignorance, giving them re-sold templates is *okay* once you are making business out of it! - What has this country gone to.

You have your own opinion and you are so caught up in it, that you can even understand what other people are posting.
No one ever said it was fine to trick clients into thinking they are getting a bespoke website and give them a template, you are changing the arguement to suit your point.

1: kildeal sell template websites (they may also do other stuff also)
2: You assume that they tell their clients that each site is unique to them, they could very well tell the customers taht this is a template and used by a few other companies on the web, that is how we can charge such a good price

Webmonkey wrote: »

I'm sorry, I don't care what people say here, but what they are doing is down right wrong.

You don't know what they are doing, what you think they do, and what they actually do, could be completely different.

***My only point is that there is a market for cheap websites and templates are fine for this purpose/some people.
That is a fact, not opinion, that's what the OP said this thread was about, discussing template companies.
People here are attacking kildeal based on what they think they do, with no facts to back it up, shame on you all.

donnaille · 29-10-2008 1:31pm

2: You assume that they tell their clients that each site is unique to them, they could very well tell the customers taht this is a template and used by a few other companies on the web, that is how we can charge such a good price

Pretty obvious they aren't telling the customers they are templates with items on the homepage such as
"OUR WEBSITES STAND OUT FROM THE CROWD !!"

and also "Step 2" on this image -
http://www.kildeal.ie/images/Image4.jpg
All of this implies unique to me and I can imagine it implies the same to their customers, so I can't really see how your argument stands on this.

AARRRGH · 29-10-2008 1:54pm

donnaille wrote: »

Pretty obvious they aren't telling the customers they are templates with items on the homepage such as
"OUR WEBSITES STAND OUT FROM THE CROWD !!"

That's typical sales talk and is used in every industry.

If you want to change the topic to "sales people are sleazy" well then I'll be your best friend

but I think kildeal are getting a bit of an unfair deal just because they make cheap websites.

donnaille · 29-10-2008 3:18pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

That's typical sales talk and is used in every industry.

If you want to change the topic to "sales people are sleazy" well then I'll be your best friend but I think kildeal are getting a bit of an unfair deal just because they make cheap websites.

Just pointing out the flaws in previous arguments.

Solarpitch · 29-10-2008 4:46pm

KilDeal is probably after getting more traffic than any of our sites over the last few days

... you know what they say... any publicity is good publicity! I can almost hear there sales phone ringing off the hook!...almost :rolleyes:

Webmonkey · 29-10-2008 6:53pm

To be fair I think a mod should take out all references to the actual company name. As bad as they are, I would hate to have this thead appear 5/6th in google search when searching for their company name.

Axwell · 29-10-2008 7:07pm

Solarpitch wrote: »

I can almost hear there sales phone ringing off the hook!...almost :rolleyes:

I think thats one of the problems another poster had with them, the phone was ringing off the hook and has been for the last month when he rang about a problem

AARRRGH · 29-10-2008 9:03pm

Webmonkey wrote: »

To be fair I think a mod should take out all references to the actual company name. As bad as they are, I would hate to have this thead appear 5/6th in google search when searching for their company name.

I agree. This thread could potentially ruin their business.

mewso · 29-10-2008 9:55pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

I agree. This thread could potentially ruin their business.

How so? We are after all just a bunch of web developers spouting off about standards that the average punter cares not a jot about.

AARRRGH · 29-10-2008 11:09pm

musician wrote: »

How so? We are after all just a bunch of web developers spouting off about standards that the average punter cares not a jot about.

This thread is now in the first page of results when you search for kildeal. As it is a highly negative thread, it is likely it will turn some potential customers off their business.

It hasn't been a reasonable discussion, but the average Joe may not understand that. All he'll see is kildeal are a joke and a disgrace, which is really unfair.

donnaille · 29-10-2008 11:14pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

This thread is now in the first page of results when you search for kildeal. As it is a highly negative thread, it is likely it will turn some potential customers off their business.

It hasn't been a reasonable discussion, but the average Joe may not understand that. All he'll see is kildeal are a joke and a disgrace, which is really unfair.

Fully agree that some of the wording may be a bit harsh but the comments are just peoples opinion, I'll edit my first post and remove any of the harsh words on the company if you like?

edit: seems I can't edit it, if one of the mods would like to change the thread title I have no problem with that, I really don't want to affect the company's business.

Webmonkey · 30-10-2008 6:53pm

Well there you go.

kildeal.ie is it a joke

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