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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    I'd question much of this. It is impossible to prove or disprove a rise or fall in moral standards, but taking Ireland as an example, it is possible to argue that we are a more moral society than we were 100 years ago. Poverty has lessened and people have access to food, healthcare, a roof over the head in most cases, and a lot more political and personal freedom. Capital punishment is a thing of the past. What is more, most people would reject the notion of taking these achievements away. Now we do have some problems specific to recent years such as the oversexualisation of children at too young an age, obsession with physical appearances and so on, but sometimes a little perspective is needed.

    I prefer not to talk about illegitimacy in this context - for a long time the stigma of illegitimacy was so great that it was quite understandable that a woman might feel an abortion was the only way out. Infidelity is as old as humanity, as the Bible shows.

    The advances in the rights of women in the last century have been remarkable and to say that they have been reduced simply to objects of men's pleasure simply isn't the case.

    I'd add that I'm against abortion, but we can't turn the clock back to some imaginary golden age. We need to deal with the world as it is and focus on the reasons why abortion is in demand, and seek to remove those reasons.

    I agree with you in that the STANDARD OF LIVING, is much better than 100 years ago, but the Pope was referring to SEXUAL MORAL STANDARDS,which I agree is on a downward spiral.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Who is suggesting that?

    I would have thought that it was just clear that taking someone else's life is wrong. I don't believe it is a woman's decision to kill someone else in the process. That's where the ethical issues arise, and one needn't claim that it is any organisation. Over here, there was a lot of publicity to the fact that people use abortion as a means of gender selection.

    Do you think that a woman should have the right to abort a child simply because the child is a girl? That's what absolute pro-abortion entails.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    philologos wrote: »
    Who is suggesting that?

    I would have thought that it was just clear that taking someone else's life is wrong. I don't believe it is a woman's decision to kill someone else in the process. That's where the ethical issues arise, and one needn't claim that it is any organisation. Over here, there was a lot of publicity to the fact that people use abortion as a means of gender selection.

    Do you think that a woman should have the right to abort a child simply because the child is a girl? That's what absolute pro-abortion entails.

    That is such a miniscule amount of the people that have them. Truth is, you will never find a forum anywhere where women can express their feelings about the aftermath because it's such a hard topic. And even if you did read what it's like for a normal woman with a crisis pregnancy (crisis pregnancy being defined in this instance as a single woman finding out shes pregnant, with no money, or no job, or still in school), I know your views wouldn't change because for now, the law agrees with you.
    I think the legal definition of when life begins should be set by the government, and move from there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Do you oppose all forms and reasons for Abortion?

    Actually this isn't aimed directly at you PDN, but all those here who oppose it.

    If so, why? Is it purely for religious reasons?

    Why? Because I don't think it is a good thing to kill babies. Nothing to do with religion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Well imo, if you have that opinion, you would have no problem making it illegal for single fathers to immigrate or leave the country without informing the Gardaì until their child turns 18, and supporting that woman in the upbringing of her child while she goes back to work or education.

    Yes, because the only alternative to supporting abortion is to be a fascist. :rolleyes:


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭Deank


    PDN wrote: »
    Why? Because I don't think it is a good thing to kill babies. Nothing to do with religion.

    You've obviously never been in a situation where you've had to make a decision on abortion, take the blinkers off and respect other people for their life choices....


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Benny_Cake wrote: »
    I'd question much of this. It is impossible to prove or disprove a rise or fall in moral standards, but taking Ireland as an example, it is possible to argue that we are a more moral society than we were 100 years ago. Poverty has lessened and people have access to food, healthcare, a roof over the head in most cases, and a lot more political and personal freedom. Capital punishment is a thing of the past. What is more, most people would reject the notion of taking these achievements away. Now we do have some problems specific to recent years such as the oversexualisation of children at too young an age, obsession with physical appearances and so on, but sometimes a little perspective is needed.

    I prefer not to talk about illegitimacy in this context - for a long time the stigma of illegitimacy was so great that it was quite understandable that a woman might feel an abortion was the only way out. Infidelity is as old as humanity, as the Bible shows.

    The advances in the rights of women in the last century have been remarkable and to say that they have been reduced simply to objects of men's pleasure simply isn't the case.

    I'd add that I'm against abortion, but we can't turn the clock back to some imaginary golden age. We need to deal with the world as it is and focus on the reasons why abortion is in demand, and seek to remove those reasons.

    I think I agree with this Benny, but with a proviso - that is, that we are responsible for eachother if we claim to be Christian, and we ought to seek what is right with courage and imagination, a 'golden age' is exactly what Christ calls us towards - fairness, mercy etc. and not judging eachother without taking the plank out first.

    I don't think that we need necessarily condemn, but offer the alternative; how can we do that when nobody is perfect anyways, but with some courage?

    Sincerely though, strange as the thread started off - it does call to mind how we decide the course that is set, not only for us, but also for our future offspring, the ramifications - This debate is vast and will set a long course into the future, any changes in relation to the value of human life from it's beginning to end will always influence future generations- there are ramifications.

    There is no going back, it's important that people know it, and make sure that they are satisfied - This is not a willy nilly debate, this is 'life'...weigh it carefully from when it becomes valuable - we've made many mistakes as to when it doesn't - but this is a weightier issue imo anyway.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    PDN wrote: »
    Well imo, if you have that opinion, you would have no problem making it illegal for single fathers to immigrate or leave the country without informing the Gardaì until their child turns 18, and supporting that woman in the upbringing of her child while she goes back to work or education.

    Yes, because the only alternative to supporting abortion is to be a fascist. :rolleyes:


    Well youre essentially preventing the female involved to make a decision and devote the rest of her life to the upbringing of a child she doesn't want, or giving it up for adoption only to be more than likely confronted by a confused teenager or young adult wanting to know why they weren't wanted. The male should bear some responsibility.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    hattoncracker: That's irrelevant. The idea of abortion being a free choice is that realistically a person can choose to have an abortion (essentially killing their child) for any reason.

    The question is when is it justified at all to have one other than in a life or death medical situation?

    Also given that I live in London, the law doesn't agree with me. Unfortunately nearly 200,000 unborn children are killed in the UK in a single year. 50 million in the entire world on average.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭Deank


    philologos wrote: »
    hattoncracker: That's irrelevant. The idea of abortion being a free choice is that realistically a person can choose to have an abortion (essentially killing their child) for any reason.

    The question is when is it justified at all to have one other than in a life or death medical situation?

    Also given that I live in London, the law doesn't agree with me. Unfortunately nearly 200,000 unborn children are killed in the UK in a single year. 50 million in the entire world on average.

    Fact is the world is over populated as it is, most countries are struggling to provide a decent health care service, and if a mother / parent decide to abort a pregnancy for whatever reason, financial / medical / psychological reasons who are you to judge.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Deank wrote: »
    Please tell me why a religious organisation should have dictate on deciding whether a woman can or cannot have an abortion, that decision is purely up to her and her partner to decide, church, religion, politics should not come into it.
    I'm get increasingly tired of the church / Vatican still running / ruining this country. IMO no religion better life for all on this planet.

    Let me tell you something Deank. The 'religious organisation' is pretty much made up of people who live on the same space on earth that you do, i.e. in the same country, born and bred.

    That said, 'you' are free in this country to do whatever you wish within the laws of the land. As a an Irish Catholic who loves free choice for very many reasons I will value yours- but please don't whinge and moan that other citizens of the very same country you walk on have different values to you - that's life! It happens.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    philologos wrote: »
    hattoncracker: That's irrelevant. The idea of abortion being a free choice is that realistically a person can choose to have an abortion (essentially killing their child) for any reason.

    The question is when is it justified at all to have one other than in a life or death medical situation?

    If the parents are not in a position financially or emotionally to be a parent, or theyre too young, etc. then my opinion, they should be allowed to have one. Abortion is not something that 99% of women take lightly, which is what some of you are under the illusion of.

    But thats my opinion, and you have yours. I just do not believe that the government has a legal right to make that decision for someone. Men in suits should not have any right to withhold that choice in this country from a woman.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    Deank wrote: »
    You've obviously never been in a situation where you've had to make a decision on abortion, take the blinkers off and respect other people for their life choices....

    So should we respect the life choices of those who want to kill a 5-year old, or their grandmother?

    And, just for the record, don't ever presume as to what situation anyone else has or hasn't been in.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    It is possible to not have a child before one even contemplates abortion. If one can't afford to have a child or support one, why are they risking this in the first place? Why not wait until one can provide more stability?

    This is one of the reasons why Christians promote waiting until marriage because then it is certain that the marriage would be a stable place to raise children in.

    By the by, you're putting words into my mouth in that post. I never said anything about anyone taking anything lightly. I'd like if you would stop doing that.

    As for having your opinion, I don't personally believe that all opinions are equally valid. I even believe many opinions are dangerous.

    Finally, you seem to have this notion that this is all about men. Honestly, there are plenty of pro-life / anti-abortion women out there.
    Deank wrote: »
    Fact is the world is over populated as it is, most countries are struggling to provide a decent health care service, and if a mother / parent decide to abort a pregnancy for whatever reason, financial / medical / psychological reasons who are you to judge.

    I'm just telling things as I see them.

    I believe it's ethically wrong to kill a child at any stage. I don't believe that people should be condemned to death before they're born. What I would propose would be a mechanism for helping women through pregnancy rather than the promotion of abortion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker



    As a an Irish Catholic who loves free choice for very many reasons I will value yours- but please don't whinge and moan that other citizens of the very same country you walk on have different values to you - that's life! It happens.


    If you believe that, then I'm assuming you wouldn't object to abortion in some form being legalised in this country?


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭Deank


    lmaopml wrote: »
    Let me tell you something Deank. The 'religious organisation' is pretty much made up of people who live on the same space on earth that you do, i.e. in the same country, born and bred.

    That said, 'you' are free in this country to do whatever you wish within the laws of the land. As a an Irish Catholic who loves free choice for very many reasons I will value yours- but please don't whinge and moan that other citizens of the very same country you walk on have different values to you - that's life! It happens.

    That's where you are so wrong, the Catholic church in this country has had such a strong hold over people through fear over decades I cringe at the very thought of the church still being relevant in 21st century Ireland, the sad fact of the matter is that it has a stronger grip on society than most people realize, time for us all to accept that religion is a poison chalice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    philologos wrote: »
    It is possible to not have a child before one even contemplates abortion. If one can't afford to have a child or support one, why are they risking this in the first place? Why not wait until one can provide more stability?

    This is one of the reasons why Christians promote waiting until marriage because then it is certain that the marriage would be a stable place to raise children in.

    By the by, you're putting words into my mouth in that post. I never said anything about anyone taking anything lightly. I'd like if you would stop doing that.

    As for having your opinion, I don't personally believe that all opinions are equally valid. I even believe many opinions are dangerous.

    Finally, you seem to have this notion that this is all about men. Honestly, there are plenty of pro-life / anti-abortion women out there.
    Deank wrote: »
    Fact is the world is over populated as it is, most countries are struggling to provide a decent health care service, and if a mother / parent decide to abort a pregnancy for whatever reason, financial / medical / psychological reasons who are you to judge.

    I'm just telling things as I see them.

    I believe it's ethically wrong to kill a child at any stage. I don't believe that people should be condemned to death before they're born. What I would propose would be a mechanism for helping women through pregnancy rather than the promotion of abortion.


    And what about after the pregnancy? Are you going to pay for nappies, clothes, etc? Help the woman and her husband rear the child, because adoption in this country Is illegal for a married couple.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,237 ✭✭✭Deank


    PDN wrote: »
    So should we respect the life choices of those who want to kill a 5-year old, or their grandmother?

    And, just for the record, don't ever presume as to what situation anyone else has or hasn't been in.

    Abortion has nothing to do with killing a 5 year old or a grandmother, it's about terminating a fetus, and I never assume anything, am a good reader of minds though, off the soap box with yeh now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    If the parents are not in a position financially or emotionally to be a parent, or theyre too young, etc. then my opinion, they should be allowed to have one. Abortion is not something that 99% of women take lightly, which is what some of you are under the illusion of.

    But thats my opinion, and you have yours. I just do not believe that the government has a legal right to make that decision for someone. Men in suits should not have any right to withhold that choice in this country from a woman.

    No, men AND women of this country have a voice! That's what we fought for, to pass legislation that effects not only ourselves but that of future generations too, the guys who thought up our constitution actually understood that it could be edited and also understood that any 'edit' would be very difficult to revoke - it's very unique, a treasure. I might add, it's a treasure, and not to be bought and sold.

    The Government, are only representative of people in any given age - and we have stood on the shoulders of some kind of Giants - if you think them leprechauns, well be done with it, and for shame.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    I bet the muppet who submitted the original post under an alias is splitting his/her ribs at this thread. It was posted to spark fury from those who hold these issues of religion and abortion to heart. Maybe some focus should be given to the other issue of our born babies with little, or no chance of a decent life, because their folks are junkies, wheeling them round in the freezing cold, with barely a stitch to keep them warm, while the junkie bangs up on a busy street and nothing is ever done. Maybe if that problem is sorted, we can really put a focus on properly and morally managing the issue of abortion, which will always be one of high emotion on both sides of the fence.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    To clarify the world is not overpopulated.

    hattoncracker: Adoption is an option that would allow the child to live.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    lmaopml wrote: »
    If the parents are not in a position financially or emotionally to be a parent, or theyre too young, etc. then my opinion, they should be allowed to have one. Abortion is not something that 99% of women take lightly, which is what some of you are under the illusion of.

    But thats my opinion, and you have yours. I just do not believe that the government has a legal right to make that decision for someone. Men in suits should not have any right to withhold that choice in this country from a woman.

    No, men AND women of this country have a voice! That's what we fought for, to pass legislation that effects not only ourselves but that of future generations too, the guys who thought up our constitution actually understood that it could be edited and also understood that any 'edit' would be very difficult to revoke - it's very unique, a treasure. I might add, it's a treasure, and not to be bought and sold.

    The Government, are only representative of people in any given age - and we have stood on the shoulders of some kind of Giants - if you think them leprechauns, well be done with it, and for shame.

    I am ashamed. The fact that in the 21st century a western country as advanced ad us is having this debate is laughable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    And what about after the pregnancy? Are you going to pay for nappies, clothes, etc? Help the woman and her husband rear the child, because adoption in this country Is illegal for a married couple.

    That's why the state provides children's allowance among other things,to help bear the cost of child-rearing, not to mention that the SVDP Society is a Catholic Agency that helps people who are struggling! Also families help each other! I've lost count on the the amount of times my parents helped us with money when we were rearing our family, and it was a lot harder 30 years ago than it is today!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    philologos wrote: »
    To clarify the world is not overpopulated.

    hattoncracker: Adoption is an option that would allow the child to live.


    Can't give a child up if youre married. And single women with unwanted pregnancies should not be treated like incubators.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭goz83


    Actually, men don't really have the voice I am afraid in the vast majority of cases. Woman wants abortion, man wants to keep the baby and offers to raise baby alone....woman wants abortion, woman gets abortion. Equal rights is swinging in the other direction. Boy of 15 has sex with girl of 17. Boy gets done for having under age sex. Woman farts in a lift, man gets blamed for it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Can't give a child up if youre married. And single women with unwanted pregnancies should not be treated like incubators.

    If you're married, it's extremely unlikely you'd opt for abortion as far as I can tell. I don't know if what you're saying is true though.

    Secondly, it's about a compromise IMO. It's wrong to kill a child, but it is wrong to leave a woman to bear something like this alone. Denying a child life is fundamentally wrong IMO and I can't support abortion for that reason and I never will.

    If single people waited until marriage, and indeed if sexuality was expressed only within marriage. I can guarantee you that 99% of this issue wouldn't exist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    And what about after the pregnancy? Are you going to pay for nappies, clothes, etc? Help the woman and her husband rear the child, because adoption in this country Is illegal for a married couple.

    That's why the state provides children's allowance among other things,to help bear the cost of child-rearing, not to mention that the SVDP Society is a Catholic Agency that helps people who are struggling! Also families help each other! I've lost count on the the amount of times my parents helped us with money when we were rearing our family, and it was a lot harder 30 years ago than it is today!

    Thats naíve. Totally so.

    Adoption is not for everyone. And not everyone wants to have their lives paid for by the state.
    Life is not as black and white as you think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,267 ✭✭✭gimmebroadband


    Can't give a child up if youre married. And single women with unwanted pregnancies should not be treated like incubators.

    There is always fostering, until the parents can provide for their child!

    No sex = no pregnancy!


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,091 ✭✭✭hattoncracker


    goz83 wrote: »
    Actually, men don't really have the voice I am afraid in the vast majority of cases. Woman wants abortion, man wants to keep the baby and offers to raise baby alone....woman wants abortion, woman gets abortion. Equal rights is swinging in the other direction. Boy of 15 has sex with girl of 17. Boy gets done for having under age sex. Woman farts in a lift, man gets blamed for it.


    And if, about 8 months into the pregnancy the man changes his mind and immigrates after begging her not to have an abortion? And it does happen, I know someone this happened to.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    And if, about 8 months into the pregnancy the man changes his mind and immigrates after begging her not to have an abortion? And it does happen, I know someone this happened to.

    That's another problem which is equally immoral.

    Both are things which are wrong. Both should be condemned. If people waited until they were in a stable marriage, there wouldn't be situations like those in the vast majority of cases. The messes of fathers running from children, and unplanned pregnancy, and of abortion are all the result of a rejection of traditional sexual ethics.


This discussion has been closed.
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