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Dysfunctional insurance market strikes again (older used cars in the firing line)

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Comments

  • #482
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,348 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Nate--IRL-- wrote: »
    I feel there is a bit of truth to this. I can't imagine the 15+ market is small. It does feel like a knee jerk reaction, to balance whatever equation for this quarter year etc, that a company must meet.

    Financial business persons, tend not to view past their next bonus. I feel that somebody is trying to make up for a previous fúck up.

    EDIT:- I'm not trying to justify this gouging though...just how it might arise.

    Nate
    Figures quoted in today's media suggest the 15+ market is around 250,000 vehicles.


  • #483
    FishOnABike
    Registered Users Posts: 4,348 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    beauf wrote: »
    They said existing customers renewals would not be hiked. It's only for new customers. Mine was a good bit dearer but had to do the usual del boy haggling and it ended only slightly up from last year.
    This sort of quote the customer what we think we can get away with is what gives the general public the perception of the insurance industry being chancers and dodgy dealers.

    If your original quotation was accurately based on risk and margins there would not be any scope to reduce it from 'a good bit dearer' to 'slightly up from last year'. The fact that it can be reduced indicates that the original quotation was nothing short of underhanded conartistry.


  • #484
    CJhaughey
    Registered Users Posts: 14,906 ✭✭✭✭CJhaughey


    FishOnABike wrote: »
    Figures quoted in today's media suggest the 15+ market is around 250,000 vehicles.
    I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone from the SIMI had had a word in a couple of ears and promised that things could be made better if certain policies were implemented.


  • #485
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    CJhaughey wrote: »
    I wouldn't be at all surprised if someone from the SIMI had had a word in a couple of ears and promised that things could be made better if certain policies were implemented.

    It would certainly be in their interest if lots of people were needing to upgrade cars due to this - not just this year but EVERY YEAR unless this gets sorted.

    Standby for "lobbying" for scrappage schemes to "help" those with cars of 15 years or older - to "facilitate them" in buying a new 161 Dacia Sandero.


  • #486
    jimgoose
    Registered Users Posts: 20,174 ✭✭✭✭jimgoose


    Old diesel wrote: »
    It would certainly be in their interest if lots of people were needing to upgrade cars due to this - not just this year but EVERY YEAR unless this gets sorted.

    Standby for "lobbying" for scrappage schemes to "help" those with cars of 15 years or older - to "facilitate them" in buying a new 161 Dacia Sandero.

    From my cold, dead hand. To reject that part of the Buddha that attends to the fettling of sixteen-year-old Jaaags is to miss the Buddha entirely. ;)


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  • #487
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    Just on the age of car thing.


  • #488
    Filmer Paradise
    Registered Users Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭Filmer Paradise


    Been reading this thread with some interest.

    Jeez. What'll they think of next?:mad: Looks like you can use your NCT disc to wipe your arse if you drive a '00 or older car!

    I drive a '01 hatch. 1.4 & low milage, handy little yoke to tip around in. (We use the wife's car as the main family vehicle).

    Insured it yesterday for 320E. I'd hoped to get another few years out of it...

    Now it seems that next year I'll be faced with a huge bill for insurance & worse still, the car would be worth zip cos nobody else could insure it either.

    I'd have no choice but to scrap a perfectly good car that's got a current NCT & deemed roadworthy by the authorities.

    Words fail TBH.:mad::mad::mad:


  • #489
    Filmer Paradise
    Registered Users Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭Filmer Paradise


    20/30 years ago, a 10 year old car was a wreck.

    Rust was the main problem, along with poor quality control with manufacturers.

    Since the late '80s the rust problem started to become a non-issue with cars.

    In the last 10/15 years the prospect of running and maintaining a 15/20 year old car became a viable prospect.

    In my last post I said I have a 14 year old car. Nothing wrong with it. Goes grand, NCT and all...

    Loads of people like me run cars like this. We pay our bills, do things the right way. All legit. All grand....However......

    The powers that be see the common Paddy getting a break on something, getting some value on something for a change..

    Now that won't do. No Sir.

    Invent some sort of rule to gouge more money out 'Paddy'. Expect him to bend over & take it up the arse, as usual.:rolleyes:

    We signed up to the NCT years ago on the promise that we would get cheaper insurance premiums.

    Well the there's a joke for a start! And the joke is on the Irish motorist, whose been bent over a table & been ridden for all he's worth.

    Enough is enough!

    Like it or not, this country is still in recession for a lot of people.

    Anybody who tries to justify this kind of carry on is as bad as the people that ran this country into the ground in the first place.:mad:


  • #490
    carzony
    Registered Users Posts: 2,780 ✭✭✭carzony


    I just hope people come together and fight this nonsense. Irish Water would be the most recent example of this and believe me that won't last long.....

    250,000 customers is something no industry can afford to lose.. I don't think this 'rule' will last long?


  • #491
    Filmer Paradise
    Registered Users Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭Filmer Paradise


    carzony wrote: »
    I just hope people come together and fight this nonsense. Irish Water would be the most recent example of this and believe me that won't last long.....

    250,000 customers is something no industry can afford to lose.. I don't think this 'rule' will last long?

    And there's the joke right there.

    'Industry'. Yeah right. No such thing as car making, let alone car assembley in this country for donkey's years.

    A load of car salesmen dictating what we should drive to fill their own pockets.

    And Paddy has to pay for it all.

    The usual.


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  • #492
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    I think it's very suspicious that two companies have decided to follow the same line on this at the same time. It smacks of collusion.

    fBD also refused me a quote. Aviva didn't refuse but it was extortionate.

    I like older cars because they are metal, not fibreglass, and have minimal electronics.... Much cheaper to fix if something does go wrong.


  • #493
    JJJJNR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭JJJJNR


    IMO this a case of people being forced to purchase new cars to stimulate growth, are things really that bad in the fleet of Irish cars, I dont think so, so we now have to be nannied into buying a new car, similar to taxi drivers. This is a step to far in "middle squeeze economics". So what about students that dont have ways to get to college apart from driving a 95 corolla, I think a boycott of these insurers is the only way forward with this.


  • #494
    dr.fuzzenstein
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,635 ✭✭✭✭dr.fuzzenstein


    But how do you boycott insurers?
    They have said quite clearly "kindly fcuk off if you're driving an older car".
    So now what? Drive without insurance? Not an option. They hold all the cards, they decide the deal and we get fcuked up the arse.
    Unless some new, miraculous insurance company comes to Ireland and decides to give out cheap insurance to older cars.
    Not going to happen. This suits the insurance companies, they just want accountants driving corollas, the government gets more money from higher premiums and more tax take, car dealers will sell more cars at a higher price, everyone wins, except people driving cars and trying to make a living, but they get fcuked all the time anyway and nobody cares for them.
    Can anyone name a party that has promised to take on and reform the fcuked up legal sector that likes to award tens of thousands of euros for scratches and owies? Maybe if this state wide theft, subsided by the legal sector was stamped out, we'd have a chance.
    Because the insurance companies know that judges knowingly award stupid money to people who are very obviously scamming the system, they have given up, they just throw money at the problem.


  • #495
    Supergurrier
    Registered Users Posts: 7,288 ✭✭✭Supergurrier


    Wtb reg-o type system like in aus/us


  • #496
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    Are there any non Irish insurance companies within the EU that will insure Irish cars?


  • #497
    To Elland Back
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭To Elland Back


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    But how do you boycott insurers?
    They have said quite clearly "kindly fcuk off if you're driving an older car".
    So now what? Drive without insurance? Not an option. They hold all the cards, they decide the deal and we get fcuked up the arse.
    Unless some new, miraculous insurance company comes to Ireland and decides to give out cheap insurance to older cars.
    Not going to happen. This suits the insurance companies, they just want accountants driving corollas, the government gets more money from higher premiums and more tax take, car dealers will sell more cars at a higher price, everyone wins, except people driving cars and trying to make a living, but they get fcuked all the time anyway and nobody cares for them.
    Can anyone name a party that has promised to take on and reform the fcuked up legal sector that likes to award tens of thousands of euros for scratches and owies? Maybe if this state wide theft, subsided by the legal sector was stamped out, we'd have a chance.
    Because the insurance companies know that judges knowingly award stupid money to people who are very obviously scamming the system, they have given up, they just throw money at the problem.

    This post sums up the thread IMO


  • #498
    Riverireland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 833 ✭✭✭Riverireland


    zeffabelli wrote: »
    fBD also refused me a quote. Aviva didn't refuse but it was extortionate.

    I like older cars because they are metal, not fibreglass, and have minimal electronics.... Much cheaper to fix if something does go wrong.

    OH rang Blue Insurance and they are only insuring cars under 10 years old, said that is all they're allowed to do....... By whom or why I wonder.


  • #499
    jamesbondings
    Registered Users Posts: 2,201 ✭✭✭jamesbondings


    Herself has a 15 year old daihatsu coure.. (look it up, smaller than a corsa.) not even her own insurer would cover her. Those who quoted her were coming in at between 800 and 1300....for a 28 year old lady with 8 years no claims bonus. Nothing wrong with the car ever and the average premium over the last few years was 280. She ended up getting covered by 25plus (aig) for 380 ish......and now she is looking to change the car. The car she loves. It has ran constantly with no complaints bar your normal maintenance issues. It was her first car and it has taken her to the UK and back filled with her stuff. Really hope next year she gets quoted something reasonable so she can keep it. Otherwise it will have to go.


  • #500
    Liam McPoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    Slightly off topic but I was reading another forum and came across a post I had made in my old account about 2.5 years ago.

    Link.

    Exactly what I predicted would happen, did happen.

    Just goes to show that contrary to what some people in here think, people that work in the insurance industry actually know how the insurance industry works.

    Who knew!


    ;)


  • #501
    kuro2k
    Registered Users Posts: 568 ✭✭✭kuro2k


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    But how do you boycott insurers?
    They have said quite clearly "kindly fcuk off if you're driving an older car".
    So now what? Drive without insurance? Not an option.

    You boycott the insurers in question by refusing to purchase any other insurance product from them such as home, travel and health, simply really


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  • #502
    JJJJNR
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,791 ✭✭✭JJJJNR


    kuro2k wrote: »
    You boycott the insurers in question by refusing to purchase any other insurance product from them such as home, travel and health, simply really

    Exactly what I mean! There are sites that will give a lot of quotes from different sources for insurance, make sure you use them! My health insurance policy is up for renewal and I'll be moving.


  • #503
    zeffabelli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,516 ✭✭✭zeffabelli


    kuro2k wrote: »
    You boycott the insurers in question by refusing to purchase any other insurance product from them such as home, travel and health, simply really

    Or a collective boycott of the two most dominant insurers would force competition.


  • #504
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    jamesbondings wrote: »
    Herself has a 15 year old daihatsu coure.. (look it up, smaller than a corsa.) not even her own insurer would cover her. Those who quoted her were coming in at between 800 and 1300....for a 28 year old lady with 8 years no claims bonus. Nothing wrong with the car ever and the average premium over the last few years was 280. She ended up getting covered by 25plus (aig) for 380 ish......and now she is looking to change the car. The car she loves. It has ran constantly with no complaints bar your normal maintenance issues. It was her first car and it has taken her to the UK and back filled with her stuff. Really hope next year she gets quoted something reasonable so she can keep it. Otherwise it will have to go.

    (personally) - id keep the car for the moment - couple of things to bear in mind.

    1) Shes now insured for 380 - she can keep driving until NEARER the renewal date.

    2) That 25 plus AIG crowd are clearly risk assessing different to everyone else on this example. Hopefully they MAY do the same next year - for a car that she really likes - its worth taking the risk (imo) of keeping it at least until renewal date.

    3) Replacement cars - okay - thing to look at here - is what will she look to upgrade to. To me if you can get a quote for say 700 - then buying a 6 grand car to get quotes for 400 euro is rather pointless. Especially if it means giving up a car you actually like for a 6 k car you actually hate. Life is just too short.


  • #505
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    kuro2k wrote: »
    You boycott the insurers in question by refusing to purchase any other insurance product from them such as home, travel and health, simply really

    And if you have a newer car under 15 - you don't insure THAT with them either :)


  • #506
    Old diesel
    Registered Users Posts: 5,786 ✭✭✭Old diesel


    Filmer Paradise wrote: »
    Been reading this thread with some interest.

    Jeez. What'll they think of next?:mad: Looks like you can use your NCT disc to wipe your arse if you drive a '00 or older car!

    I drive a '01 hatch. 1.4 & low milage, handy little yoke to tip around in. (We use the wife's car as the main family vehicle).

    Insured it yesterday for 320E. I'd hoped to get another few years out of it...

    Now it seems that next year I'll be faced with a huge bill for insurance & worse still, the car would be worth zip cos nobody else could insure it either.

    I'd have no choice but to scrap a perfectly good car that's got a current NCT & deemed roadworthy by the authorities.

    Words fail TBH.:mad::mad::mad:

    But yet your exact case - provides a basis for discussion on this issue.

    Your car is 320 euros this year - it will still be the exact same car next year - exact same driver - same history.

    There is NO reason whatsoever for an insurer to turn you down next year and not give you a decent quote.

    Problem is a strict "refusal" to cover due to a strict no 15 years or older cars allowed regardless of what the car is or whose covering - is not based on logic.

    Risk assessment based on the MAKE/MODEL of car and the DRIVERS HISTORY seems to be gone out the window.

    For example - what is the claims history like for (for example) Volvo V70s - im going to hazard a guess here and assume that the driver using a V70 of 2002 vintage WILL be a different profile then a 1999 3 door Corolla hatch.

    The 3 door Corolla hatch is often used by younger drivers (nothing wrong with this BUT it would impact on the risk assessment of the model).

    A V70 (usually) will be driven by more mature owners - which also impacts on the risk assessment.

    But under this - when the Volvo gets to 15 in 2 years time (2002 car) it will be risk assessed exactly the same as the Corolla - even if its still with the same owner as now.

    Of course if we did PROPER risk assessment - we should know information like the following

    Audi A4s (a typical car that's going to have examples of the same Gen model on BOTH sides of the 15 year old dividing line)

    Claims for Audi A4s

    1) how many claims for Audi A4s were iffy/dodgy - is it an acceptable level - the level of bad claims for Fiestas is IRRELEVENT - if the car cover is been sought for is an Audi A4.

    2) How does the claims record for Audi A4s change when Audi A4s go over 15 years old. If we take the original B5 model for example - how did the claims history change from 2010 when the original 95 models came to 15 - to now when the majority of B5s are over the 15 years of age - apart from some LATE 01 models (and late 2000 cars if we use the cars birthday).

    3) if there is a change in claims history of B5 Audi A4s - why is this - did the driver profile change. And what happens those who had their B5 A4 before 2010 and were an acceptable driver risk back then - and continue to be now???

    B5 = Mk 1 1995 to 2001 Audi A4


  • #507
    To Elland Back
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,923 ✭✭✭To Elland Back


    kuro2k wrote: »
    You boycott the insurers in question by refusing to purchase any other insurance product from them such as home, travel and health, simply really

    Won't happen if those particular insurers are cheaper/better cover than elsewhere. Very few people take a moral stance when it comes to insurance


  • #508
    Chris_Heilong
    Registered Users Posts: 4,973 ✭✭✭Chris_Heilong


    Write to the minister for transport and educate him, based on his comments that we have loads of other insurance companies who will insure "older" cars as this appears to be false.
    paschal.donohoe@oireachtas.ie

    Write the the The Financial Services Ombudsman: enquiries@financialombudsman.ie

    Write to your TD also, make it a political issue if that is what you want.
    I am sure there are some European offices we can contact also but I dont know where to start there.


  • #509
    Eric Cartman
    Registered Users Posts: 26,283 ✭✭✭✭Eric Cartman


    dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »
    But how do you boycott insurers?
    They have said quite clearly "kindly fcuk off if you're driving an older car".
    So now what? Drive without insurance? Not an option. They hold all the cards, they decide the deal and we get fcuked up the arse.
    Unless some new, miraculous insurance company comes to Ireland and decides to give out cheap insurance to older cars.
    Not going to happen. This suits the insurance companies, they just want accountants driving corollas, the government gets more money from higher premiums and more tax take, car dealers will sell more cars at a higher price, everyone wins, except people driving cars and trying to make a living, but they get fcuked all the time anyway and nobody cares for them.
    Can anyone name a party that has promised to take on and reform the fcuked up legal sector that likes to award tens of thousands of euros for scratches and owies? Maybe if this state wide theft, subsided by the legal sector was stamped out, we'd have a chance.
    Because the insurance companies know that judges knowingly award stupid money to people who are very obviously scamming the system, they have given up, they just throw money at the problem.

    no you don't, and you won't, reforming personal injury claims is like cutting the dole, its the same group of people your going to piss off.

    if you moved over to a system where just your medical bills were paid and you got an amount of cash as a proportion of your income , PI claims would fall through the floor.


  • #510
    marklazarcovic
    Registered Users Posts: 6,208 ✭✭✭marklazarcovic


    is there anywhere to see how much profit they have made in the last 5 years to see the declining revenue based on fradulent claims as claimed . ?


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  • #511
    Liam McPoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,846 ✭✭✭✭Liam McPoyle


    marklazarcovic wrote: »
    is there anywhere to see how much profit they have made in the last 5 years to see the declining revenue based on fradulent claims as claimed . ?

    I'm sure with some digging you would be able to find information alright, most of the big insurers are publically listed companies so as far as I know their financial results have to be issued.

    FBD for example posted 2 profit warnings in the last 12 months due to the increasing claims costs, their share price dropped from approx €19.50 in January 2014 to around €7.50 as at close of business on Friday last mainly on the back of this.


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