Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

bk · 13-08-2017 12:14pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

DART and Arrow services share the same route and people don't seem to find it unnecessarily complicated.

I can't see why LUAS and metro should be any different.

I'm talking of the operational side of it. Issues with signalling and scheduling which means the Dart only runs every 15 minutes or so now.

Slower Darts getting in the way of faster direct trains and issues around incompatible systems which mean trains can't be run closer to one another (higher frequencies) and other issues that limit it's capacity.

The complexity of heavy rail operations limits it's potential. The simplicity of light rail allows it to be run at much higher frequencies.

Complicating the Metro in this manner wouldn't be beneficial.

Also again I noticed that no one has said what journeys people would actually rather take by tram rather then Metro. There simply isn't any reason or benefit to do this.

LeinsterDub · 13-08-2017 12:16pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

The LUAS currently runs comfortably along the Green LUAS line, with 40-50 metre trams. It may well need to be upgraded to accomodate the metro, with 60-metre vehicles.

Could you explain, please, how this upgrade is going to prevent the LUAS, with its 50-metre vehicles, from running on the same line.

I never made such a claim.

MJohnston · 13-08-2017 12:55pm

bk wrote: »

Also again I noticed that no one has said what journeys people would actually rather take by tram rather then Metro. There simply isn't any reason or benefit to do this.

This is it exactly. It'd be mental, absolutely bizarre, to continue to run the Luas south of Charlemont once the Metro is running along that same section.

The Metro would stop at exactly the same stations, and serve the exact same passengers much faster than the current Green Line.
Nobody would use the Luas, everybody would use the Metro.
The Luas would delay and interfere with the fast running of the Metro.
Anyone who wanted to get from somewhere south of Charlemont to anywhere along the Broombridge line would just switch at one of the central stations.
There's a massive new service depot at Broombridge to serve all the remaining Green Line trams.

This is such a weird, nonsensical suggestion. No offence strassenwolf, but it makes me want to write off the rest of your posts without even reading them.

strassenwo!f · 13-08-2017 4:03pm

bk, LeinsterDub and MJohnston I would very much like to reply to your comments, but I have already stated that I believe it would be a significant error to extend metronorth along the Charlemont-Cherrywood corridor.

Further comment, by me at any rate, on the arrangements for LUAS and/or metro along this corridor would, under the current guidelines, appear to be outside the realm of discussion of metronorth.

LeinsterDub · 13-08-2017 5:18pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

bk, LeinsterDub and MJohnston I would very much like to reply to your comments, but I have already stated that I believe it would be a significant error to extend metronorth along the Charlemont-Cherrywood corridor.

Further comment, by me at any rate, on the arrangements for LUAS and/or metro along this corridor would, under the current guidelines, appear to be outside the realm of discussion of metronorth.

So you've come in made a vague rambling point and are now refusing to clarify

Sam Russell · 13-08-2017 5:46pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So you've come in made a vague rambling point and are now refusing to clarify

Mod: He can clarify it on another thread.

@ Strassenwolf - do not comment on mod instructions on thread. You have been warned before - next time you will be spending time elsewhere.

dublinman1990 · 13-08-2017 6:18pm

Tesco Ireland have now made remarks that they want a supermarket of theirs built in Santry linking it to MN. But it seems it is only on their terms they want a supermarket built. They tried to oppose a development of a warehouse to a supermarket from the Cosgrave Property Group which will give a 10 year supermarket lease to a chain in the area. However; Tesco say they can't build it as the route for MN has not yet been confirmed.

‘Premature’

One of the main issues raised by Tesco with An Bord Pleanala – but not with county council planners – was that the development could be considered “premature” since the route for the overdue Metro North has yet to be finalised.

In its appeal to An Bord Pleanala, Tesco noted that the potential route for the metro line is currently being reviewed.

It said that since the review hasn’t yet been completed, granting permission for the Santry supermarket is “inappropriate as the current zoning and route could change”.

“It is submitted that a decision on this permission should not be made until the review of the Metro North route has been finalised,” Tesco said.

The UK grocery giant also questioned the reason for allowing the change of use from a retail warehouse unit to a supermarket.

“Whilst the application is for a temporary permission, it is submitted that a 10-year permission is a long period for a temporary permission,” it said, “and the proposal could prevent the development of more appropriate retail locations during that period.”

http://www.thejournal.ie/santry-supermarket-appeal-3-3540821-Aug2017/

It looks like Tesco is preventing the building of a shopping centre in the area because they are anti-competition. The Cosgrave Property Group have not made a deal yet as to which supermarket chain will takeover the development for the 10 year lease.

I did try looking up Google for more on this story but thejournal.ie story is the only link I found off it.

bk · 13-08-2017 7:58pm

Seemingly Tesco have been putting in planning objections to almost every competitors plans for new supermarkets. Seemingly they have objected to multiple new Aldi and Lidl developments too.

Looks to me like an attempt to stem competition via the planning process. But looks like it largely isn't working so far.

Still cheap and easy for them to do.

https://amp.independent.ie/business/commercial-property/lidl-wins-planning-permission-battle-with-serial-objector-tesco-35411153.html

lateconnection · 13-08-2017 8:28pm

TII indicated in their submission to the NTA's 2016-2035 Transport Strategy their preference for service patterns along the Green Line once Metro South comes into operation:

Page 151 of this document: https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Consultation_Submissions_Report.pdf

TII said: "TII advise that service patterns consisting of Metro running from Bray to Swords and Luas Green
Line running from Ranelagh to Finglas to be given detailed consideration"

The NTA responded by saying: "Detailed operational service pattern arrangements are outside the ambit of a regional transport
strategy."

Whether the metro tracks will be linked to the Luas tracks is another issue, maybe they will, maybe they won't. But I would put my money on a fully grade-separated junction between Ranelagh and Charlemont for MN to tie in with the Green Line. I would say that the existing Luas platforms at Ranelagh will become metro platforms and then brand new terminus Luas platforms will be built either further up the embankment towards Charlemont, with a pedestrian link to the metro platforms, or alongside the existing Luas platforms.

The journey time from SSG to Sandyford is currently 21 minutes by Luas, but with Metro, it should go down to about 18 minutes, as slow on street running between SSG and Charlemont is eliminated, and also the next metro stop after Ranelagh will be SSG, so no stopping at Charlemont and Harcourt, saving time. If road crossings between SSG and Sandyford were eliminated, and the speed limit between Cowper and Beechwood increased, the journey time could go down to 16 or 17 minutes.

Also, extending MN out along the Green Line may result in no new MN depot built in Dardistown, as the Sandyford depot will no longer be a Luas depot, it will be a metro depot, as according to TII, Luas will only run as far as Ranelagh. So Broombridge depot will become the sole Green Line depot. Sandyford Depot can actually be expanded with even more sidings being built on the reservoir lands, this was considered in the EIS of Luas Cross City, but was ruled out in favour of a second Green Line depot in Broombridge for operational flexibility.

bk · 13-08-2017 8:51pm

So the plan is to not only extend the Metro south of Charlemont, but to eventually (I assume in a later phase) extend the new Metro "green line" to Bray. Sounds great.

cormac616 · 13-08-2017 10:01pm

Surely they should be looking at extending towards Terenure before Bray. It'd be a serious misstep if they didn't even allow for future development south-west. Does it mention anything about that in the Transport strategy?

MJohnston · 13-08-2017 10:21pm

For Terenure, I think we'll see the Green Line diverge from its current path at the point between Charlemont and Ranelagh that the Metro is supposed to start subsuming it, and essentially become the proposed Luas Line E.

I don't think this is likely to happen, but I do think it's very important.

D.L.R. · 13-08-2017 11:47pm

lateconnection wrote: »

Whether the metro tracks will be linked to the Luas tracks is another issue, maybe they will, maybe they won't. But I would put my money on a fully grade-separated junction between Ranelagh and Charlemont for MN to tie in with the Green Line. I would say that the existing Luas platforms at Ranelagh will become metro platforms and then brand new terminus Luas platforms will be built either further up the embankment towards Charlemont, with a pedestrian link to the metro platforms, or alongside the existing Luas platforms.

Hard to see how they achieve a Ranelagh interchange if the portal is at Dartmouth Place. Its a good 2-300 metres. CPOs to get any closer.

I'm not sure the Charlemont stub is viable long term. Personally I'd love to see the green line cut south of Harcourt and have an Amsterdam/Prague style street network feed into it, tying different parts of the centre together. Run one line down Adelaide Road along the canal to Silicon Docks. That whole area would explode. Run another branch into Ballsbridge. Run a line down Leeson St into a "Sneltram" elevated line along the N11 corridor. Run a line west through Portobello and beyond.

Unfortunately all these routes are critical car routes, but what an awesome city it would be if we had a web of tram corridors in the city instead. I think trams are better suited to that, they're not a good mode for long distance commuting. Bride's Glen is a bit far for a tram route imo.

veliktom · 16-08-2017 2:03pm

With the talk of converting the green line to metro south of Charlemont/Ranelagh I was thinking about all the road crossings and the impact of these to journey times. I know it was mentioned before but I thought I'd look at each one and give some comments on the impact of closing each. I am a daily user of the line.

From north to south:

Beechwood - Dunville Avenue
One lane crossing, right next to the stop. Luas generally has priority and it is very rare to be held up here, especially as the luas is stopping anyway. Crossing can be busy at peak times as an alternative to the Triangle at Ranelagh so may be pushback to keep this open.

Miltown - Alexandra College
Access road to the school, adjacent to the stop, presumably can be closed to vehicles without much fuss. In any case it is not busy and does not impede the luas.

Stillorgan stop - St Raphaela's Road
Busy crossing, luas does get held up here. Hard to see how this can be closed as it's a busy route for Stillorgan to Sandyford journeys. Would a bridge be feasible here?

Sandyford - Burton Hall Road
Busy intersection, luas generally has priority but occasionally gets held up. Again hard to see how this would be dealt with.

Glencairn - access to Glencairn house
Not an issue, not signal controlled. Needs to stay as no alternative access.

Glencairn - Glencairn Road
Luas has priority, does not get held up here often. Will need to stay open.

The Gallops - Glencairn Crescent
Potential to close this crossing, alternative road access from Glencairn Road and potentially Drinaghmore Close.

Leopardstown Valley - Leopardstown Valley access road
Similar to above, potential to close this one.

Leopardstown Valley - Drinaghmore Close
Keep open, major access point for shops/Ballyogan estate. Could make Glenbourne/Gallops estates accessible from this road.

Ballyogan Road - road at Sliabh Rua school
Could be closed and all traffic routed via Drinaghmore Close.

Ballyogan Wood - estate access road
No real alternative here, remain open.

Laughanstown - Laughanstown road
Nothing here anyway, not sure what the development plan is but if it is going to be built up then they can probably put a bridge in at some stage. Will presumably need to stay as is for now.

And that's them all as far as I can see.

strassenwo!f · 18-08-2017 1:37am

cormac616 wrote: »

Surely they should be looking at extending towards Terenure before Bray. It'd be a serious misstep if they didn't even allow for future development south-west.

Going out from the city, I've never been entirely convinced that the metronorth should have just one line serving DCU. Ballymun, the Airport and Swords. It is common in Continental Europe to have a cross-city tunnel with two (or more) branches at one or other end.

The purpose being to ensure consummate utilisation of the city centre tunnel and extensive coverage outside the city centre.

Grace Park and Coolock, for example, are areas which are not going to be well-served by the metro line recently discussed, but which might be if there were to be a split outside of the tunnelled area in the city.

Be that as it may, there is certainly no question that there is nowhere in the south-western area of Dublin City which rivals the Airport and Swords for volume, so it would certainly make sense to split such a line into two on the southside, when the metronorth is inevitably extended.

I agree very much that Terenure is one such location which should be served, soon, after the initial phase of metronorth is built, perhaps on a route via Rathmines and Rathgar, and heading on to Templeogue and maybe Knocklyon.

For me the key initial southside location where metronorth should branch towards is Walkinstown Cross. As Dublin's Place D'etoile, it has great coverage from buses from all areas, and huge potential to serve those areas while other parts of the metro - like a route via Terenure - are being built.

cormac616 wrote: »

Does it mention anything about that in the Transport strategy?

The Transport Strategy?

Perhaps someone on the board could tell us more about this...

strassenwo!f · 18-08-2017 10:07am

I should also have added, in my previous post, and in case anybody needs reminding, that a decision to go with shorter metro vehicles (60 or so metres versus the original 90) will render it much more difficult for the metronorth tunnel through the city to eventually split - as often happens in other cities - and serve other northside areas.

As far as I understand it, the original cost:benefit analysis showed that there was a comfortably positive outcome for a project involving 90-metre vehicles along the main metronorth route (between the city and Swords) every couple of minutes or so.

Shortening those vehicles to 60 metres not only stretches the main metronorth route but also makes any possible options to develop the city centre tunnel to other northside areas, to keep the throughput very high in the centre, much more difficult.

bk · 18-08-2017 11:18am

I'm hoping that the stations will still be built to 90m capability and that the 60m trains can be upgraded to 90m later, similar to how the Luas trams have been extended.

BonnieSituation · 18-08-2017 11:40am

I'm hoping that the endless crayons on napkins crap stops at some point too.

MJohnston · 18-08-2017 11:52am

bk wrote: »

I'm hoping that the stations will still be built to 90m capability and that the 60m trains can be upgraded to 90m later, similar to how the Luas trams have been extended.

Even if they just bore/excavate enough space for the stations to be 90m eventually, and only build platforms to 60m, that'd be fine.

That said, we've no idea if they'll keep the shortened lengths for the New New Metro plan or not.

strassenwo!f · 18-08-2017 11:53am

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I'm hoping that the endless crayons on napkins crap stops at some point too.

You're apparently in there, BonnieSituation. Is that what's happening?

Are they still at the crayons-on-napkins stage?

BonnieSituation · 18-08-2017 11:58am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

You're apparently in there, BonnieSituation. Is that what's happening?

Are they still at the crayons-on-napkins stage?

I am apparently in here alright.

Do you think what I posted was made up? I know you've been pretty cynical when this reality was posted a couple of weeks back.

The route selection criteria are still being evaluated. That's the stage we're at. Announcement likely in October. Want anymore detail from reality or would you like some pretty pictures of a fantasy X-rail system?

strassenwo!f · 18-08-2017 12:28pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

I am apparently in here alright.

Do you think what I posted was made up? I know you've been pretty cynical when this reality was posted a couple of weeks back.

The route selection criteria are still being evaluated. That's the stage we're at. Announcement likely in October. Want anymore detail from reality or would you like some pretty pictures of a fantasy X-rail system?

Sorry if I offended you, and I will take your word that you are in there.

I am curious about what you call the 'fantasy' X-rail system.

It is not a 'fantasy' to believe that the metronorth will eventually be extended southward, and I hope it's not a 'fantasy' to imagine that it might be extended to areas of the south city which don't currently have (reasonably) rapid rail connecting them to the centre. The south-west of the city would be one such area.

What I suggested earlier was that the metronorth should head through the city and then southwest, and that the Cherrywood line should head through the city and then northwest, the two lines meeting at St. Stephen's Green.

Simple enough, I'd have thought, to enable all metro passengers to have a one-change system to anywhere on the developing metro network. I don't think one needs to fantasize to see how that could be a good arrangement, for starters.

BonnieSituation · 18-08-2017 12:48pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Sorry if I offended you, and I will take your word that you are in there.

I am curious about what you call the 'fantasy' X-rail system.

It is not a 'fantasy' to believe that the metronorth will eventually be extended southward, and I hope it's not a 'fantasy' to imagine that it might be extended to areas of the south city which don't currently have (reasonably) rapid rail connecting them to the centre. The south-west of the city would be one such area.

What I suggested earlier was that the metronorth should head through the city and then southwest, and that the Cherrywood line should head through the city and then northwest, the two lines meeting at St. Stephen's Green.

Simple enough, I'd have thought, to enable all metro passengers to have a one-change system to anywhere on the developing metro network. I don't think one needs to fantasize to see how that could be a good arrangement, for starters.

Fantasy in that you are talking in hypotheticals.

strassenwo!f · 18-08-2017 1:15pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Fantasy in that you are talking in hypotheticals.

Yes, of course I am, BonnieSituation. This is a messageboard.

Your team are working on the real stuff, the metronorth link between the city and Swords.

I'm writing about what I hope might happen after your team has completed its metronorth task, which I'm sure will be very fine, and the metronorth is built. Essentially, how your team's work on metronorth could be used to produce better public transport on the Southside of Dublin, over the years, and whether there might be scope to use that metronorth city centre tunnel to provide better public transport to other areas of the northside.

Sam Russell · 18-08-2017 2:03pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Yes, of course I am, BonnieSituation. This is a messageboard.

Your team are working on the real stuff, the metronorth link between the city and Swords.

I'm writing about what I hope might happen after your team has completed its metronorth task, which I'm sure will be very fine, and the metronorth is built. Essentially, how your team's work on metronorth could be used to produce better public transport on the Southside of Dublin, over the years, and whether there might be scope to use that metronorth city centre tunnel to provide better public transport to other areas of the northside.

Mod: could you restrict your design ideas to the Metro North project. There are other threads for discussing expansion of the Dublin public transport system.

bk · 18-08-2017 3:15pm

Bonnie, any indication on which route is coming out as preferred option?

And any indication on how and where the Metro would be tied into the Green line?

Thanks

Tayschren · 18-08-2017 3:19pm

Great thread and some fantastic posts but the reality is that Metronorth will be built to political standards not best practice, cant wait to see how they **** it up

strassenwo!f · 18-08-2017 4:26pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Mod: could you restrict your design ideas to the Metro North project. There are other threads for discussing expansion of the Dublin public transport system.

Sam, can we get things clarified here? We all know it is obvious that the metronorth will eventually be extended south, but we don't know how.

Why is it that the following post, posted after yours, by your moderator colleague bk, is allowed to stand without reprimand:

bk wrote: »

Bonnie, any indication on which route is coming out as preferred option?

And any indication on how and where the Metro would be tied into the Green line?

Thanks

I am confident that many people would wish the metronorth project to tie in directly with the Sandyford/Cherrywood Luas route, and the poster bk's use of the words 'how' and 'where', rather than 'if' and 'how', show how he/she feels, and is probably designed to give the impression that this is a fait accompli, but we haven't actually seen anything (officially) to that effect yet.

As such, this connection remains a dream, or - as you say - a design idea, for the likes of the poster bk.

Since there has been no reprimand, could you clarify if you see it this way too?

annfield1978 · 18-08-2017 5:39pm

Keep an eye out on E tenders as tender for New Metro North to be issued shortly

marno21 · 18-08-2017 6:39pm

annfield1978 wrote: »

Keep an eye out on E tenders as tender for New Metro North to be issued shortly

What sort of tender may I ask ?

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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