Drinking during pregnancy!

DSN · 15-10-2008 1:56pm

In my last preg i didnt drink until the 12 weeks then i would have the odd white wine spritzer like one every 2 weeks if we were out with a crowd why? because I really enjoyed it and was happy just to have the one and dont believe it will do any harm. this time if i drink anything it will be also after 1st trimester but we hardly go out much anyway now so I might not want to. My dh certainly continued to enjoy his few pints every week so he didnt dare say anything about me having the odd one. My doc said was more important to continue to eat healthy & keep fit with walking/swimming etc which I did. She saw worse complications in pregnancy from unfit mothers to be who were well overweight from overindulging in junk food & not eating or excercising proparely (high blood pressure problems etc).

She Devil · 15-10-2008 4:05pm

There is a huge stigma to women drinking during pregnancy! Remember Gywenth Paltrow going public? Wow that caused outrage!
This thread has asked for opinions so i will give my opinion, with no reflection on those who disagree, I do not agree with drinking during pregnancy, because for the very fact there is no evidence to prove it is definately fine to drink, alcohol gets me drunk i do stupid things when i'm drunk, can you imagine the effects it may have on the little one i am carrying!
But maybe i am anal in my views, because i found coffee to have bad effects on my pregnancies, when i get pregnant again i will not touch caffeine. I will be a nightmare to people with open minds :rolleyes:

lostinnappies · 08-11-2008 6:03pm

Sorry for dragging this thread up again but I wanted to put my two cents in. I have also been told by doctors that having one light drink once a month wouldnt do any harm.

Having said that, before I was pregnant I used to drink like a fish and smoked for about 10 years. As soon as I heard I was preggers that all stopped straight away. I was temped but never drank a drop nor even hung around areas where other people were smoking because my child was dependent on the choices I was making. I think that any mother should be willing to sacrifice nine months of "good behaviour" for the sake of their darling child. I know I did and missed my 30th birthday and all

It isnt a life sentence and once baby popped out I went out had a cigg and a glass of champers lol.

ntlbell · 09-11-2008 2:10pm

pixiestix wrote: »

nonsense? whatever, i can have my opinions, and for a man to tell me what i do in my pregnancy is nonsense is just pathetic, i would love to see a man go thru what women go thru in pregnancy and childbirth and all the aftercare and breastfeeding, hell, men cant even cope with "man flu" so you can stick your "nonsense" comment right up your wazzoo, and i will sip my ONE glass of wine tonight, happy in the knowledge that the 3 other glasses of wine i had when i was pregnant didn't harm my daughter in any way, shape or form.

Each pregnant woman knows what is and is not good for her, each pregnant woman is totally different, don't condemn someone for something you will never know.

Of course you can have your opinion and I'm entitled to mine.
I said on numerous posts here I would never ever under any circumstances tell my partner what to do or not what to do during her pregnancy this is not the issue eithier so I dont know why you're bring it up.

men can't handle a flu what on earth has that got to do with force feeding an unborn baby alcohol?

Your gloating that you forced alcohol on your unborn child and you don't mind because as far as you know it didn't do any harm? really?

wow, just wow....

Condeming women is not the issue eithier you seem to have problems following this thread I'm stating my thoughts on force feeding an unborn child alcohol

you wouldn't do it to a week old baby you wouldn't do it to a 12yr old why on earth would you do it to a vunerable unborn??

bizzare...

Grawns · 09-11-2008 4:10pm

Enough already!

Everyone agrees about one thing, excess alcohol is wrong. Lets agree to disagree in the case of a woman who has the odd glass of wine over a 9 mth period.

I can say this cause I've had none ( am 26 weeks now) but I don't condemn anyone who does. Pixiestix had 4 glasses of wine in a 9 1/2 month period. SO WHAT!

Go find a glass house and live in it.

lostinnappies · 10-11-2008 4:41pm

Grawns wrote: »

Enough already!

Everyone agrees about one thing, excess alcohol is wrong. Lets agree to disagree in the case of a woman who has the odd glass of wine over a 9 mth period.

I can say this cause I've had none ( am 26 weeks now) but I don't condemn anyone who does. Pixiestix had 4 glasses of wine in a 9 1/2 month period. SO WHAT!

Go find a glass house and live in it.

Hormonal much?:P I jest

Grawns · 10-11-2008 8:39pm

lostinnappies wrote: »

Hormonal much?:P I jest

I was feeling a little crazed

ebmma · 11-11-2008 11:52pm

@ people who say "why drink just one, there's no effect anyway"

Are you serious? the less you drink, the less alcohol you need to feel "the effect". I do not mean getting locked, I mean the warm relaxed feeling you get after a long day of work relaxing with a pint/glass of wine.

I was pretty surprised, do people just drink to get drunk? :eek:

On the topic: I personally would drink as little as possible during pregnancy.

ntlbell · 12-11-2008 12:08am

ebmma wrote: »

@ people who say "why drink just one, there's no effect anyway"

Are you serious? the less you drink, the less alcohol you need to feel "the effect". I do not mean getting locked, I mean the warm relaxed feeling you get after a long day of work relaxing with a pint/glass of wine.

I was pretty surprised, do people just drink to get drunk? :eek:

On the topic: I personally would drink as little as possible during pregnancy.

that you only have to go without for 9 months of your life per child.

what's more important a small fuzzy feeling from your glass of wine after work

or a nice fuzzy feeling your not going to cause any difficulties to your unborn child by not drinking?

i can't belive this is even up for disussion..

ebmma · 12-11-2008 12:17am

ntlbell wrote: »

that you only have to go without for 9 months of your life per child.

what's more important a small fuzzy feeling from your glass of wine after work

or a nice fuzzy feeling your not going to cause any difficulties to your unborn child by not drinking?

i can't belive this is even up for disussion..

I'm not arguing with you.
It is just the "you can't feel one drink anyway, so why drink" argument sounds to me like that if there was an effect it would somehow be more justified.
I don't think it is relevant weather one can or cannot feel the effect of drinking.

As I said, I personally would not drink.

ntlbell · 12-11-2008 12:40am

ebmma wrote: »

I'm not arguing with you.
It is just the "you can't feel one drink anyway, so why drink" argument sounds to me like that if there was an effect it would somehow be more justified.
I don't think it is relevant weather one can or cannot feel the effect of drinking.

As I said, I personally would not drink.

well if it's not for the affect and only for taste

then surley one would be happy with a non alcoholic beverage that tastes the same no?

iguana · 17-11-2008 2:42am

lostinnappies wrote: »

I think that any mother should be willing to sacrifice nine months of "good behaviour" for the sake of their darling child.

ntlbell wrote: »

that you only have to go without for 9 months of your life per child.

It isn't just 9 months though is it? The pregnancy is 9 months, breastfeeding is another 3 at least. Very likely longer, I plan to be breastfeeding for 9 months to a year, so that's 18/21 months. The first time I was ttc I would not drink during the 2/3 week period between ovulation and confirmation/period.

Since my miscarriage I've drank once and it had a foul effect on me, so I haven't drank since then. Which means that if I happen to be pregnant this month (unlikely as I've had a negative test this morning) I won't have alcohol for close to 2 years.

And it isn't just alcohol. I currently have the flu. I feel totally manky, I can't sleep as my nose is clogged, I'm achey, my throat hurts and I have a cough, yet on the off chance that I'm pregnant I can't have anything other than paracetamol. I can't take a long hot bath to ease my muscles as long hot baths increase risk of miscarriage. I can't use muscle rub or decongestant rub as clove oil, eucalyptus oil and other ingredients in these things increase chance of miscarriage. And I have the joy of knowing that for the next two years, minimum (because it could take me months/years to conceive again and go to term) many of these things we normally take for granted are off limits to me.

And that's before we get to food. Limited fish, no nuts, limited cheese, limited/no caffeine, no rare/cured meat, limited herbs and spices. And that doesn't even begin to include what can and can't be kept down due to nausea.

All in all there is no way we are going to be able to avoid everything we shouldn't eat/do in pregnancy. The idea is that we cut down and avoid excessive consumption. Bear in mind that most of the things we now try to avoid weren't even known to be a problem until recently. How many of our mothers drank gallons of tea and coffee during our time in vitro? I know my mum snacked on peanuts most nights of all her pregnancies. How many of our grandmothers were recommended Guinness as a pregnancy tonic by doctors? French women are still recommended red wine and aren't prohibited soft cheeses. I even know a child who's mother was a heroin addict all through it's gestation and is a 100% healthy kid now.

It's a guide, avoid vetoed food and drink as much as possible, but the odd glass of wine will not do any lasting harm. It is very much proven by the fact that we are each and everyone of us descended from people who's mothers drank during pregnancy.

ntlbell · 17-11-2008 3:58am

iguana wrote: »

It isn't just 9 months though is it? The pregnancy is 9 months, breastfeeding is another 3 at least. Very likely longer, I plan to be breastfeeding for 9 months to a year, so that's 18/21 months. The first time I was ttc I would not drink during the 2/3 week period between ovulation and confirmation/period.

All in all there is no way we are going to be able to avoid everything we shouldn't eat/do in pregnancy. The idea is that we cut down and avoid excessive consumption. Bear in mind that most of the things we now try to avoid weren't even known to be a problem until recently. How many of our mothers drank gallons of tea and coffee during our time in vitro? I know my mum snacked on peanuts most nights of all her pregnancies. How many of our grandmothers were recommended Guinness as a pregnancy tonic by doctors? French women are still recommended red wine and aren't prohibited soft cheeses. I even know a child who's mother was a heroin addict all through it's gestation and is a 100% healthy kid now.

It's a guide, avoid vetoed food and drink as much as possible, but the odd glass of wine will not do any lasting harm. It is very much proven by the fact that we are each and everyone of us descended from people who's mothers drank during pregnancy.

right, we're into "sure heroin addicts have kids and they're grand"

you obviously never witness the pain some kids have to go through to be fed physeptone for there first few weeks/months of their lives

christ all bleedin mighty

i've heard it all now

and

i think i've heard enough...

Grawns · 17-11-2008 12:08pm

ntlbell wrote: »

right, we're into "sure heroin addicts have kids and they're grand"

you obviously never witness the pain some kids have to go through to be fed physeptone for there first few weeks/months of their lives

christ all bleedin mighty

i've heard it all now

and

i think i've heard enough...

Please let it be so...

Running Bing · 17-11-2008 12:21pm

I think you have it weigh it up:

A tiny minuscule chance you might damage the baby V the enjoyment you get from having one shandy or a spritzer every two weeks.

Personally I would go without that tiny enjoyment to minimise the chances of doing damage. What is it about knowing that half your drink is an alcoholic beverage that makes such a difference to people? Your not going to feel any different on that amount and if its the taste there are non alcoholic alternatives. Just seems a completely unnecessary risk to me (albeit a tiny one).

iguana · 17-11-2008 12:24pm

ntlbell wrote: »

right, we're into "sure heroin addicts have kids and they're grand"

I'm in no way condoning heroin use during pregnancy, but the fact is that babies are born to heroin addicts and once they pull through the initial period after birth. Which, yes, is dangerous and painful. The child is then very likely to go through life with no negative side-effects. I used to work for a children's charity and came into contact with kids like this on occasion. And I've read numerous studies on it.

Quackles · 17-11-2008 12:26pm

ntlbell wrote: »

right, we're into "sure heroin addicts have kids and they're grand"

you obviously never witness the pain some kids have to go through to be fed physeptone for there first few weeks/months of their lives

christ all bleedin mighty

i've heard it all now

and

i think i've heard enough...

Get off your high horse, I hardly think she was condoning heroin use in pregnancy, the point was there are numerous things out there that you can or can't have which our mothers (and indeed mothers today) wouldn't have been aware of. The point is MOST THINGS (and I'm not including heroin in that, before you jump down my throat too, just like I don't think the other lady was) will do no harm in moderation. EG, my doctor never told me to avoid unpasteurised cheese, peanuts, deli meats, whipped ice cream etc. in pregnancy - if I hadn't done my own research on the internet, I'd be blissfully unaware, as I'd say quite a few pregnant ladies are. And chances are, my baby would be just fine regardless.

I don't drink, I do try to avoid the 'no-no' foods (and I'm sure I've slipped up upon occasion there), I can't eat processed sugary foods due to the gestational diabetes, I can't eat foods that are too fatty for the same reason. I'm doing the best I can, stumbling the odd time and eating something I didn't know was going to affect me badly. I don't feel in any way superior to the ladies who have a single glass of wine every now and then in pregnancy, and I will not be made to feel like I'm not doing the best I can for my child by someone who never has and never will have to go through what I'm going through.

Rant over.

ntlbell · 17-11-2008 12:54pm

iguana wrote: »

I'm in no way condoning heroin use during pregnancy, but the fact is that babies are born to heroin addicts and once they pull through the initial period after birth. Which, yes, is dangerous and painful. The child is then very likely to go through life with no negative side-effects. I used to work for a children's charity and came into contact with kids like this on occasion. And I've read numerous studies on it.

I never said you were condoning it but bringing it to table to add to your argument is absloute nonsense.

When the child gets through detoxing off heroin (i can't belive i'm still discussing this) in Ireland do you know how many of the cases are followed up on? how many are followed through their education etc to see if any problems occured? I'll tell you how many 0 not one.

Alot of the problems that the studies shows are things that would be not very obvious. learning difficulties problems staying focused/concentrating. when a child who falls behind in school and ends up dropping out do you think the parents ever think "oh that's cause i was sipping on spritzers" or "that was because i was banging up"

The majority of the issues related to drink are not missing arms are obvious defects they're mental and won't be obvious, this doesn't mean evertythings ok

your argument is off the wall...

iguana · 17-11-2008 1:19pm

ntlbell wrote: »

in Ireland do you know how many of the cases are followed up on? how many are followed through their education etc to see if any problems occured? I'll tell you how many 0 not one.

Wrong. My old organisation does, in Ireland and the UK. Besides that comprehensive studies are carried out in other countries, it is not necessary for each and every government to carry out a study. Studies on the MMR vaccine weren't carried out by each and every country, yet they all officially state it is safe.

I also have a child I know well who was a heroin baby and is an extremely bright, fast learner with no behavioral problems. Granted we'll never know how bright the child would have been without being exposed to heroin. But the child is far, far advanced in abilities and comprehension above it's age group. While still too young for comprehensive testing my guess is that the child has an IQ of 130-140+.

Does that make the parents choice to have a baby in those circumstances ok? Of course it doesn't, a lot of people no longer speak to the parents, who the child no longer lives with. I lost a baby two months ago, I can't describe the level of anger I feel at anyone who doesn't do the best for their baby. But an occasional drink will not cause a problem during pregnancy. Will I drink when I get pregnant again? Probably not, but if I do I also know that it won't cause any problems.

ntlbell · 17-11-2008 1:29pm

iguana wrote: »

Wrong. My old organisation does, in Ireland and the UK. Besides that comprehensive studies are carried out in other countries, it is not necessary for each and every government to carry out a study. Studies on the MMR vaccine weren't carried out by each and every country, yet they all officially state it is safe.

I also have a child I know well who was a heroin baby and is an extremely bright, fast learner with no behavioral problems. Granted we'll never know how bright the child would have been without being exposed to heroin. But the child is far, far advanced in abilities and comprehension above it's age group. While still too young for comprehensive testing my guess is that the child has an IQ of 130-140+.

Does that make the parents choice to have a baby in those circumstances ok? Of course it doesn't, a lot of people no longer speak to the parents, who the child no longer lives with. I lost a baby two months ago, I can't describe the level of anger I feel at anyone who doesn't do the best for their baby. But an occasional drink will not cause a problem during pregnancy. Will I drink when I get pregnant again? Probably not, but if I do I also know that it won't cause any problems.

have you any links to the organisations? or links to any studies they carried out on baby's born to heroin addicts in ireland? any facts at all? i'd love to see them and i'd love to be wrong on this as it's pretty close to home.

links to any tests done or the results or papers carried out in these would be great

I know a few people who had kids while taken heroin and do have problems you know some that don't does it mean it doesn't cause problems? would those problems be there anyway? again it's why take the chance

if there is the smallest tinest possiblity in the world that it might cause a problem it's something that is very easy to avoid so why bother?

trying to avoid every single bit of food that may or may not cause a problem would be probably very difficult but if it's something easy that you know might cause a problem how tiny the chance is why bother? is drink that important in your life? (not you personally, anyone) if it is then maybe you (not you personally) should hold of and wait till it's not.

your now guessing people's IQ levels to make a point?

really?

this is getting seriously rediclous now

iguana · 17-11-2008 2:17pm

ntlbell wrote:

have you any links to the organisations? or links to any studies they carried out on baby's born to heroin addicts in ireland? any facts at all? i'd love to see them and i'd love to be wrong on this as it's pretty close to home.

links to any tests done or the results or papers carried out in these would be great

I'd suggest you investigate the findings of Suzanne R. Sage, coordinator of the Teratogen Information Service at University of South Florida.

Most of the adverse effects of heroin on babies, beyond initial withdrawal, tends to be a result of factors that go hand in hand with heroin use. Poor nutrition, exposure to diseases in dirty needles. Followed by poor upbringing, neglect and lack of necessary stimuli for the baby in it's early years. A baby which is swiftly placed in good care following withdrawal usually grows up devoid of problems. On a scientific level pre-natal heroin exposure appears to have none to minimal effects.

ntlbell wrote: »

your now guessing people's IQ levels to make a point?

I wasn't guessing, I did some basic IQ tests but they aren't absolutely comprehensive at the age I did them at. I did the tests because of the child's background and they indicated top scores, getting more exact scores would have taken an expert. Even the standard adult IQ test only tests to a max of 155 and specialist tests are needed to determine a score above that.

ntlbell · 17-11-2008 2:28pm

iguana wrote: »

I'd suggest you investigate the findings of Suzanne R. Sage, coordinator of the Teratogen Information Service at University of South Florida.

Most of the adverse effects of heroin on babies, beyond initial withdrawal, tends to be a result of factors that go hand in hand with heroin use. Poor nutrition, exposure to diseases in dirty needles. Followed by poor upbringing, neglect and lack of necessary stimuli for the baby in it's early years. A baby which is swiftly placed in good care following withdrawal usually grows up devoid of problems. On a scientific level pre-natal heroin exposure appears to have none to minimal effects.

florida? sorry i was under the impression your organisation did it in ireland and the uk? what did they find? release any papers based on the findings in ireland? you said they followed up with testing on kids born out of heriun addiction in ireland?

iguana · 17-11-2008 2:51pm

ntlbell wrote: »

florida? sorry i was under the impression your organisation did it in ireland and the uk? what did they find? release any papers based on the findings in ireland? you said they followed up with testing on kids born out of heriun addiction in ireland?

They monitor them, they are a children's charity, not scientists. As I've also explained monitoring heroin babies as they grow up is extremely difficult due to the other factors of those children's lives. And that scientific studies done in one country are used by others, eg MMR, as biology does not recognise national borders.

But you obviously have a tendency to pick and choose certain sentences to suit your own agenda. The most comprehensive study in the world, to date, on this subject was done in Florida. If you have a genuine interest in the subject I suggest you look into it.

Tbh, you are coming across as someone who has made up his mind on the subject and is not interested in anything which counters that. It's an attitude prevalent in the closed-minded and in teenagers. For your sake I hope you are the latter and that you grow out of it.

ntlbell · 17-11-2008 3:06pm

iguana wrote: »

They monitor them, they are a children's charity, not scientists. As I've also explained monitoring heroin babies as they grow up is extremely difficult due to the other factors of those children's lives. And that scientific studies done in one country are used by others, eg MMR, as biology does not recognise national borders.

But you obviously have a tendency to pick and choose certain sentences to suit your own agenda. The most comprehensive study in the world, to date, on this subject was done in Florida. If you have a genuine interest in the subject I suggest you look into it.

Tbh, you are coming across as someone who has made up his mind on the subject and is not interested in anything which counters that. It's an attitude prevalent in the closed-minded and in teenagers. For your sake I hope you are the latter and that you grow out of it.

oh a childrens charity sorry, what I was referring to was in ireland there are no studies done, no one follows up with the kids to watch for abnormalities etc no real tests are done it's great that some volunteers do but you haven't said what they do? give kids born with heroin addictions IQ tests? super..

you said there was, I ask you to show me them and then you change it to "oh no they're not scientists" then claim i'm chaninging things to suit myself? right.

I'm a very open minded person it's just I have a small issue with people banging up heroin while pregnant which seems to make me a closed minded teenager. call me a tad touched in the head...

ntlbell · 17-11-2008 3:14pm

During pregnancy the use of heroin can lead to poor fetal growth, premature delivery, and still birth. Premature rupture of the membranes also occurs, meaning that the bags of waters that hold the fetus break too soon causing premature birth. Diseases and infections related to the mother's drug addiction, like venereal disease such as syphilis and hepatitis can be transmitted to the fetus. Using heroin also raises the baby's risk of contracting the HIV virus if the mother used heroin intravenously. There is a minimum 4-5% chance that the baby will have a major birth defect, although it may not be evident right away.

sounds like a real party

iguana · 17-11-2008 3:20pm

ntlbell wrote: »

you said there was, I ask you to show me them and then you change it to "oh no they're not scientists" then claim i'm chaninging things to suit myself? right.

I said form my second post on this thread that I had worked for a children's charity. You never asked for scientific studies, you stated nobody monitors these children through their school years.

ntlbell wrote:

in Ireland do you know how many of the cases are followed up on? how many are followed through their education etc to see if any problems occured? I'll tell you how many 0 not one.

I told you that the group I worked for do. I never once claimed that they carried out extensive scientific studies, why would a children's charity to that? They look after the children in their care.

You then stated that for personal reasons you would like to know more about the impact of prenatal heroin exposure, so I pointed you in the direction of the most comprehensive study done on the subject. But obviously you don't have much interest in the subject as you would have taken the time to look into that study instead of continuing to find fault with me. Which just confirms my feeling that you are closed-minded and not even slightly interested in learning anything which challenges your preconceptions.

ntlbell · 17-11-2008 3:20pm

Effects of maternal heroin addiction may persist in the offspring for an extended period of time, resulting in poor growth and development (4-6). Behavioral abnormalities, including impaired organization and perception skills, impaired motor inhibition and mental retardation, have been described (1), (3), (7). Behavioral scores are influenced by withdrawal symptoms; as the symptom decrease, developmental gains increase (6). Follow-up studies of these children are few and are limited by multiple drug use and the difficulty of maintaining contact with these families.

ntlbell · 17-11-2008 3:22pm

iguana wrote: »

You then stated that for personal reasons you would like to know more about the impact of prenatal heroin exposure, so I pointed you in the direction of the most comprehensive study done on the subject. But obviously you don't have much interest in the subject as you would have taken the time to look into that study instead of continuing to find fault with me. Which just confirms my feeling that you are closed-minded and not even slightly interested in learning anything which challenges your preconceptions.

i have read it see the quotes?

iguana · 17-11-2008 3:23pm

ntlbell wrote: »

During pregnancy the use of heroin can lead to poor fetal growth, premature delivery, and still birth. Premature rupture of the membranes also occurs, meaning that the bags of waters that hold the fetus break too soon causing premature birth. Diseases and infections related to the mother's drug addiction, like venereal disease such as syphilis and hepatitis can be transmitted to the fetus. Using heroin also raises the baby's risk of contracting the HIV virus if the mother used heroin intravenously. There is a minimum 4-5% chance that the baby will have a major birth defect, although it may not be evident right away.

Which is to due to the socio-economic factors relating to the majority of heroin users, as I already stated several posts ago. Poor nutrition, healthcare and ill-health caused by dirty needles not the heroin itself.

Stop reading selectively.

ntlbell · 17-11-2008 3:24pm

iguana wrote: »

Which is to due to the socio-economic factors relating to the majority of heroin users, as I already stated several posts ago. Poor nutrition, healthcare and ill-health caused by dirty needles not the heroin itself.

Stop reading selectively.

dirty needles don't cause still birth's...

you try the non selective reading...

Drinking during pregnancy!

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