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The Metal Detecting Debate. Keep all your MD questions and querys here!

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,587 ✭✭✭Bob Z


    Grimes wrote: »
    Its because people call them treasures that we have stricter laws.


    ??????


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    The problem with amateur metal-detecting is that stratigraphy is one of the most important parts of archaeology and excavation. Archaeologists are trained to excavate a site so that relationships are understood. They are not necessarily interested in 'treasure' and 'coins' but what the artefacts can tell us about a site. For example; whether the coinds were a hoard stashed below a floor surface in times of trouble etc. This means that when metal detectorists dig into the ground to retrieve coins etc. the relationships are lost and the artefacts are meaningless beyond their face value. There are metal detectorists in England who immediatly contact an archaeologist who will excavate the site. This is not always the case as most non-archaeogists are interested in the face value of 'treasure' and not what it can tell us about our past.


  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭Jakub25


    RollYerOwn wrote: »
    The problem with amateur metal-detecting is that stratigraphy is one of the most important parts of archaeology and excavation.

    But usually 50cm of top soil is throw away by excavator.
    So it doesnt destroy contex, stratigraphy, artefacts.
    How contex of artefacts from top of soil
    is recorded after that?


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwIqHYZxnX0



    On the field what is every year ploughed 50cm deep,
    is it possibe to make correct contex?






  • Registered Users Posts: 272 ✭✭DeepSleeper


    Jakub25 wrote: »
    But usually 50cm of top soil is throw away by excavator.

    What is your evidence for this? A video made by the driver of a mechanical excavator? I never ignore or throw away the uppermost 50cm on any excavation and in many cases, if I had, I would have lost most of the site!!

    The most important practical element of our laws which protect our archaeological heritage from metal detecting is, as previously said, the idea that the context in which the artefact lies must be preserved and any detectorist who digs an artefact out from the stratigraphy in which it lies is separating the find from the wealth of information which comes with it - "throwing the baby out with the bathwater" really, since the find is of little interest if we can't discuss the context from which it comes.

    From a broader perspective, the laws which protect our archaeological heritage are there to prevent individuals from claiming pieces of Ireland's cultural heritage as their own simply because they found it. This was a very significant milestone in the treatment of artefacts because it was drafted with the 'common good' in mind - It sought to place the right of Irish society as a whole to common ownership of its cultural and archaeological heritage as superior to the right of any individual claim of ownership to the exclusion of all others. This is why any artefacts of archaeological importance are now automatically the property of the State from the moment they are found, regardless of who finds them.

    This measure has made a huge difference, because the rate at which Irish archaeological material is being excavated illegally (and in many cases exported illegally to other countries) has declined significantly since 'bad old days' of the 70s and 80s. Officials from the National Museum of Ireland have even gone to the USA (to take one example) and worked with the FBI to retrieve Irish archaeological material (not metal in this case), to prosecute those who took them out of the country and to bring the stuff home.


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    True. And people can convince themselves that ploughing etc destroys artefacts and so why not just metal detect and dig artefacts. Ploughing is a necessary part of farming and thus the economoy and cannot be avoided; metal detecting can. Indeed, I have excavated sites and found Bronze Age artefacts below 10-20cm of topsoil so it is not always the case that ploughing destroys sites. Additionally - not all fields are ploughed and are used for pasture and grazing. It is just another way of people hijacking archaeology for their own purpose because they believe they know more than the people who have trained in university and worked on site. If someone is interested in metal detecting purely to find things that can be sold on, then they have no respect for a commonly shared heritage. If they detect something and ring an archaeologist to excavate the site so that relationships can be understood and the results can be shown to all of the country, THEN they care about heritage and archaeology.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 lazyravey


    Jakub25 wrote: »
    Read this it isn't 100% illegal.

    The Law in Ireland
    Here in the Republic of Ireland, the law is quite different. Nobody is allowed to search for archaeological artifacts with a metal detector, unless they have a license from the relevant State body. In practice, only qualified archaeologists are granted such a license. Due to the amount of heritage material which is reputed to have been illegally excavated and sold for profit, sanctions against those who break the Republic's laws are severe: a maximum of five years imprisonment and/or a fine not exceeding £50,000 on indictment.

    Detectorists' Obligations
    Government spokespersons have always assured the Metal Detecting Society of Ireland that it is not the intention of Government to be unreasonable in the treatment of detector hobbyists, provided they do not break the law. This assurance is reflected, to some extent, in the fact that a Garda may seize, without warrant, any detection device being used on or near archaeologically listed areas, but may not do so in any other area. This does not mean, however, that detectors may be used indiscriminately in all areas other than those listed as archaeologically significant; there are many undiscovered archaeological sites, and a detectorist who comes across such a site should report it within the statuary four days, and do nothing to interfere with it. The same requirement of reporting within four days also applies to any individual archaeological object found in the State.

    Advice to Detectorists
    Put simply, archaeology is best left to archaeologists. Hobby detectorists will always have plenty of beaches, parks, swimming areas, and other non-sensitive places to go 'coinshooting'. A responsible attitude must also be taken to the prohibition of detecting 'on', 'near', or 'in the vicinity of' prohibited areas. These terms are not defined in Law, and at a meeting with the Department of Art, Culture and the Gaeltacht, MDSI committee members suggested a 'safety limit' of one half kilometer from the outer boundary of any prohibited area. Department officials stated that they could not accept this as a voluntary code, as the terms 'at, near, or in the vicinity of' could only be properly interpreted in a legal context and on an individual basis.

    The best advice we can give to Irish metal detector users is:

    Do not detect anywhere near archaeological sites.
    Do not detect on anyone's land without permission
    Observe the basic courtesies of the countryside by closing gates and not damaging crops.
    If you find an archaeological object - or site - report it immediately to your local Garda station or to the National Museum of Ireland. Phone 1890 MUSEUM (1890 - 687386)
    If you are uncertain of the area you want to detect, contact your local Garda station for advice.
    For More Information...
    Relevant literature on the subject is the National Monuments Act of 1930, and the amendments to it in 1954, 1987, and 1994. Copies of these documents are available from the Government Publications Office in Molesworth St, Dublin 2.


    So you think it is still illegal???

    Hi how is it going. I am currently studying heritage and I have a question in one of my upcoming exams on metal detecting in Ireland, the laws surrounding it and its managment. The answer you have given below is perfect for the answer I need on topic but just for the sake of being able to source it could you point me in the right direction. I have put in google searches for Irish laws on metal detecting and found nothing from a government body, I have also gone to the department of Arts, Heritage and Gealtacht affairs and found nothing. It would be handy for me to be able to check these laws in case they have been slightly modified and to also source where I have got the information. Many thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    Google National Monuments Act 1994. The first hits should be the Irish Statute book. All in there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6 lazyravey


    Thanks very much


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,437 ✭✭✭✭dvcireland


    I recently asked the National Museum of Ireland about metal detector use in Ireland, after seeing them been advertised for sale in Mapilin.

    Dear Mr dvcireland,
    Thank you for your inquiry about metal detecting in Ireland. In brief, it is illegal to use a metal detector to search for archaeological objects in Ireland. It is also illegal to dig or excavate archaeological objects without a licence to excavate. There are also restrictions on the possession of a metal detector on archaeological monuments. These restrictions apply to all citizens including professional archaeologists and also apply to the foreshore.
    Licensing of excavations has been in place since the first National Monuments Act of 1930 and further regulations have been enacted in subsequent amendments. The full details of current legislation can be seen at http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ResultsTitle.html?q=national+monuments&Simple_Search=Acts&Simple_Search=SIs.
    Please contact us if you have any further queries.
    Yours sincerely,
    Mary Cahill

    Mary Cahill
    Assistant Keeper
    Irish Antiquities Division
    National Museum of Ireland
    Kildare Street
    Dublin 2

    "...no Joe, you rang me !..." A.Caller.



  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    A Viking hoard discovered by a metal detector enthusiast in northern England has been hailed as one of the most important Viking finds in recent times.

    Darren Webster discovered them lying just 18 inches below the surface of a field in Silverdale in the city of Lancaster, Lancashire. The 201 objects, including coins, could be worth an incredible half-a-million pounds.

    Experts believe that one of the 27 coins carries the name of a previously unknown Viking ruler in northern England.

    One coin depicts the name Alwaldus, who is thought to have been the nephew of King Alfred the Great, who was king of the Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Wessex - which occupied what is now south west England - between 871 and 899.

    Lancaster City Museum is interested in buying the find for its collection.

    The proceeds are expected to be divided between Mr Webster and the owner of the land.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2074039/Incredible-Viking-hoard-blanks-murky-period-British-history.html


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13 dead_battery


    I took matters into my own hands and contacted the Minister for Heritage to ask him about metal detecting, just one Question, IS MD illegal in Ireland?

    Dear Mr. Scully,

    I have been asked by Mr Jimmy Deenihan TD, Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, to refer to your recent e-mail in relation to the use of metal detectors.

    I am enclosing for your information a copy of a reply given by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government (who was at that time responsible for the National Monuments Acts) to a Dáil Question last September in which the Minister set out the legal position in relation to the use and possession of metal detectors.

    As far as your plans are concerned, you would not be in conflict with the law, provided you were not using the metal detector:

    · in or at the site of a national monument or a monument listed on the Record of Monuments and Places and/or the Register of Historic Monuments;
    · in a registered archaeological area,
    · in a restricted area relating to the site of an historic shipwreck, or
    · to search for archaeological objects in any part of the State.

    I would suggest that when you have decided where you intend operating the metal detector you should either contact the Heritage Officer at the relevant local authority or consult the website www.archaelogy.ie to verify that the location(s) does not fall in to any of the above categories.

    It is possible to apply for a detection device licence via the online application facility on www.archaeology.ie. It is also possible to apply for a licence by post; a completed application form, together with a method statement and a map of the intended area of activity should be sent to

    Licensing Section
    National Monuments Service
    Rm G50
    Custom House
    Dublin 1.

    I should also explain that, as a condition of the licence, The National Museum of Ireland (www.museum.ie) must be notified, within four days, of any artefacts or archaeological objects discovered.

    I trust the above clarifies the matter.


    Yours sincerely



    ___________
    Keith Ashmore
    Private Secretary


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    I got a MD for xmas have to go to UK to use it laughable country we live in
    why just they ban them just out right and be done with it, its bit like the cigerates you can buy them but can not see them displayed another law thats tits up, if i want to buy some thing i want to see it 1st not under the counter


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    The Irish law on MDs is not laughable or stupid. The law was put in place because of the number of gobshytes going around in the 1980's digging holes all over archaeological sites when their MD started beeping with the sole purpose of trying to find artefacts so they could rich quick.

    The Derrynaflan Hoard and the Lough Kinale Book Shrine were found using MDs. The state was forced to pay big sums of money to the finders, £100,000 in the Lough Kinale case if memory serves. In a lot of other cases sites were badly damaged because the people digging holes didn't understand/appreciate that even if someting isn't shiny and pretty it still might have archaeological value.

    We can't have an outright ban MD's because the same technology has other applications eg. CATs used by engineers to scan for electirical & Telecoms pipes and ducts on building sites.

    While not perfect, the laws regulating Irish archaeology (with the exception of a good chunk of the 2004 National Monuments Act) are far stricter than in many other EU countries. This serves to benefit our heritage.

    Despite what a lot of people in this thread think, archaeology is not about finding arteacts, Its about finding out about the people who created the objects in the first place.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    Well how is stuff going to be found? like the uk they find hoards nearly every week, if it was done right with some form of club were members know what there doing and permissions ect. its ok for them to tarmac the hill of tara and yet they go on about guys digging a small hole with a trowel. at the end of the day its down to money nothing else and i can see this law changing soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    There's alot of stuff sold in shops that you can't use for certain purposes, but I agree they shouldn't really be selling them - and that is the way the law is more likely to change if you ask me. It's actually illegal to sell a metal detector for archaeological purposes - so if you were sold it for that reason, take it back and get your money back and report Maplin or whoever sold it to you. As someone who has used these cheap metal detectors in the past, they are pretty useless below the top 10-15 cms anyway - professional metal detectorists in the UK (and the criminals who use them here) spend more money on their equipment.

    How is this stuff going to be found? Do you have an interest in the artefacts or the treasure/money? If you have an interest in the money you have no more right to the heritage which has lain undisturbed in the ground for hundreds or thousands of years than you would have if you robbed it from the museum. If you have an interest in the heritage itself then get involved in an archaeological society and join a project. Volunteering on an excavation might demonstrate to you how much archaeology (of the monetarily worthless kind) there is on an archaeological site in comparison to a metal object. Digging holes in this destroys it.

    The usual way it is found is controlled archaeological excavation. Usually this precedes development which is going to destroy features and finds and is built into the planning legislation - but then most people don't like paying for this when they just want to make their bit of money off the land do they?

    We don't have detectors for bone or wood objects - are you suggesting we only go looking for metal treasure? We can detect previously unknown sites with geophysical survey equipment without breaking ground. This is similar to metal detecting in that it needs a licence but illustrates (if conditions are right) the sub-soil features below the ground - but again this costs money. Why should a cheap gimmicky object like a metal detector be responsible for the looting of archaeological sites? It's a blunt tool used for the wrong reasons that leads to the theft and destruction of our heritage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    By the way, when was the last time you visited the Hill of Tara - it has not been concreted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 154 ✭✭RollYerOwn


    Batsy - ah. The Daily Mail. What a source. May as well have posted something from Viz.

    When I lifted the lead pot out of the ground there was a hole underneath and silver started to fall out. That is when I realised I had found something important.’

    Only then?

    Note the lack of mention of any archaeological excavations at the site - where are the important questions here? Oh - sorry, perhaps the answer you were looking for was to the question "Who gets the free money for this stuff?". The Lancaster Museum will undoubtedly have to ask all its visitors and local people for contributions towards paying off the finder and the landowner.

    If they can't afford it, maybe some nice Chinese or Swiss banker will be decorating his bathroom in "Genuine Viking Trinkets", along with the other stuff he got off ebay.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    patwicklow wrote: »
    Well how is stuff going to be found? like the uk they find hoards nearly every week, if it was done right with some form of club were members know what there doing and permissions ect. its ok for them to tarmac the hill of tara and yet they go on about guys digging a small hole with a trowel. at the end of the day its down to money nothing else and i can see this law changing soon.


    I am worried about what you are going to do with this metal detector.
    You don't seem to understand how 'getting a hit' and then 'digging a small hole with a trowel' is a selfish act of vandalism.
    The size of the hole is unimportant - a little hole doesn't cause a little bit of damage.

    It is a central principle of archaeology that excavation is destruction. Excavation is only carried out where there is a defined threat to a known site (as in road construction etc.) or if a site is revealed as a result of some other activity.

    Go down to the beach and look for coins or offer your services to a builder who is trying to locate pipes or cables - but please leave our heritage alone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    patwicklow wrote: »
    Well how is stuff going to be found? like the uk they find hoards nearly every week, if it was done right with some form of club were members know what there doing and permissions ect. its ok for them to tarmac the hill of tara and yet they go on about guys digging a small hole with a trowel. at the end of the day its down to money nothing else and i can see this law changing soon.

    'Stuff' is found by proper archaeological excavations. We have a very strict licensing system which guarantees that excavations are carries out in the correct manner. In Ireland, archaeological artefacts are the property of the state i.e. they are the property of the Irish people, not individuals.

    Only competent archaeologists are allowed run excavations and apply for licences to use MDs. It takes years of hard work with shyte pay to become a competent archaeologist.

    The MD issue has nothing to do with money. It's not about jobs for the boys. It's about protecting our heritage. That is all.

    Ireland's position on not allowing MDs be used by amateurs is the correct one. Thankfully, there is zero chance of this changing anytime soon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    slowburner wrote: »
    I am worried about what you are going to do with this metal detector.
    You don't seem to understand how 'getting a hit' and then 'digging a small hole with a trowel' is a selfish act of vandalism.
    The size of the hole is unimportant - a little hole doesn't cause a little bit of damage.

    It is a central principle of archaeology that excavation is destruction. Excavation is only carried out where there is a defined threat to a known site (as in road construction etc.) or if a site is revealed as a result of some other activity.

    Go down to the beach and look for coins or offer your services to a builder who is trying to locate pipes or cables - but please leave our heritage alone.

    Well guys i understand your point of view on heritage ect and dont worry i wont be digging holes all over the place as i gave it to my nephew when they headed back to the uk today. And no im not into robbing or being a vandal.

    Beach would have been fine for me as you say, but i thought i needed a permit for that to. i would not it the slightest interfere with any site of that importance.

    All i am stating is they should be banned out right then there would be no problem any were, well its the first time i have given away a xmas present.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭Batsy


    RollYerOwn wrote: »
    Batsy - ah. The Daily Mail. What a source. May as well have posted something from Viz.

    So no Viking hoard was found? Poor Mr Webster must have imagined it.
    Note the lack of mention of any archaeological excavations at the site - where are the important questions here? Oh - sorry, perhaps the answer you were looking for was to the question "Who gets the free money for this stuff?". The Lancaster Museum will undoubtedly have to ask all its visitors and local people for contributions towards paying off the finder and the landowner.

    If they can't afford it, maybe some nice Chinese or Swiss banker will be decorating his bathroom in "Genuine Viking Trinkets", along with the other stuff he got off ebay.

    The Silverdale Viking Hoard has been declared as treasure by Lancashire deputy coroner Simon Jones at a hearing in Lancaster.

    Lancashire Finds Liaison Officer Dot Boughton said the hoard was "very significant".

    The hoard will be valued around the middle of this month and Lancaster City Museum is interested in buying it. It could be worth as much as half-a-million pounds.

    In accordance with the law, any proceeds of a sale will be divided equally between the landowner and Mr Webster.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-16215847


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,246 ✭✭✭✭Riamfada


    Surely almost all of the UK must have been covered by MD at this stage. There must be no heritage left in the ground anymore. Well nothing discernible :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    RollYerOwn wrote: »
    There's alot of stuff sold in shops that you can't use for certain purposes, but I agree they shouldn't really be selling them - and that is the way the law is more likely to change if you ask me. It's actually illegal to sell a metal detector for archaeological purposes - so if you were sold it for that reason, take it back and get your money back and report Maplin or whoever sold it to you. As someone who has used these cheap metal detectors in the past, they are pretty useless below the top 10-15 cms anyway - professional metal detectorists in the UK (and the criminals who use them here) spend more money on their equipment.

    How is this stuff going to be found? Do you have an interest in the artefacts or the treasure/money? If you have an interest in the money you have no more right to the heritage which has lain undisturbed in the ground for hundreds or thousands of years than you would have if you robbed it from the museum. If you have an interest in the heritage itself then get involved in an archaeological society and join a project. Volunteering on an excavation might demonstrate to you how much archaeology (of the monetarily worthless kind) there is on an archaeological site in comparison to a metal object. Digging holes in this destroys it.

    The usual way it is found is controlled archaeological excavation. Usually this precedes development which is going to destroy features and finds and is built into the planning legislation - but then most people don't like paying for this when they just want to make their bit of money off the land do they?

    We don't have detectors for bone or wood objects - are you suggesting we only go looking for metal treasure? We can detect previously unknown sites with geophysical survey equipment without breaking ground. This is similar to metal detecting in that it needs a licence but illustrates (if conditions are right) the sub-soil features below the ground - but again this costs money. Why should a cheap gimmicky object like a metal detector be responsible for the looting of archaeological sites? It's a blunt tool used for the wrong reasons that leads to the theft and destruction of our heritage.


    :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    :rolleyes:
    :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    patwicklow wrote: »
    All i am stating is they should be banned out right then there would be no problem any were, well its the first time i have given away a xmas present.

    The answer probably is they can't, one of my lecturers mentioned that Sweden was in trouble with the EU over its extremely strict laws* due to 'free movement goods' laws, here's some links I found but they all seem to date from 2010 so not sure what the resolution of the issue was.

    http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/10/1223&type=HTML

    http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2010/10/european_commission_rules_agai.php

    http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2010/12/swedish_cabinet_opens_door_to.php

    * personally I agree with Irelands strict laws and don't really understand why in the UK metal detector users appear to have become respectable in the eyes researchers etc, though I'd guess the positive media attention they get from the media for their shiny finds probably helps.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    :rolleyes:

    What a stunningly brilliant post!

    A professional archaeologist explains the damage metal detectors can do and all you can do to respond is post a fookin smiley!

    At the very least you should try to formulate a sentence to explain an opposing position.

    Only sissys use smileys


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭TOMP


    Attached are scans of a leaflet/brochure from National Museum of Ireland about metal detecting in Ireland, dates from mid to late 1990's.

    NationalMuseumTop.jpg

    NationalMuseumBottom.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    TOMP wrote: »
    Attached are scans of a leaflet/brochure from National Museum of Ireland about metal detecting in Ireland, dates from mid to late 1990's.

    NationalMuseumTop.jpg

    NationalMuseumBottom.jpg

    Very out dated any new info as we are in europe now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,541 ✭✭✭Gee Bag


    patwicklow wrote: »
    Very out dated any new info as we are in europe now.

    The National Monuments Act (1994) is still in effect in Ireland. The information set out in the leaflets from the National Museum is correct.

    Ireland joined the EU in 1973. There is no EU directive regarding the use of metal detectors. Therefore, it is up to each individual EU member state to regulate the issue in whatever manner they deem fit.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,937 ✭✭✭patwicklow


    Gee Bag wrote: »
    The National Monuments Act (1994) is still in effect in Ireland. The information set out in the leaflets from the National Museum is correct.

    Ireland joined the EU in 1973. There is no EU directive regarding the use of metal detectors. Therefore, it is up to each individual EU member state to regulate the issue in whatever manner they deem fit.

    Well it sould be more updated i got a metal detector for xmax gave it away as i did want to be deemed (and the criminals who use them here) as stated in other posts they sould be banned out right and taxes sould not be collected on them.


This discussion has been closed.
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