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Church teachings on sexuality irrelevant to %75

  • 12-04-2012 1:31pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭


    Church teachings on sexuality irrelevant to 75%

    After the recent census report, a bit of reality.....

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0412/breaking31.html

    The Church's teachings on sexuality have “no relevance” to 75 per cent of Irish Catholics or their families, a new survey has found.
    It has also established that 87 per cent of Irish Catholics believe priests should be allowed marry, 77 per cent believe there should be women priests while 72 per cent believe older, married, men should be allowed become priests.
    The Amárach survey also found weekly Mass attendance in Ireland, at 35 per cent, is one of the highest in Europe.
    Commissioned by the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP), the Contemporary Catholic Perspectives survey was carried out among 1,000 Catholics throughout the island of Ireland over a two-week period in February.
    Where the Church’s teaching on homosexuality was concerned, 46 per cent “disagree strongly”, while five per cent “agree strongly”.
    It found 61 per cent disagree with the Church on the issue while 18 per cent consider homosexuality immoral.
    Where divorced and/or separated people in a second stable relationship are concerned, 87 per cent believe they should be allowed to take communion.
    Just five per cent say they should not.
    Five times as many Irish Catholics believe the Church is subservient to Rome compared to those who believe it is independent, with more than one in four (or 28 per cent) believing it to be "completely subservient".
    A small majority (55 per cent) believe that Bishops should serve for a fixed term while the remainder are divided between those who believe a bishop should serve until age 75, or for as long as the bishop likes.
    Forty five per cent of priests and 63 per cent of lay people believe there should be more involvement of laity and priests in choosing a bishop. Just five per cent of lay people and 10 per cent of priests believe there should be less involvement.


    Inevitably, there is a discussion about this on Liveline at the moment


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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,553 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    fisgon wrote: »
    The Amárach survey also found weekly Mass attendance in Ireland, at 35 per cent, is one of the highest in Europe.

    Commissioned by the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP), the Contemporary Catholic Perspectives survey was carried out among 1,000 Catholics throughout the island of Ireland over a two-week period in February.
    I assume that figure for mass attendance should be mass attendance of catholics, given who was surveyed.

    Interesting report though not really surprising. Irish people can clearly believe church policies are wrong on all sorts of matters and still regard themselves (and their kids) as catholic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    So... They're functionally Protestant? Hilarious.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    fisgon wrote: »
    The Church's teachings on sexuality have “no relevance” to 75 per cent of Irish Catholics or their families, a new survey has found.
    Would I be right in thinking that at least half of the remaining 25% are women beyond childbearing age?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    The ACP seem like a lovely bunch of lads.
    They will be nailing the survey summary to the doors of the Pro Cathedral next.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭fisgon


    Zamboni wrote: »
    The ACP seem like a lovely bunch of lads.
    They will be nailing the survey summary to the doors of the Pro Cathedral next.

    Yeah, I find it hilarious that a survey that shows up just exactly how unCatholic Irish Catholics are was commissioned by Irish Catholic priests.

    It's funny, because I was just thinking recently, in light of the 84% census results, that some atheist or humanist group should commission exactly such a survey, to show up the real state of Irish religious belief. And the priests go and do it! That's mad, Ted.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,386 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    fisgon wrote: »
    That's mad, Ted.
    Well, Flannery has a few weeks to think about it all:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0412/1224314639690.html
    [...] The Vatican has suggested that Fr Tony Flannery take himself to a monastery for six weeks to pray and to reflect on his liberal views. [...] The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF) – which upholds the teaching and doctrine of the Catholic Church and disciplines theological dissenters – has stopped Fr Flannery writing further articles on a number of issues: contraception, celibacy of priests, and the ordination of women priests. And the CDF has asked him to withdraw from the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP), of which he is a founding member. [...]

    The harsh disciplinary measures taken against Fr Flannery have come shortly after publication of the summary findings of the Vatican’s apostolic visitation to Ireland. [...] Last week, Pope Benedict once again warned that he will not tolerate priests who disobey the essential teachings of the church.

    The domestic reaction, from sections of the laity and some clergy, to the Vatican’s disciplinary action has been one of regret and concern. The ACP has described the Vatican’s intervention as “unfair, unwarranted and unwise”. And it may well, as the association has warned, increase the public perception of a significant “disconnect” between the Irish church and Rome. Fr Flannery has spent many years developing the views that he now holds, views that were no doubt influenced and shaped by prayer and reflection. But six more weeks spent in silent isolation in a monastery engaged in further prayerful reflection may not produce the outcome the Vatican now hopes from its disciplining of one it, wrongly, regards as a turbulent priest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,537 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    robindch wrote: »
    Well, Flannery has a few weeks to think about it all:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/0412/1224314639690.html

    The church hierarchy really do come down hard on dissenters. But if a priest rapes an innocent child, well, they just shift him somewhere else. Priorities are definitely in order. :rolleyes:

    Why is there a pope? Just thought of that now. My Dad laughs at stupid protestants because they don't recognise the pope and his big hat. Neither do the other christian religions.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    Brendan Hoban from the ACP is on Q102 now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Do they think its a democracy, and they can just vote for a rule change?
    If they don't like the rules, they should leave the club.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    recedite wrote: »
    Do they think its a democracy, and they can just vote for a rule change?
    If they don't like the rules, they should leave the club.

    If only we could.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,370 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    RichieC wrote: »
    If only we could.

    Yes you can!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Yeah, just because they say you can't ever leave, doesnt mean you can't.
    Or do you still believe the old guy is infallible?
    Anyway, how many "former" boy scouts have certificates of resignation? Just go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    recedite wrote: »
    Yeah, just because they say you can't ever leave, doesnt mean you can't.
    Or do you still believe the old guy is infallible?
    Anyway, how many "former" boy scouts have certificates of resignation? Just go.

    Somebody mentioned boy scouts in another thread, it is a very poor analogy and I am saddened to see it spread to other threads.

    Once you stop paying your dues or once you reach a certain age you automatically become "not a boy scout." As an organisation it has certain rules, those rules includes reasons why you might be no longer considered to be a member.

    If the boy scouts claimed you forever and used your membership 20 years ago to try to claim a mandate and influence policy then it might be a fair analogy, but they don't, so it isn't.

    MrP


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    recedite wrote: »
    Do they think its a democracy, and they can just vote for a rule change?
    If they don't like the rules, they should leave the club.

    It looks to me like the beginning of some sort of schism. Maybe in the not too distant future Ireland's Catholics will be divided between those loyal to Rome and the 'liberal Catholics' (a phrase I had not heard until reading the Indo yesterday I'll give you one guess as to who it was who said it).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    Sarky wrote: »
    So... They're functionally Protestant? Hilarious.

    Shhhh! Don't tell them that, they'll get freaked out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    There are a number of letters in today's Indo pointing out that these folks are protestants in all but name, even one calling on them to join the CoI. Naturally, they also found a letter for 'balance' where some one praised the church for not falling into "mob rule".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,230 ✭✭✭Solair


    "Mob rule": isn't that what aristocrats, oligarchs and dictators usually call democracy?


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    No no no, Protestants are those guys who oppressed your grandfather. Catholics support Celtic and drink beer.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,863 ✭✭✭mikhail


    Solair wrote: »
    "Mob rule": isn't that what aristocrats, oligarchs and dictators usually call democracy?
    And what black folks called lynchings. People are free to believe in that stuff or not. It just staggers me that anyone with real faith could look at the Vatican's recent record and still think that this is the divinely inspired rule of a god's representiative on Earth. Unless they're whittling the faithful down to that 144,000 number in Revelations.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭Newaglish


    I was curious as to the 35% figure for Mass attendance - it seems higher than what I predict a national average to be for the infamous "84%". I then noticed that the sample was of 1,000 "catholics". How is this determined? What definition of catholic did they use? I presume for them to have a list of catholic people to distribute the survey to, it was either done via mail shot to members of a particular catholic organisation, or handed out to individuals at a particular catholic event. I'm not really sure that this would give you a representative sample?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,137 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Newaglish wrote: »
    I was curious as to the 35% figure for Mass attendance - it seems higher than what I predict a national average to be for the infamous "84%". I then noticed that the sample was of 1,000 "catholics". How is this determined? What definition of catholic did they use? I presume for them to have a list of catholic people to distribute the survey to, it was either done via mail shot to members of a particular catholic organisation, or handed out to individuals at a particular catholic event. I'm not really sure that this would give you a representative sample?
    Commissioned by the Association of Catholic Priests (ACP), the Contemporary Catholic Perspectives survey was carried out among 1,000 Catholics throughout the island of Ireland over a two-week period in February.

    So I'm assuming they may have interviewed people on the street with the first question being "Are you Catholic?".

    If the 84% from the Census is based on whether people consider themselves to be Catholic, then so would this survey.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Skrynesaver


    Galvasean wrote: »
    No no no, Protestants are those guys who oppressed your grandfather. Catholics support Celtic and drink beer.

    Nail on the head there, Catholicism is a sectarian tribal badge for, probably the majority of, self identified Catholics in Ireland having nothing to do with belief or custom.

    If they move towards a smaller purer church, as promised, I for one will be delighted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    If they move towards a smaller purer church, as promised, I for one will be delighted.

    They won't though, because 'Protestant' is still seen as a bad word / boogeyman for many Irish.
    More chance of them forming their own 'Irish Catholic' as opposed to 'Roman catholic' church. Now that would be most interesting...


  • Registered Users Posts: 891 ✭✭✭redfacedbear


    Nothing surprising here I think. Would have been interesting had they gone into some of the more fundamental RC theology - resurrection, transubstanstiation, papal infallibility etc. I can get my head around somebody still considering themselves a catholic while disregarding teaching on sexuality. But somebody who does so while being iffy on the resurrection (and I've met some) that just bamboozles me!


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    . But somebody who does so while being iffy on the resurrection (and I've met some) that just bamboozles me!

    Since 10% of Catholics apparently don't believe in God that is surely the greatest indicator that it is seen as more of a cultural identification sort of thing than an actual set of religious beliefs.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Penn wrote: »
    So I'm assuming they may have interviewed people on the street with the first question being "Are you Catholic?".

    If the 84% from the Census is based on whether people consider themselves to be Catholic, then so would this survey.

    Im arguing from ignorance here but the ACP survey was on opinions of mostly non practicing catholics. It isn not therefore surprising since most of them dont practice one rule most of the sample would also not practice another rule.

    In addition say "most Texans favour the death penalty" or even most Catholic Texans do. If the Vatican oppose the death penalty are most Texans therefore right and the Vatican wrong?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,736 ✭✭✭smokingman


    ISAW wrote: »
    If the Vatican oppose the death penalty are most Texans therefore right and the Vatican wrong?

    There's a world of difference in being right about not killing and believing in magic.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    smokingman wrote: »
    There's a world of difference in being right about not killing and believing in magic.

    Not from the logic of the argument made there isnt.

    If "most people" say something is true that does not make it true if it isn't true.


  • Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    ISAW wrote: »
    If "most people" say something is true that does not make it true if it isn't true.

    So most people in Ireland aren't Catholic? gotcha.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,142 ✭✭✭ISAW


    Galvasean wrote: »
    So most people in Ireland aren't Catholic? gotcha.

    Touché

    but most people say they are Catholic is their opinion.
    Most people might say the law of gravity is not true . We can measure that and prove it is true. It would not alter the FACT that their opinion is it isnt true.

    You would have to propose a measure of what makes most people in irlend not catholis.
    Clearly people are saying "not going to mass"
    This would mean/measure most people in dublin certainly are not practicing catholic
    But that does not mean they dont believe in christ or god.
    Certainly they arent atheist

    Coup fourré


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