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Dolph Ziggler

24

Comments

  • #32
    Jolt2007
    Registered Users Posts: 1,153 ✭✭✭Jolt2007


    DM-ICE wrote: »
    None of the names you mentioned were buried. I think you are thinking of Carltio who responded terribly to any challenges put on front of him. Can you imagine the disaster WWE would of had on their hands if they pushed Carlito without testing his metal first.

    It takes years for most guys to build a profile that allows them become major players and fans to begin to accept it. Look at how long it took many fans to start accepting Punk despite the years he had outside WWE. If it wasn't for Jeff Hardy's popularity even less people would care about Punk. Now I think of It Jeff is proof of how the cream can rise even if they mess up, but they have to keep trying to prove themselves, don't give up like carlito. Jeff proved himself a star even when booked in a way that held him back. Its up to Swagger and Ziggler to prove themselves too.

    We both want to see guys getting a fair crack at being a star. Dolph and Swagger will get a chance once they prove they are ready.

    If I was Vince I would want to see them proving they are in it for the long run before investing serious time in them. Otherwise you get a disaster case who can't deal with the lifestyle or a guy who ****s off like Brock.

    I was thinking it could be something along the same lines. With the amateur backgrounds Ziggler and Swagger have it wouldn't surprise me one bit if Vince was paranoid that they might leave for MMA at some point, especially if Shane is going to the UFC. If that's the reason it's somewhat understandable, slightly, I guess, kind of...


  • #33
    Paulegend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,175 ✭✭✭Paulegend


    i dont like dolph myself but how would rey get that much of a say when he was been suspended for being naughty????

    i mean come on...................


  • #34
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    You bring up some interesting points, DM-ICE. Good job!

    Giving Carlito little pushes here and there was a good idea to see if he's passionate about the business - he clearly isn't - but who knows if the passion was not killed by given little pushes here and there? That said, his character never evolved, or progressed, so I wouldn't put him more than IC/US title status...All we can say for certain is that he doesn't care about WWE now.

    My theory is that, even though talent are ready for a push, they make them wait it out a few years to
    1) see what they're like when they're stagnant (i.e. prove that they love WWE) and
    2) Give them something to do when they're older (aka not 'blow their load' when they're so young in their careers, have them 'finally' lift that world title.)

    I do agree that WWE have the 'right' to test people, but WWE are highly reticent to commit to pushing a mid-carder. They push the bare minimum possible. If they didn't have such hang-ups of giving more people keys to the main event washroom, they wouldn't have the mind-numbingly stale main event scene.

    I also bring up the point that WWE fans are starving for new talent. Anyone half decent, the crowd will react to (Kozlov, Khali are far away from being half decent!)...there's no downside to giving Ziggler or Swagger a run with the midcard title, since the belt means nothing anyway. In fact, it would be a great idea, because it would give them more responsibilities and see how they cope with being a little further up the card.
    "Look at how long it took many fans to start accepting Punk despite the years he had outside WWE."

    Although it's on a much smaller scale, CM Punk proved he could wrestle and cut promos before he went to WWE. You'll recall he was the most over guy at Survivor Series 2006 (where even Triple H had to admit it when cutting his DX promo), he was crazy over in general. He immediately had the crowd hooked - he has that X-factor. WWE purposefully de-pushed him but taking away his 'different' style of wrestling and took him off the mic. Creatively WWE buried Punk, offering re-starts and stops so the vast majority stopped caring about Punk. Finally -out of nowhere; ending his losing streak- they decide to push him again (maybe it was because they didn't want to push Christian at MITB, who knows). WWE decide to put 'the machine' behind him and give him main-event storylines, and the fans warm to it. But that's only because WWE warmed to him.

    I submit to you that WWE knowingly sabotaged Punk's inital push (he was already over) because then Vince McMahon couldn't say "I made CM Punk". But if you bury him long enough, so that he's no longer over, and build him back up, Vince can say "I made CM Punk. He wasn't over but we made him over". Is that ludicrous? To me it seems that if mid-carders last long enough in WWE (i.e., don't get fired) they'll get a main-event push. Of course there are exceptions, like Shelton Benjamin...who I'd put in the 'Carlito' file.

    I'm using CM Punk as an example, but people like RVD, and Booker T, did eventually get their runs...but they were clearly ready years before that happened.


  • #35
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    Jeff Hardy is an odd case. He has that intangible x-factor (not the move) that the crowd really respond to -- and always have in droves since 1999. I think Jeff's passion for the business has always been in question, and rightly so. He's proven many times over that he can't be trusted. Despite that WWE still decided to put the belt on him (albeit on a worthless PPV and the worst title reign since Rey Mysterio). Ziggler and Swagger will never have the connection that Jeff Hardy does with the audience. It's not something you can train for or, for the most part, work at, it's just something you have. I hold WWE harmless for Jeff Hardy, it's always been Jeff Hardy holding Jeff Hardy back.

    Anyway, what I'm saying is that mid-carders are always a month or two away from being ready for the mid-card title, and WWE have a serious complex about elevating talent. "Guys aren't ready" etc etc, like Rob Van Dam, Booker T, etc? Ridiculous. I think that's just scaremongering tactics (I'm not pointing fingers, Triple H!)

    But yes, definitely, they've got talent and they''ll get their chance...Hopefully they won't be dropped, like Elijah Burke, and become a street-pimp.

    I'd also like to bring up that WWE brought Brock Lesnar on themselves. They motor'ed him through OVW (6 months?) and brought him on TV immediately. 4 months later he was Undisputed Champion. Even though he's highly credible as a champion, he's still too young in the business. WWE booked him like he was on borrowed time. He had not had a proper feud before winning the belt and taking it to Smackdown - and that's a shame. Maybe WWE would've found out that they backed another stray horse without committing themselves if they hadn't blown their load with Brock as quick as possible.

    It was a huge shame that Lesnar didn't face -well, almost every main-eventer in a feud - Triple H immediately springs to mind. But great performances with RVD and Test, both could've been feuds....

    Anyway, there's my 2 cents. But by the length of the texts, it's 5 or 6 cents :pac::pac::pac:


  • #36
    davrho
    Closed Accounts Posts: 758 ✭✭✭davrho


    The bottom line here is the shareholders dont think Dolph can make them money. Dance it up any other way but reality is there to see.


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  • #37
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    The McMahons own about 69% of the stock, but carry 95% of the voting rights as most of the shares carry very limited (if it all) voting rights.

    (Thanks, Piledriver! :))

    This really means that Vince McMahon has complete authority to book whatever he wants, Shareholders have no creative power whatsoever. Vince used company money in his terrible Million Dollar Mania (:confused::D). He can push whoever he likes. It's him (Steph and Trips too) Ziggler has to please!


  • #38
    DM_7
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭DM_7


    I enjoyed reading your posts jaykhunter.

    I agree with alot of your thoughts. Especially WWE only have themselves to blame for Brock, they did take Punk down when he was popular at an early stage and there is little to be lost by giving a mid card title to someone.

    Just the RVD and booker examples may not be the best. RVD was a pot head while booker was a wcw guy. Vince was always going to take a long time to get behind them.


  • #39
    TheCandystripes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 553 ✭✭✭TheCandystripes


    Ziggler wasnt even the best in Spirit Squad. He was the guy who did nothing. Doane and Jeter were epic.


  • #40
    gimmick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,296 ✭✭✭✭gimmick


    Just because he did not stand out then does not count for much. It is very easy to be lost in such a big group. Thing is, is that Zigglers work ethic may be a lot stronger than the 2 you mentioned, hence the reason he is bring pushed and the others never got anywhere.


  • #41
    Rjd2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,992 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    DM-ICE wrote: »
    None of the names you mentioned were buried. I think you are thinking of Carltio who responded terribly to any challenges put on front of him. Can you imagine the disaster WWE would of had on their hands if they pushed Carlito without testing his metal first.



    We both want to see guys getting a fair crack at being a star. Dolph and Swagger will get a chance once they prove they are ready.

    .

    Carlito got a brutal burial from son in law cant really blame him for getting disillusioned with the company, the boy was over in 2006 and 2007 but people like to forget that.
    Ziggler has been around for years and was treated pretty miserably in his spirit squad days by son in law and his BBF and he spent a solid year jobbing on Raw after his re debut. Its going to take some incredible work for the E to get him over but heh he can look at MVP and how he bounced back from his losing streak. :pac:


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  • #42
    Riddle101
    Registered Users Posts: 8,375 ✭✭✭Riddle101


    I don't know if I can believe that Rey Mysterio would actually refuse to job to Ziggler. Unless he really wanted to drop it to John Morrison but still, that seems cold for someone to basically put down another talent. Rey dosen't strike me as the a guy who would refuse to job, especially since a lot of people have gone out of their way to make Rey look good when they could have easily refused to job to him.


  • #43
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    DM-ICE wrote: »
    Just the RVD and booker examples may not be the best. RVD was a pot head while booker was a wcw guy. Vince was always going to take a long time to get behind them.

    :pac::pac::pac: Pot-head! :D I think it boils down to "Vince didn't create them" syndrome. Vince (apparently) honestly thinks he's responsible for the fans chanting ECW! (Which is a completely ridiculous train of thought.) The main points against RVD (over the years) was that he was 'inconsistent' and well, Triple H hated him. RVD always had a decent match, maybe it was his loyalty to WWE wasn't through-and-through, and so WWE were hesitant to push him. I can't recall any bad RVD matches. I think it's a bit of scare-mongering. RVD has always had a solid fan following, despite not doing much from 2002-2006 :eek::) (except for his title run month :o)

    About pot, I personally don't smoke it but if it keeps wrestlers from using 'harder' painkillers, I'm all for it. If RVD's willing to pay the fine for using pot (it's gone up from $1,000 to $2,500 :P) then let him use it. I'd much rather have an army of pot-heads than wrestlers addicted to painkillers (aka accidental death waiting to happen :()

    But yeah, I'm sure Vince didn't want pot-advocate RVD as the face of the company...it's WWE's loss....

    The idea of bringing in WCW talent and burying them for years and years is just ridiculous! It also smacks of jealousy that someone can get over despite WWE... It's really spiteful, and a bad way to do business. Both the wrestler and the company lose out...The inVasion of 2001 was botched so badly -on purpose- that WWE mandated that it not be included in the newest Rise & Fall of WCW DVD... that inVasion angle was intended to bury WCW and all of it's talent instead of making money...boggles the mind! I'll never understand why WWE don't want 20 main eventers instead of 5... Any thoughts?


  • #44
    jaykhunter
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,013 Mod ✭✭✭✭jaykhunter


    Riddle101 wrote: »
    I don't know if I can believe that Rey Mysterio would actually refuse to job to Ziggler.

    I think it was more of a case of Mysterio doesn't want to lose his belt, and as a consequence his opponents won't win the belt. I don't understand why he didn't lose it to Ziggler on the way out...I mentioned a few ideas why above.


  • #45
    DM_7
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭DM_7


    Rjd2 wrote: »
    Carlito got a brutal burial from son in law cant really blame him for getting disillusioned with the company, the boy was over in 2006 and 2007 but people like to forget that.
    Ziggler has been around for years and was treated pretty miserably in his spirit squad days by son in law and his BBF and he spent a solid year jobbing on Raw after his re debut. Its going to take some incredible work for the E to get him over but heh he can look at MVP and how he bounced back from his losing streak. :pac:

    Carlito was over in fans eyes but why was that? He was made US champ on his debut, he showed plenty of effort whan things were going well. But when he was tested he failed the test. He got sloppy in the ring and showed no desire at all. Look how long it took Bret hart to reach the top, years and years but he never gave up no matter what lump he was stuck wrestling with.

    Ziggler is a long time wwe employee. He isn't even 30 yet. If he puts the effort, keeps learning and shows desire he will be fine.

    I can't explain the MVP one. He was a very good heel.


  • #46
    Rjd2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,992 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    On Carlito...
    He was over, and he looked creditable against guys like Cena but when Hunter went on his infamous burial spree of late 2007 he was the main victim. Not his fault that Son in Law needed an ego boost. He was also very good in the tag team with his brother until his bizarre heel turn. The lad would make an excellent face on a non Hunter show preferably ECW as well. :)


  • #47
    DM_7
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,107 Mod ✭✭✭✭DM_7


    Rjd2 wrote: »
    On Carlito...
    He was over, and he looked creditable against guys like Cena but when Hunter went on his infamous burial spree of late 2007 he was the main victim. Not his fault that Son in Law needed an ego boost. He was also very good in the tag team with his brother until his bizarre heel turn. The lad would make an excellent face on a non Hunter show preferably ECW as well. :)

    Well if you enjoy his work that fair enough.

    I think he has the talent but alot of the time he looks like a guy that doesn't care, to me anyways.

    Ziggler would love to have Carlitos charisma to go with his intensity.


  • #48
    JP Liz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,588 ✭✭✭JP Liz


    The 2009 Holiday issue of WWE Magazine features an interview with Dolph Ziggler, in which he predicts when he will become a World Champion in WWE:

    "Well, my first goal is winning the Intercontinental Championship," Ziggler responded after being asked how long it will be before he hoists a World Championship above his head. "I've given myself six months to do it, and right now I'm nearing the five-month mark. After that, I plan to establish myself as the greatest Intercontinental Champion ever. A year and a half after that, I will become a World Champion."


  • #49
    geeky
    Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭geeky


    JP Liz wrote: »
    The 2009 Holiday issue of WWE Magazine features an interview with Dolph Ziggler, in which he predicts when he will become a World Champion in WWE:

    "Well, my first goal is winning the Intercontinental Championship," Ziggler responded after being asked how long it will be before he hoists a World Championship above his head. "I've given myself six months to do it, and right now I'm nearing the five-month mark. After that, I plan to establish myself as the greatest Intercontinental Champion ever. A year and a half after that, I will become a World Champion."

    So it seems wee Dolph is either getting the strap in the next month (freeing up Jo-mo to get some upper-midcard/fringes of the main event feuds going)... or they're setting him up for a fall. Guess we'll know soon enough


  • #50
    Rjd2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,992 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    geeky wrote: »
    So it seems wee Dolph is either getting the strap in the next month (freeing up Jo-mo to get some upper-midcard/fringes of the main event feuds going)... or they're setting him up for a fall. Guess we'll know soon enough

    Well seeing as Jo Mo has been working with Drew on house shows and they have a match on Smackdown, I think Dolph won't be seeing gold for a long time. :eek:


  • #51
    geeky
    Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭geeky


    Rjd2 wrote: »
    Well seeing as Jo Mo has been working with Drew on house shows and they have a match on Smackdown, I think Dolph won't be seeing gold for a long time. :eek:

    Booooo! I cheered for him like bejaysus when they were at the 02. My 9-year-old brother-in-law did too (respect). Guess the fatcats in WWE didn't hear... :mad:


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  • #52
    JP Liz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,588 ✭✭✭JP Liz


    A new "After the Bell" segment on WWE's website teases that Dolph Ziggler and Vickie Guerrero may be a new on-screen couple.


  • #53
    Tricity Bendix
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,510 ✭✭✭Tricity Bendix


    JP Liz wrote: »
    A new "After the Bell" segment on WWE's website teases that Dolph Ziggler and Vickie Guerrero may be a new on-screen couple.

    Poor Vickie. She deserves better than this same old, insulting storyline.

    Only good thing is we could see Ziggler as a returning Edge's first feud.


  • #54
    Bounty Hunter
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 22,625 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bounty Hunter


    Tricity Bendix wrote: »
    Poor Vickie. She deserves better than this same old, insulting storyline.

    Only good thing is we could see Ziggler as a returning Edge's first feud.

    after Jericho id presume/hope


  • #55
    JP Liz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,588 ✭✭✭JP Liz


    What happened to Ziggler's so called "relationship" with Maria and her feuding with McCool for him :confused:

    Edge's main and first feud on his return has to be Jericho


  • #56
    Rjd2
    Registered Users Posts: 11,992 ✭✭✭✭Rjd2


    JP Liz wrote: »
    What happened to Ziggler's so called "relationship" with Maria and her feuding with McCool for him :confused:

    Edge's main and first feud on his return has to be Jericho

    Dolph ditched her a few months ago after she accidentally cost him a win against Jo Mo in a IC match.


  • #57
    geeky
    Registered Users Posts: 2,380 ✭✭✭geeky


    JP Liz wrote: »
    A new "After the Bell" segment on WWE's website teases that Dolph Ziggler and Vickie Guerrero may be a new on-screen couple.

    Yawn. It was fun when Edge did it, a bit lame on the comeback, and now the story is getting the third wheel on the merry-go-round in a year? The fans are going to dump a great big lincoln log on this one.


  • #58
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users Posts: 84,788 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    Major bump mod please close if need be, but do you think it is time Dolph ditch Vickie and go out on his own as a face?

    Surely ditching Vickie will make him well over with the crowds anyway
    https://forumofgames.com/




  • #59
    x43r0
    Registered Users Posts: 4,277 ✭✭✭x43r0


    I for one can't wait for the inevitable Dolph mega push into the world title scene. The guy looks like a major star for the future. He's got the in ring ability and the mic work to back it up

    Not sure if I'd like him as a face though, just because he plays the cocky heel role so well


  • #60
    grames_bond
    Registered Users Posts: 9,820 ✭✭✭grames_bond


    He could still play that role as face - shawn michaels - esque!!

    he is over with the crowds "let's go ziggler" can be heard at every taping! And at WM axxess he was more popular than Santino!

    Look at his promos on Z!TLIS - he can use a mic really well (or a camera - whatever) when he eventually turns on swagger he will be majorly over! Cut a ripping promo on vickie and BOOM - mega face!


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  • #61
    DEFTLEFTHAND
    Registered Users Posts: 16,500 ✭✭✭✭DEFTLEFTHAND


    I think Vickie still adds to his character positively so I wouldn't ditch her yet. I would get rid of Swagger though.


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