Aircoach Dublin-Cork express

J_Dublin15 · 22-05-2012 9:46am

While people might be rightly critical of the NX coaches and they maybe far from perfect, I do think NX had the right idea. To drive new standards in comfort and accessibility in the coach industry.

And it seems to be working, the Plaxton Elites J_Dublin15 mentions are fully wheelchair accessible and while they have sunken toilets by default, they instead can have rare accessible flower level toilets as an option.

I assume the Stagecoach Plaxtons have this option and therefore meet the NX specs. They may not be Levantes, but it sounds like they match all the goals of the Levantes specs, but perhaps with the Levantes problems fixed

To be honest I'd struggle to agree with any of that. They are not driving new standards in the coach industry, they are merely trying to copy continental standards where well specified Mercedes, Setra and Vanhool coaches rule the roost and are widely regarded as by far the pinnacle of coach design. National Express wanted something like this, only cheaper, and of a design that other operators cannot copy. What they ended up with was a vehicle that has less long term investment value for their operators, poor build quality and mechanical issues that the brand's i've mentioned above simply don't have. There are many passengers who by far prefer the older Scania vehicles over the Levante's.

Whilst I agree that the UK spec coaches has needed to be brought forward in the last ten years, primarily coach travel is not such a big thing as it is in Ireland, due to the fact that a lot more people use trains, which are a lot faster than they are in Ireland. Ex National Express Scania's are operating for Greyhound in the UK, and are far better than the Levante's they replaced (see here) they feature all the features of the Levante's, without some of the draw backs, and plug sockets to boot.

I wouldn't get too hung up about the Plaxton Elite's. They're not an option on National Express contracts, there were a few that came in during 2010 as Stagecoach and some other operators didn't want to take the Levante, NE were very reluctant to allow their use but it's believed there were not a lot of offers to run the contract for the service in questions, so they had to give in or not run the service in the way they would have liked. The only way I can see more Elite's coming in is if NX have no choice, generally the situation has been if one operator doesn't want to have Levante's they'll just not use that operator and will find another operator that does instead. They'll only go to the Elite's if such option is not possible as they really want to avoid using other coach brands at all costs unless there is no other option.

As stated before there is no such thing as meeting the NE specs. The operator gets absolutely no say in this, NX tell them what they need to use to the little detail and if the operator doesn't like this then they won't get the contract. Only in extraordinary situations such as the one's with Stagecoach where there is not much scope for another operator getting a contract with NX be more flexible. And even with the Elite's they demanded the destination display moved to the bottom of the bus.

SandyfordGuy · 22-05-2012 10:03am

Aircoach have a front page advert (full width) on the Irish Examiner this morning.

Something along the lines of;
Cork to Dublin City Centre Non Stop
17 Trips each day for 22 Euro.

bk · 22-05-2012 12:26pm

J_Dublin15 The Scanias look very nice, looks like they have floor level toilet at the back. Nice seats and power sockets, I see they also have nice back of chair mesh. Only pity seems to be no airline style folding table.

I suppose my point is that it would be good to see these sort of high quality continental coaches being introduced in Ireland.

My Ideal intercity coach would have:

- Large accessible, floor level toilet.
- wifi
- Power at seats
- Folding table back of every seat
- Mesh at back of every seat
- Flat seating rather then tiered.
- Reclining leather seats with lots of leg room.

I realise such coaches maybe a little more expensive to buy and run (less seats due to toilets). But I believe it would help greatly to attract customers off rail and onto the much cheaper buses on the intercity direct routes.

Off topic, but I'm surprised the Greyhound brand is being used in the UK. Most people in the UK will never have heard of Greyhound and anyway it has a bad reputation in the US.

However they have a nice website and I like the way they highlight wifi, toilets, reclining seats, etc. The Irish operators should take notice of this.

Great news that Aircoach is advertising it at last, but I hope this is just part of a bigger campaign. More importantly I think they need to specifically target IR and BE passengers (stand outside the stations handing out leaflets, etc.).

foggy_lad · 22-05-2012 12:38pm

bk wrote: »

My Ideal intercity coach would have:

- Large accessible, floor level toilet.
- wifi
- Power at seats
- Folding table back of every seat
- Mesh at back of every seat
- Flat seating rather then tiered.
- Reclining leather seats with lots of leg room.

On the issue of seat back mesh/pockets, the back of seat mesh is usually used by student/waster types to stick their feet into or hold their cans and remains of their McDonalds chicken meal. The same people will stick their old chewing gum anywhere they can find a spot out of sight especially on handles and often at the recliner levers or the seat belt fasteners.

The people who use buses are mostly nice respectful people but there are many who have no respect for anyone elses property and behave like they do at home where they have a dirty old couch, beer fridge and tv in the garage because their parents won't let them in the living room because of their uncivilised and plain dirty habits.

Until such filthy animals are kept off public transport the buses should remain as basic and plain as possible with easy clean materials used wherever possible!

devnull · 22-05-2012 4:16pm

bk wrote: »

- Large accessible, floor level toilet. - If the journey is over two hours, otherwise a waste of space and a LOT of extra maintenance
- wifi - Doable
- Power at seats- Doable, but does require extra maintenance
- Folding table back of every seat - Not viable on scheduled services due to abuse
- Mesh at back of every seat - Not viable on scheduled services due to abuse
- Flat seating rather then tiered.- Should be on every coach. It's actually more difficult to maintain non flat seats.
- Reclining leather seats with lots of leg room. - Agreed

You'd struggle to make a profit with all of the above, the more features you put in the more the coaches cost to maintain, the harder it is to maintain a consistent service, the more time they have to spend off the road, the more people moan when one plug socket on a coach doesn't work or one table doesn't fold up or down properly. Customers who have such negative experience will moan, but the same people would also moan if there was no coach because it is off the road being repaired. The only alternative is to buy dedicated reserve coaches to the same specification that are used as backup for anything that is off the road, this is an expensive process.

You may say how do some of our European cousins and Greyhound for example manage. Well go and look at their timetables and you'll see exactly how they do it. Greyhound and a lot of the operators with all of such features run for less than three quarters of the day, from roughly 7am to 10-11pm in the evening and then they're off the road for eight hours where they can be looked after and have work performed on them. They typically have a hour or two layover at either end at some stage or other and often start and finish close to a depot where minor issues can be addressed between runs. They also have a lighter duties at weekends.

Express coaches in Ireland on the other hand are pretty much running almost 24 hours, some of the Aircoach vehicles for instnace are doing 4-5 trips a day and are out almost 24 hours a day. Such feet would be impossible to provide on higher spec coaches and also provide a consistent service with such features as the vehicles can't be taken off the road for issues such as a broken hinge or one dead light bulb, a dead plug socket or a ripped seat back where the mesh has been ripped to be resolved because they are very much needed in service. One end of the route is often far from a depot where work can be carried out. On the flip side if such minor faults were not rectified, we'd have someone on this board moaning about them.

And I'm sorry to agree with Foggy_Lad a bit but quite frankly the way people treat coaches pretty much here means you'll never see a high spec like you desire on front line schedule services, you may see them on private hires and tours but scheduled services is not a hope because an operator cannot afford to have vehicles off the road constantly so the spec has to be balanced between being passenger friendly, but also being operator friendly in that they can get a good working week out of coaches without having to constantly pull them in for repairs. How efficient a coach is, how it wears up to wear and tear and how many runs you can get out of it a month is one of the most important things for an operator, the less runs you can get, the less reliable the service and the more coaches you need.

Just look at the Aircoach 2004 Setra's and JJ Kavanagh's earlier Setra's. They included seat back tables and these were not just cheap tables, they were well design expensive ones based on proven Mercedes designs that have been used on touring coaches with no problem. Within a few years a number one them were loose, had their seals broken off, hinges snapped, just to name a few things. So because of this none of the operators now ask for them because if a table becomes loose and off it's hinges that is a seat that cannot be properly used and needs to be kept off the road until parts can be fitted or kept on broken and give off a very negative customer perception. Unfortunately in Ireland people do not respect vehicles as well as they do abroad.

There has to be a trade off and a proper specified coach as you described with a decent chassis, a decent body and engine specification is going to cost at the very least €300,000. Add in the extra maintenance that is going to be required, the fact such coaches will spend more time off the road than less spec'd equivalents and therefore you'd need an extra coach or two to cover from this, you end up with a vastly more expensive product to run. So instead what the operators are doing is they're foregoing some of the more maintenance heavy parts, getting a reduction in price, with higher vehicle availability, therefore less vehicles being needed and providing a more consistent standard of service with less expenses leading to lower prices. You really need to look at this from a point of view as operators rather than just passengers. Margins in the business are extremely thin as it is and increasing your cost base isn't going to make that any better.

You seem to believe that the Jonckheere SHV that Aircoach operates and the Scania i6's that Bus Eireann operate and the Volvo 9700's that GoBus operate are cheap. Newflash they are not and are at the top of the middle end of the market and the entry level of the top end of the market. The top end brands will always be Neoplan, Setra and Vanhool. You'll see few being bought and the ones that will, will be below the standard specification because whilst they are fantastic coaches and better than anything any bus operator in Ireland has, using such vehicles on scheduled services just does not work because of the wear and tear the advanced features will get so it's just an expensive mistake. They're very common on tours, and private hires though, as there is less of a demand on a coach to be out there almost all day every day, and in general the clientele of such services are far more respectful.

bk · 22-05-2012 5:21pm

devnull wrote: »

You really need to look at this from a point of view as operators rather than just passengers. Margins in the business are extremely thin as it is and increasing your cost base isn't going to make that any better.

That is a very sad outlook IMO. I understand what you are saying, of course you have to balance customer needs with company needs, but I think your outlook for the market is very limited and depressing.

I'm not saying that all coaches have to be top quality. But I do believe the industry has a perhaps once in a life time opportunity to attract new customers, deliver a new type of high quality service and raise margins.

I'm not talking about the diddly stopping services around the country. Clearly Aircoach don't need toilets, etc. for their Dublin region services which are typically short journeys. But I'm talking about the non stop intercity services.

In the past the only people who used intercity buses were students, after all you would have to be pretty desperate to use the 4h 30m bus to Cork over the 3h train. Therefore the aim of the game was as cheap as possible and often yes these students abused these buses.

But now an opportunity exists for the industry to really up its game and attract a higher class of customers away from the train. The new non stop buses have the train beat on speed, all they have to do is offer a product that is good enough to at least come close to matching the train for comfort.

If they can do that, there is an awful lot of customers to be stolen from the train and they can possibly even charge a little more, thus raising margins.

This is exactly what CityLink and GoBus have done in Galway. They specifically targeted train customers with very high quality coaches, comfortable seats, ac, wifi and toilets on board.

The result, only 15% of journeys to Galway are made by train and 25% are by bus. In Cork it currently stands at 40% train, 10% bus.

There is a market crying out to be taken here.

I think Aircoach needs to up it's game on the Cork route with a similar spec including most importantly toilets. Hopefully GoBus will launch their own similar service soon.

There is a very big opportunity for the industry to change peoples opinions of buses, from something that is only for poor students and is kind of dirty and crappy. To a high quality service, good enough to be used by the vast majority of people.

devnull wrote: »

You seem to believe that the Jonckheere SHV that Aircoach operates and the Scania i6's that Bus Eireann operate and the Volvo 9700's that GoBus operate are cheap.

No, I'm well aware that they are expensive vehicles. That is why I'm disappointed they don't spend the little extra to add toilets, power, etc.

I know the operational points you are making. But I think there is a unique opportunity for things to change for the better here.

We seem to be in agreement on 90% of my requirements, toilets (on journeys 2 hours or over, agreed), wifi, power, flat seating, reclining leather seats. It is seems to be just the folding table and back of seat pouch that we disagree on

I really don't think you have to take a whole coach out just to replace/repair a folding table or mesh and I assume such a repair is quick and easy (compared to engine work, etc.). I'd rather have the possibility that I get on a bus and one or two tables might be broken and I just have to move to a different seat (assuming I want to use the table), versus not having the option of it at all.

BTW by my maths, even with the massive increase in Aircoachs schedule, they have actually only gone from 6 buses to 10 buses on the Cork route. Obviously the 10 buses are doing more journey (4 - 5 versus 2 - 3 previously) but then the journeys are shorter. Impressive jump from 14 services a day to 41 services per day with just 4 extra coaches. I guess they got these extra coaches from the recently reduced Dublin routes.

I assume they have one coach more, so that each of the 10 coaches can be rotated out for routine maintenance.

Tragedy · 22-05-2012 5:39pm

There isn't a unique chance for things to change for the better. This is Ireland, i.e. the country where no-one has any respect for property.

markpb · 22-05-2012 5:39pm

Tragedy wrote: »

There isn't a unique chance for things to change for the better. This is Ireland, i.e. the country where no-one has any respect for property.

Is this like the Dublin Bikes that were doomed to end up in the Liffey or being trashed by scumbags?

bk · 22-05-2012 5:43pm

markpb wrote: »

Is this like the Dublin Bikes that were doomed to end up in the Liffey or being trashed by scumbags?

Or even the Irish Rail trains which seem to have stayed in pretty much good shape. Irish people seem to have this awful opinion, but it isn't true for most people. We can have nice things and for the most part keep them nice.

devnull · 22-05-2012 6:18pm

bk wrote: »

Or even the Irish Rail trains which seem to have stayed in pretty much good shape.

Trains are a totally different kettle of fish for several reasons. All of the below make it far easier operationally to keep the fleet in good condition and less expensive to maintain:
- No Train in Ireland is working all day every day or anywhere near 24 hours
- Off peak there is far less trains than during peak
- At weekends there is a much lower timetable
- In a large number of cases they are funded by the taxpayer
- Irish Rail are subsidised by the taxpayer
- Roads on a coach is far less smooth than a train - more wear and tear
- All power is provided by overhead lines on electric lines

bk wrote: »

That is a very sad outlook IMO. I understand what you are saying, of course you have to balance customer needs with company needs, but I think your outlook for the market is very limited and depressing.

I'm not saying that all coaches have to be top quality. But I do believe the industry has a perhaps once in a life time opportunity to attract new customers, deliver a new type of high quality service and raise margins.

If they can do that, there is an awful lot of customers to be stolen from the train and they can possibly even charge a little more, thus raising margins

In case you hadn't noticed were in a recession and many peoples pockets have been hit, to provide such services the prices of the coach services would have to rise to cover the rising costs. Again you seem to think that it will raise margins bit it won't. Just to cover the operational costs of the vehicles you suggest prices would need to rise. To increase margins they'd have to have a much larger rise and people are already switching modes because of costs. Coach operators are already making losses, they need to strip out costs not raise them.

In the past the only people who used intercity buses were students, after all you would have to be pretty desperate to use the 4h 30m bus to Cork over the 3h train. Therefore the aim of the game was as cheap as possible and often yes these students abused these buses.

I and many others often used the non express Aircoach service which took just over three and a half hours rather than the train, as quite simply it was much cheaper and the fact that Heuston for me is way out of the city center and any convenient area for me. It's also far more flexible.

But now an opportunity exists for the industry to really up its game and attract a higher class of customers away from the train. The new non stop buses have the train beat on speed, all they have to do is offer a product that is good enough to at least come close to matching the train for comfort.

This is exactly what CityLink and GoBus have done in Galway. They specifically targeted train customers with very high quality coaches, comfortable seats, ac, wifi and toilets on board.

As stated Citylink have pulled out of the market directly as they don't see it viable for a large coach operation at the moment. The whole operation is ran by Calinan's of Galway on contract as they didn't believe investing in vehicles themselves would be viable so instead they are getting someone else to take on the risk themselves rather than directly taking the risk themselves. Again this is because of tight margins.

I think Aircoach needs to up it's game on the Cork route with a similar spec including most importantly toilets. Hopefully GoBus will launch their own similar service soon.

As stated, I don't have a problem with the standard Aircoach spec and I prefer it to the likes of GoBus who have issues with regards to their seating layout, poor seating recline and headroom at the back seats, these are a deal breaker for me and much more so than toilets are. The GoBus toilets are the only thing I would say they have that Aircoach do not.

There is a very big opportunity for the industry to change peoples opinions of buses, from something that is only for poor students and is kind of dirty and crappy. To a high quality service, good enough to be used by the vast majority of people.

I hardly think that they would be called crappy, nothing that the major privates operate are crappy that have been bought in the last few years. They are generally well specified to the job they were designed for when they are ordered. If you want to see crappy I can show you far worse coaches that some operators are using than the ones that have been mentioned in this thread. Matthews 2012 Plaxton Panthers are the worst coach in recent times yet they clean up when it comes to rival operators despite the fact they tick none of the boxes you asked for. The reason is because a lot of the potential customers are price sensitive.

No, I'm well aware that they are expensive vehicles. That is why I'm disappointed they don't spend the little extra to add toilets, power, etc.

Which would increase costs and upfront costs, maintenance costs , effeminacy, require extra coaches, decrease margins and require a hefty price increase in an already price sensitive market. In such a difficult trading environment it would be a huge risk to take unless some investor was willint o donate tens of millions up front to make it work. Unfortunately such investors are not around unless Brian Souter or someone like him is going to put 100's of millions of euro into an operation like the Polish based PolskiBus.

I really don't think you have to take a whole coach out just to replace/repair a folding table or mesh and I assume such a repair is quick and easy (compared to engine work, etc.). I'd rather have the possibility that I get on a bus and one or two tables might be broken and I just have to move to a different seat (assuming I want to use the table), versus not having the option of it at all.

How do you expect them to be repaired? By the drivers? They'll need to go into a workshop and be looked at and also need the parts to be in stock (which also cost money), when vehicles have roughly around an hour turn around time and that is if they arrive and depart on time. Also there is the chance that such team will also be working on far more serious issues such as mechanical, which will always take priority. The trouble is when people get extra services they want them every trip, they moan when the service is not consistent, you just need to look around the web to see that.

BTW by my maths, even with the massive increase in Aircoachs schedule, they have actually only gone from 6 buses to 10 buses on the Cork route. Obviously the 10 buses are doing more journey (4 - 5 versus 2 - 3 previously) but then the journeys are shorter. Impressive jump from 14 services a day to 41 services per day with just 4 extra coaches. I guess they got these extra coaches from the recently reduced Dublin routes.

I assume they have one coach more, so that each of the 10 coaches can be rotated out for routine maintenance.

You need to take the Dublin route cuts into context. They were very little 2-3 round trips a day on each route running in morning peak only cut which represented about 5% of the previous timetables being cut. The vehicles I would say are now being worked harder than they ever have they certainly need them to be working hard and earning their money and that is exactly what they are doing. There are no extra coaches, in fact there is one less as one was presumed wrote off due to a fire.

. There was also one vehicle that was presumed to have been wrote off after a fire in Ballinteer . F

kieran4003 · 22-05-2012 7:00pm

bk wrote: »

J_Dublin15 The Scanias look very nice, looks like they have floor level toilet at the back. Nice seats and power sockets, I see they also have nice back of chair mesh. Only pity seems to be no airline style folding table.

I suppose my point is that it would be good to see these sort of high quality continental coaches being introduced in Ireland.

My Ideal intercity coach would have:

- Large accessible, floor level toilet.
- wifi
- Power at seats
- Folding table back of every seat
- Mesh at back of every seat
- Flat seating rather then tiered.
- Reclining leather seats with lots of leg room.

I realise such coaches maybe a little more expensive to buy and run (less seats due to toilets). But I believe it would help greatly to attract customers off rail and onto the much cheaper buses on the intercity direct routes.

Off topic, but I'm surprised the Greyhound brand is being used in the UK. Most people in the UK will never have heard of Greyhound and anyway it has a bad reputation in the US.

However they have a nice website and I like the way they highlight wifi, toilets, reclining seats, etc. The Irish operators should take notice of this.

Great news that Aircoach is advertising it at last, but I hope this is just part of a bigger campaign. More importantly I think they need to specifically target IR and BE passengers (stand outside the stations handing out leaflets, etc.).

The above specification is simply not practical for most coach operators. I agree regarding the wifi, flat seating and powerpoints. However the toilet, folding tables, seat mesh and reclining seats while nice, are not practical. They will not add to profit, they are grand at first but over time they require expenditure to fix and maintain. They are grand for a touring coach with high paying mature adults - but not for an Intercity coach. They are not meant to provide luxury. A coach is about getting people from A - B as a quick and as cheaply as possible. If you want luxury, that is what a train is for. devnull makes some very valid, correct points on this whole issue, so I will not go and repeat it all.

devnull wrote: »

You'd struggle to make a profit with all of the above, the more features you put in the more the coaches cost to maintain, the harder it is to maintain a consistent service, the more time they have to spend off the road, the more people moan when one plug socket on a coach doesn't work or one table doesn't fold up or down properly. Customers who have such negative experience will moan, but the same people would also moan if there was no coach because it is off the road being repaired. The only alternative is to buy dedicated reserve coaches to the same specification that are used as backup for anything that is off the road, this is an expensive process.

You may say how do some of our European cousins and Greyhound for example manage. Well go and look at their timetables and you'll see exactly how they do it. Greyhound and a lot of the operators with all of such features run for less than three quarters of the day, from roughly 7am to 10-11pm in the evening and then they're off the road for eight hours where they can be looked after and have work performed on them. They typically have a hour or two layover at either end at some stage or other and often start and finish close to a depot where minor issues can be addressed between runs. They also have a lighter duties at weekends.

Express coaches in Ireland on the other hand are pretty much running almost 24 hours, some of the Aircoach vehicles for instnace are doing 4-5 trips a day and are out almost 24 hours a day. Such feet would be impossible to provide on higher spec coaches and also provide a consistent service with such features as the vehicles can't be taken off the road for issues such as a broken hinge or one dead light bulb, a dead plug socket or a ripped seat back where the mesh has been ripped to be resolved because they are very much needed in service. One end of the route is often far from a depot where work can be carried out. On the flip side if such minor faults were not rectified, we'd have someone on this board moaning about them.

And I'm sorry to agree with Foggy_Lad a bit but quite frankly the way people treat coaches pretty much here means you'll never see a high spec like you desire on front line schedule services, you may see them on private hires and tours but scheduled services is not a hope because an operator cannot afford to have vehicles off the road constantly so the spec has to be balanced between being passenger friendly, but also being operator friendly in that they can get a good working week out of coaches without having to constantly pull them in for repairs. How efficient a coach is, how it wears up to wear and tear and how many runs you can get out of it a month is one of the most important things for an operator, the less runs you can get, the less reliable the service and the more coaches you need.

Just look at the Aircoach 2004 Setra's and JJ Kavanagh's earlier Setra's. They included seat back tables and these were not just cheap tables, they were well design expensive ones based on proven Mercedes designs that have been used on touring coaches with no problem. Within a few years a number one them were loose, had their seals broken off, hinges snapped, just to name a few things. So because of this none of the operators now ask for them because if a table becomes loose and off it's hinges that is a seat that cannot be properly used and needs to be kept off the road until parts can be fitted or kept on broken and give off a very negative customer perception. Unfortunately in Ireland people do not respect vehicles as well as they do abroad.

There has to be a trade off and a proper specified coach as you described with a decent chassis, a decent body and engine specification is going to cost at the very least €300,000. Add in the extra maintenance that is going to be required, the fact such coaches will spend more time off the road than less spec'd equivalents and therefore you'd need an extra coach or two to cover from this, you end up with a vastly more expensive product to run. So instead what the operators are doing is they're foregoing some of the more maintenance heavy parts, getting a reduction in price, with higher vehicle availability, therefore less vehicles being needed and providing a more consistent standard of service with less expenses leading to lower prices. You really need to look at this from a point of view as operators rather than just passengers. Margins in the business are extremely thin as it is and increasing your cost base isn't going to make that any better.

You seem to believe that the Jonckheere SHV that Aircoach operates and the Scania i6's that Bus Eireann operate and the Volvo 9700's that GoBus operate are cheap. Newflash they are not and are at the top of the middle end of the market and the entry level of the top end of the market. The top end brands will always be Neoplan, Setra and Vanhool. You'll see few being bought and the ones that will, will be below the standard specification because whilst they are fantastic coaches and better than anything any bus operator in Ireland has, using such vehicles on scheduled services just does not work because of the wear and tear the advanced features will get so it's just an expensive mistake. They're very common on tours, and private hires though, as there is less of a demand on a coach to be out there almost all day every day, and in general the clientele of such services are far more respectful.

Agree 100% with all of that devnull, you have a good knowledge of the industry. Just to point out, the new Bus Eireann Irizar i6 vehicles cost about 418,000 each. They would be fairly near the top, but as you point out Neoplan, Setra & Vanhool would be the best. However Vanhool is impractical for most operators, they are very expensive and the lead times to build them are too long. A major intercity operator could not wait that long and even then Vanhool can not meet deadlines and run late. The Irizar body has been a huge success for Bus Eireann, It is well built, classy and practical. The Setra brand is also very good.

double jeopardy · 22-05-2012 10:38pm

Spotted brand new Volvo B12 Caetano with Airocach today at Ringsend.Wasnt in service but in white with aircoach branding on sides.Coach is un used by looks of it.Probably on trial for Cork/Dublin or Belfast or maybe its one of the many that were reported to be on the way since last march...
Rumour has it now that B Kavanaghs are going operating Cork/Dublin on behalf of Bus Eireann.Drivers are being recruited in Dublin anyway at moment for such service.....
Who knows yet we may hav a non stop to Cork every 15min the way things are going and who ever has the deepest pockets will come out winners...:p

SandyfordGuy · 22-05-2012 11:33pm

Whatever you think you sure I can assure you it was not the case because Caetano do not build any new coaches on the open market any more as part of their deal with National Express as has been explained by other posters. Volvo UK have a number of ex National Express vehicles in stock which were traded in for brand new vehicles.

They're being loaned out to operators as cover for vehicles that have to have heavy maintenance work under warranty. The fact they're in white pretty much gives this away. Aircoach have had several vehicle's in white with logos over the years, including a Panther in 2008, a Jonckheere in 2009 and a Panther again in 2011. All of which were temporary.

The Bernard Kavanagh rumour wouldn't exactly surprise me. A large number of the GoBus coaches are leased from Bernard Kavanagh and GoBus have linked up with Bus Eireann in the past. In addition Bernard Kavanagh previously ran the Belfast to Dublin Express service for Bus Eireann and have also done some other work for Bus Eireann recently as well.

However many of the privates in the industry would not be particularly happy to see a link up between Bus Eireann with one or two private operators to take on another private operator as it wouldn't be in the interests of the industry for the future with regards to greater market chances for the independent operators. In addition some may also feel that Bus Eireann is merely using the operator as they cannot get their own license and will drop them as soon as possible if that situation changes.

parsi · 23-05-2012 12:43am

foggy_lad wrote: »

On the issue of seat back mesh/pockets, the back of seat mesh is usually used by student/waster types to stick their feet into or hold their cans and remains of their McDonalds chicken meal. The same people will stick their old chewing gum anywhere they can find a spot out of sight especially on handles and often at the recliner levers or the seat belt fasteners.

The people who use buses are mostly nice respectful people but there are many who have no respect for anyone elses property and behave like they do at home where they have a dirty old couch, beer fridge and tv in the garage because their parents won't let them in the living room because of their uncivilised and plain dirty habits.

Until such filthy animals are kept off public transport the buses should remain as basic and plain as possible with easy clean materials used wherever possible!

Contrary to your anecdotal views , anecdotally I've found that the folk who are most likely to disrespectfully treat public transport vehicles are those who receive free travel from the state - the so-called "golden tickets". Seems to me that they think their golden-ticket also includes immunity from general public manners.

If the privates advertised the services that were non-stop and only available to full-fare customers (maybe with a surcharge for golden ticket holders) then these would be popular.

end of the road · 23-05-2012 1:29am

parsi wrote: »

Contrary to your anecdotal views , anecdotally I've found that the folk who are most likely to disrespectfully treat public transport vehicles are those who receive free travel from the state - the so-called "golden tickets". Seems to me that they think their golden-ticket also includes immunity from general public manners.

very simple way to deal with such filth. if their caught damaging a vehicle revoke their free travel indefinitely. its the (oh my child has ADHD) who is infact a bold child brigade who would do such damage. only people with a genuine disability or who are elderly and have contributed to the country should get free travel anyway, the pass should be equiped with photo ID, and only those who actually need someone to accompany them be entitled to a companion pass but the person accompanying them would only be entitled to a discount and not free travel.

double jeopardy · 23-05-2012 9:27am

SandyfordGuy wrote: »

Whatever you think you sure I can assure you it was not the case because Caetano do not build any new coaches on the open market any more as part of their deal with National Express as has been explained by other posters. Volvo UK have a number of ex National Express vehicles in stock which were traded in for brand new vehicles.

They're being loaned out to operators as cover for vehicles that have to have heavy maintenance work under warranty. The fact they're in white pretty much gives this away. Aircoach have had several vehicle's in white with logos over the years, including a Panther in 2008, a Jonckheere in 2009 and a Panther again in 2011. All of which were temporary.

The Bernard Kavanagh rumour wouldn't exactly surprise me. A large number of the GoBus coaches are leased from Bernard Kavanagh and GoBus have linked up with Bus Eireann in the past. In addition Bernard Kavanagh previously ran the Belfast to Dublin Express service for Bus Eireann and have also done some other work for Bus Eireann recently as well.

However many of the privates in the industry would not be particularly happy to see a link up between Bus Eireann with one or two private operators to take on another private operator as it wouldn't be in the interests of the industry for the future with regards to greater market chances for the independent operators. In addition some may also feel that Bus Eireann is merely using the operator as they cannot get their own license and will drop them as soon as possible if that situation changes.

Who are you to try tell me what i saw with my own eyes is incorrect??
It was a caetano ant FYI even though you would claim to know it all,it is one of 33 such vehicles that First Group has purchased for National Express.dont be so quick to over rule other peoples observations

J_Dublin15 · 23-05-2012 10:12am

First Cymru which is the last operator in the group to run National Express contracts, has announced it will not be tendering for renewals. Edwards is the company which will be taking over such contracts, mentioned in the trade press.

You could have seen a Levante, but it wouldn't be a new one as because as has been explained on these forums they can only be bought in conjunction with a NE service contract which also ties the operator into operate the coaches on nothing but NE services until such service contract expires.

With that in mind it would be impossible for First to use a new Levante bought for NE work elsewhere and in any case they are not tendering for new NE work anyway.

double jeopardy · 23-05-2012 2:09pm

J_Dublin15 wrote: »

First Cymru which is the last operator in the group to run National Express contracts, has announced it will not be tendering for renewals. Edwards is the company which will be taking over such contracts, mentioned in the trade press.

You could have seen a Levante, but it wouldn't be a new one as because as has been explained on these forums they can only be bought in conjunction with a NE service contract which also ties the operator into operate the coaches on nothing but NE services until such service contract expires.

With that in mind it would be impossible for First to use a new Levante bought for NE work elsewhere and in any case they are not tendering for new NE work anyway.

How many more times do I have to type this?? It was a caetano/Levante and IT WAS BRAND SPANKING NEW.vOLVO B 12OR B13........
iL EVEN GET A PIC FIRST CHANCE I GET TO SOOTHE YERE DISBELIEF>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

joegriffinjnr · 23-05-2012 9:11pm

Its either a Scania based Levante or a volvo based Levante. Possibly leased. Its NOT new. Its awaiting irish plates. Aircoach are supposed to be getting some new additions to the fleet for the Belfast service which is rumoured to be starting back up. The intresting news is these coaches will have toilets.

bk · 23-05-2012 9:21pm

joegriffinjnr wrote: »

Its either a Scania based Levante or a volvo based Levante. Possibly leased. Its NOT new. Its awaiting irish plates. Aircoach are supposed to be getting some new additions to the fleet for the Belfast service which is rumoured to be starting back up. The intresting news is these coaches will have toilets.

It would be strange to use coaches with toilets on the shorter Belfast and not on the longer Cork route!!

I assume they feel they face more competition on the Belfast route and have to offer something extra. So far they face no direct competition on the Cork route.

joegriffinjnr · 23-05-2012 9:36pm

I would say they might be tried on the Cork route, possibly spread around.

double jeopardy · 23-05-2012 11:17pm

Pity I couldnt take bets lads,id have a nice holiday out of some of ye...
A coach bearing 12 D reg is brand new ya?
A coach bearing Volvo badge is a Volvo ya?
A coach bearing Aircoach livery is Aircoach ya?

It was around Dalkey today also....

Tragedy · 24-05-2012 5:51pm

markpb wrote: »

Is this like the Dublin Bikes that were doomed to end up in the Liffey or being trashed by scumbags?

I can't particularly imagine someone breaking parts of the bike of scrawling graffiti over it as they ride it. Nice comparison though, as they have pretty much nothing in common. Why not compare it to DB(buses in pretty poor condition) or BE? Even IR isn't immune to graffiti and random minor damage.

Bored Irish teenagers/kids do what bored Irish teenagers/kids do; carve inane messages into things, try pull things apart, and generally be a nuisance on public transport.

Do prattle on about Dublin Bikes though.

markpb · 24-05-2012 5:59pm

Tragedy wrote: »

I can't particularly imagine someone breaking parts of the bike of scrawling graffiti over it as they ride it. Nice comparison though, as they have pretty much nothing in common. Why not compare it to DB(buses in pretty poor condition) or BE? Even IR isn't immune to graffiti and random minor damage.

Bored Irish teenagers/kids do what bored Irish teenagers/kids do; carve inane messages into things, try pull things apart, and generally be a nuisance on public transport.

Do prattle on about Dublin Bikes though.

Charming post. Maybe you have a short term memory but when Dublin Bikes was first mentioned the papers and this forum were awash with the usual hand wringing naysayers claiming it would never work because nackers would dump them in the river, kick the wheels in while they were at the stands and generally claim that the entire system was a waste of time and money because Irish people are sub-human.

The same was said when the Luas was planned to go through Rialto, Drimnagh and Tallagh. The trams would be destroyed, bricked, graffitted, etc, etc, and would end up being cancelled.

Now, several years later here we are, all the bikes are intact, the trams are a roaring success, the doom and gloom crowd were wrong but they've moved on to claiming that expensive buses are a waste of time because people will damage them. And around we go on the merryground that is "it'll never work in Ireland".

LXFlyer · 24-05-2012 6:19pm

Mark unless you're living in a cloud, you would have to accept that there is a vandalism issue on the buses - etching, graffiti, burning etc.

patrickbrophy18 · 24-05-2012 6:37pm

double jeopardy wrote: »

Who are you to try tell me what i saw with my own eyes is incorrect??
It was a caetano ant FYI even though you would claim to know it all,it is one of 33 such vehicles that First Group has purchased for National Express.dont be so quick to over rule other peoples observations

Are these Caetano's bi-axle or tri-axle?

dardhal · 24-05-2012 8:53pm

Just a small piece of "information" after having used the service to and back from Cork a few times last week. First, it seems stopping at Urlingford is something you can foresee, it seems to happen randomly, even if the driver apparently hasn't been asked to stop by anyone (as it happened to me on one of my trips back from Cork). It seems more likely to happen in the Cork to Dublin route, though.

Other thing to notice is, drivers seem to have very little consideration to passengers at times. It is absolutely out of order that in a route from Dublin to Cork departing at 1am, they keep the TV screen on and the radio at a loud volume. Sure, if I weren't so shy I would have happily told the driver to turn it down, but there are certain things people should realize themselves. Maybe the driver didn't want to fall sleep, as it seemed to be the case for some time close to arriving in Cork.

And that links with the thing I have always liked the least about traveling on a bus, which is you sometimes can feel "uncomfortable" when some coach drivers are at the wheel. I have never driven a coach, so my opinion could be way wrong, but at times it feels like drivers are either too "aggressive", a bit sleepy, don't care a bit about the passengers, or simply more tired / sleepy than they should. But it may be that the road surface is not in perfect condition, they have to dodge bumps all along the M7/M8 or crosswinds make them correct the coach path often and that translates into shaking passengers.

To finish this "brief" comment, it was a whole new experience to arrive in Cork at 03.50 AM with nothing to do until 07.15 AM or so when I could finally take another bus to my final destination. Cork bus station doesn't open until 06.00 AM, and the only thing that seems to be open at those times of the day (or night) is the McDonald's (and probably the Burguer King) at St. Patrick's Street, so if you like me have to arrive in Cork so early in the morning (because the service that arrives at 10.00 AM is too late), go straight there, have a coffee or whatever, and be safe, warm and comfortable. I didn't do it and had the chance to walk the city for a couple of hours, but there are areas and people I would try to avoid. But to be honest, I saw more "dangerous" people in plain daylight than I saw at 5AM. After all, even them have to take some sleep from time to time.

joegriffinjnr · 24-05-2012 10:18pm

double jeopardy wrote: »

Pity I couldnt take bets lads,id have a nice holiday out of some of ye...

Double, Im sorry, it appears your right. Im the first to put my hands up when Im wrong. Reg is 12 D 25433 and she appears to be a Levante.

Sorry Bud. :cool:

double jeopardy · 24-05-2012 10:55pm

joegriffinjnr wrote: »

Double, Im sorry, it appears your right. Im the first to put my hands up when Im wrong. Reg is 12 D 25433 and she appears to be a Levante.

Sorry Bud. :cool:

Not a bother joegriffinjnr....Pity I didt have the bet ha ha..
Im not sure what its purpose is here but I believe it will be trialled on Belfast and on Cork and will be around for a while.It has the wayfarer in and due for PSV also..

Corholio · 25-05-2012 2:36am

dardhal wrote: »

Just a small piece of "information" after having used the service to and back from Cork a few times last week. First, it seems stopping at Urlingford is something you can foresee, it seems to happen randomly, even if the driver apparently hasn't been asked to stop by anyone (as it happened to me on one of my trips back from Cork). It seems more likely to happen in the Cork to Dublin route, though.

Other thing to notice is, drivers seem to have very little consideration to passengers at times. It is absolutely out of order that in a route from Dublin to Cork departing at 1am, they keep the TV screen on and the radio at a loud volume. Sure, if I weren't so shy I would have happily told the driver to turn it down, but there are certain things people should realize themselves. Maybe the driver didn't want to fall sleep, as it seemed to be the case for some time close to arriving in Cork.

And that links with the thing I have always liked the least about traveling on a bus, which is you sometimes can feel "uncomfortable" when some coach drivers are at the wheel. I have never driven a coach, so my opinion could be way wrong, but at times it feels like drivers are either too "aggressive", a bit sleepy, don't care a bit about the passengers, or simply more tired / sleepy than they should. But it may be that the road surface is not in perfect condition, they have to dodge bumps all along the M7/M8 or crosswinds make them correct the coach path often and that translates into shaking passengers.

To finish this "brief" comment, it was a whole new experience to arrive in Cork at 03.50 AM with nothing to do until 07.15 AM or so when I could finally take another bus to my final destination. Cork bus station doesn't open until 06.00 AM, and the only thing that seems to be open at those times of the day (or night) is the McDonald's (and probably the Burguer King) at St. Patrick's Street, so if you like me have to arrive in Cork so early in the morning (because the service that arrives at 10.00 AM is too late), go straight there, have a coffee or whatever, and be safe, warm and comfortable. I didn't do it and had the chance to walk the city for a couple of hours, but there are areas and people I would try to avoid. But to be honest, I saw more "dangerous" people in plain daylight than I saw at 5AM. After all, even them have to take some sleep from time to time.

Agree on the stopping at Urlingford thing. I wouldn't mind stopping if it stopped all the time and you know about it, but stopping randomly is awkward. I missed a connecting bus in Cork by 4 min, the bus having stopped in Urlingford on the way down.

Also just a little tip, if your ever in Cork that early in the morning 1-5am etc, there's a 24 hour internet place a few doors down from the McDonald's past Brown Thomas. Very handy place.

Aircoach Dublin-Cork express

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