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"N6 Galway City Transport Project"

  • 14-01-2015 10:35am
    #1
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    New thread for this "new" project --

    http://www.n6galwaycity.ie


«134567

Comments

  • #2
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,820 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    intelligent decision.

    if the problem is
    a ) congestion for a few hours in the morning and evening caused by folks using their car to get cross town to work
    and
    b) no viable alternative to using the car to get across town to work, which is arguably the cause of problem (a) in the first place
    then.....
    providing or at least investigating a viable alternative (by public transport/ busways or whatever) to get people across town to work at peak times quickly and comfortably and reducing the cars on the currrent by pass is surely as reasonable an answer to the problems as speeding up the car commute by building a 300million euro outer by pass.


  • #3
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    if the problem is
    a ) congestion for a few hours in the morning and evening caused by folks using their car to get cross town to work
    and
    b) no viable alternative to using the car to get across town to work, which is arguably the cause of problem (a) in the first place
    then.....
    providing or at least investigating a viable alternative (by public transport/ busways or whatever) to get people across town to work at peak times quickly and comfortably and reducing the cars on the currrent by pass is surely as reasonable an answer to the problems as speeding up the car commute by building a 300million euro outer by pass.


    According to documentation made available at the "N6 Galway City Outer Bypass Project Office" last year, and now accessible somewhere on the "N6 Galway City Transport Project" website, there are a number of issues "worthy of further study":
    Initial examination of the transportation issues in Galway City and environs has shown that the following are worthy of further study and analysis:
    • Congestion on routes in the city; -
    • Journey time unreliability due to uncertain quantum of delay; -
    • Journey time variability throughout the day; -
    • Peak hour traffic delays; -
    • By-passable traffic is in conflict with internal traffic; -
    • Inadequate transport links to access markets within the city; -
    • Inadequate transport connections from Galway onwards to Connemara, and -
    • Lack of accessibility to the Western Region as a whole.

    When the old GCOB scheme was still on the table, it was claimed that the bypass was needed as a bypass. Perhaps three items on the above list are compatible with that view.

    However, it needs to be asked what is creating congestion on routes in the city, and why (as well as which) internal traffic conflicts with "by-passable traffic".

    One major cause of such congestion is school traffic, According to the City Council there is a 25-33% increase in traffic on certain routes in the city in the morning during the school term. When the schools are off, some of the main routes, normally car-clogged, are totally free-flowing. And the Council's response to this recurring phenomenon? A comprehensive School Travel Plan for the city? No, just the predictable pleading in the local press in advance of the usual back-to-school mayhem. "Won't somebody please do something?" they shriek helplessly.

    Meanwhile, the facade slips now and again, and we catch a glimpse of what may well be the real agenda. Last October, a representative of Galway Chamber of Commerce, speaking on Galway Bay FM, described efforts to develop and promote demand management measures (public transport, junction redesign, reallocation of space to walking and cycling, school travel plans etc), though positive, as mere "tinkering". The GBFM interviewer's perspective was that Galway Chamber "need the bodies to come in" (ie want more people to be able to drive into the city) and "the infrastructure is not there to bring the bodies in" (ie the existing roads are clogged with cars, so more roads are needed). Galway Bay FM is a prominent member organisation of Galway Chamber of Commerce.

    According to this view, the best way to proceed is the construction of a bypass, so that cross-town and through traffic can be removed in order to make room for bringing more "bodies" into the city in cars, in order to keep the tills ringing.


  • #4
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    For 300million, Galway could have a lovely Bus Rapid transit system along 4 corridors. The bypass would be a bit of a waste my comparison and wouldn't be nearly as useful.


  • #5
    Banjoxed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Banjoxed


    cgcsb wrote: »
    For 300million, Galway could have a lovely Bus Rapid transit system along 4 corridors. The bypass would be a bit of a waste my comparison and wouldn't be nearly as useful.

    But those who benefit from scattershot housing and consequent road building and car sales will not be happy bunnies. Watch the PR machines crank into action to breath foul air over that concept.


  • #6
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    cgcsb wrote: »
    For 300million, Galway could have a lovely Bus Rapid transit system along 4 corridors. The bypass would be a bit of a waste my comparison and wouldn't be nearly as useful.

    BRT will not solve the fact that all the east-west city-traffic is being funnelled through this area.
    antoobrien wrote: »
    181739.jpg


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  • #7
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    BRT will not solve the fact that all the east-west city-traffic is being funnelled through this area.


    Ah, the auld triangle. :)

    Is it clogged up with traffic during the peak tourism months, by any chance?

    As it is during, say, September to December and January to June?


  • #8
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Ah, the auld triangle. :)

    Is it clogged up with traffic during the peak tourism months, by any chance?

    As it is during, say, September to December and January to June?

    Yup.


  • #9
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Yup.


    Really?

    So AADTs -- and traffic delays -- are the same throughout the summer as when the schools are off?

    Any source for that?


  • #10
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Really?

    So AADTs -- and traffic delays -- are the same throughout the summer as when the schools are off?

    Any source for that?

    Mark I human eyeball.


  • #11
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Mark I human eyeball.



    Yup, so much better than data.


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  • #12
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    providing or at least investigating a viable alternative (by public transport/ busways or whatever) to get people across town to work at peak times quickly and comfortably and reducing the cars on the currrent by pass

    What bypass? There's no way for traffic to avoid the centre of Galway.

    260808.jpg


  • #13
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    This thread does read like many others about the GCOB scheme. Regarding alternatives, can anybody tell me what minor infrastructural works can be undertaken? Can a bridge or relief road be built here and there? Regarding schools and car-driving habits, the data referred to here suggests that a quarter to third reduction in motorised traffic results in congestion almost vanishing. I'm guessing that Galway has a higher proportion of car usership than other Irish cities but how much of an improvement can be expected in the near future?

    Even though bad planning seems to be a factor, the congestion problems in Galway seem to be particularly awful for a city of its size. Even if big ticket road projects in Galway are opposed by some, is it fair to do so when clearly the vast majority of elected representatives have made it clear they would support the GCOB?

    There are situations like the M1 and proposed M7 widening to 6 from 4 lane roads where I wonder if better public transport could be supplied instead of supplying wider motorways to be filler by commuters. But there is simply *nowhere* and no way to go from southern Connemara and the Spiddal Road to get to the east except over the Quincentennial (sp?) Bridge or Galway city centre. And that "bypass" often surrounded by residential areas and comes within 1km of Galway's most historic and cultural area. It was clearly poorly thought out and done on the cheap where at least Ray Burke's little Swords Bypass provided some pedestrian overpasses although for a strategic route with primarily through-way traffic. The Swords Pavillion was only built when the M1 Swords was near opening.

    It might or might not need a €300M scheme but Galway being such a chokepoint for regional traffic of all types is a big problem.

    One other thing, are upgrades possible to the Seamus Quirke road that can make it much safer for pedestrians and cyclists and also cater for truck and tractor usage? All while allowing for efficient bus transport that will be superior to other Irish cities?

    I don't have any very strong opinions on the "right outcome", the above is meant to promote discussion not a battle!


  • #14
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    antoobrien wrote: »
    BRT will not solve the fact that all the east-west city-traffic is being funnelled through this area.

    No but a reliable BRT system complimented by park and ride would reduce all traffic in the City.


  • #15
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    lucernarian wrote: »
    1.This thread does read like many others about the GCOB scheme.

    2. Regarding schools and car-driving habits, the data referred to here suggests that a quarter to third reduction in motorised traffic results in congestion almost vanishing.

    3. Even though bad planning seems to be a factor, the congestion problems in Galway seem to be particularly awful for a city of its size. Even if big ticket road projects in Galway are opposed by some, is it fair to do so when clearly the vast majority of elected representatives have made it clear they would support the GCOB?

    4. But there is simply *nowhere* and no way to go from southern Connemara and the Spiddal Road to get to the east except over the Quincentennial (sp?) Bridge or Galway city centre.

    5. It might or might not need a €300M scheme but Galway being such a chokepoint for regional traffic of all types is a big problem.


    1. Yes, indeed. The same arguments go round in circles until they get stuck, like traffic on one of Galway's tribal roundabouts.

    2. The effect on traffic congestion when the schools are off is well-recognised, but imo there is major denial as to its implications. Bypass enthusiasts simply do not want to know, or attempt to dispute what we can see with our own Mark I eyeballs. This quote neatly describes the phenomenon:
    I love the summer - no traffic jams to work.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055368765

    TBH I don't know what the actual AADTs are, but it's the City Council itself that states the 25-33% figure. And yet, are you aware of any concerted attempt anywhere in the city over the past 20 years (or since the supposedly significant year of 1986) to produce a comprehensive school travel plan for a single school, never mind for a Local Area or the entire city? If you do, please let me know.

    3. A majority of elected representatives supported the original bypass as proposed, and the ECJ ruling showed definitively that they were all wrong. For decades a majority of voters in this "republic" voted for a certain party and their policies. Look where that got us.

    4. The "N6 Galway City Transport Project" claims that "by-passable traffic is in conflict with internal traffic". What is the nature and extent of that internal traffic? Where is the "by-passable" traffic heading, and why? What is the nature and extent of traffic coming in along the Spiddal/Barna Road? What studies, making use of technologies such as ANPR, have been carried out? And why is there still no Park & Ride on the west side of the city (or anywhere, come to think of it)? Why is there no congestion charge or other Demand Management mechanism in place? Why has ribbon development and "one-off" building (aka measles development) not been controlled?

    5. I had direct experience of "chokepoints" this morning, because, suffering a bout of laziness after a late start following poor sleep due to minor illness last night, I decided to use the car for the 3 km school run. As I turned the corner out of the estate (Galway-style impermeable cul-de-sac) I saw that the main road was clogged with stationary cars. I knew from experience that the tailback was at least 1.3 km long, and that the kids would be late for school if I stayed in line. So I did a u-turn and took another route. As I did so, I saw a line of traffic, slow but moving steadily, extending back at least another kilometre. On my alternative route I encountered another line of slow-moving traffic, extending a kilometre or so to a roundabout, where the traffic became free-flowing. I got to school on time.

    My guess is that if you interviewed every single driver in each queue of cars, a majority would identify the lack of a bypass as the cause of the traffic congestion and the provision of a bypass as the solution. According to this perspective, traffic is other people, and the way to deal with "chokepoints" is to create more road space for cars.


  • #16
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    cgcsb wrote: »
    No but a reliable BRT system complimented by park and ride would reduce all traffic in the City.


    Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that there is no permanent Park & Ride. Certainly there is none on the west side of the city.

    Public transport, including high-capacity and efficient services such as BRT, have been sorely (I would say deliberately) ignored for decades. With regard to ordinary local bus services, I heard recently that the residents of one large housing estate have been waiting 30 years for a bus shelter. It can take years to propose, agree, plan, design and construct a simple bus shelter.

    Every day I pass by a shelterless bus stop where school-children have to stand in cold wet weather, while those doing the pick-up by car park unhindered on the footpath beside them, with the engine running and the heater on. To me these sights, replicated all over the city and being remedied in a piecemeal fashion at a glacial pace, are emblematic of the way that people who don't travel by car are treated like second-class citizens.


  • #17
    antoobrien
    Registered Users Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    cgcsb wrote: »
    No but a reliable BRT system complimented by park and ride would reduce all traffic in the City.

    P&R has been trialled in Galway for general commuting and failed spectacularly.

    The only realistic P&R is the one run up to christmas - to get shoppers in that won't come to Galway otherwise.


  • #18
    lucernarian
    Registered Users Posts: 9,235 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    1. Yes, indeed. The same arguments go round in circles until they get stuck, like traffic on one of Galway's tribal roundabouts.

    2. The effect on traffic congestion when the schools are off is well-recognised, but imo there is major denial as to its implications. Bypass enthusiasts simply do not want to know, or attempt to dispute what we can see with our own Mark I eyeballs. This quote neatly describes the phenomenon:



    TBH I don't know what the actual AADTs are, but it's the City Council itself that states the 25-33% figure. And yet, are you aware of any concerted attempt anywhere in the city over the past 20 years (or since the supposedly significant year of 1986) to produce a comprehensive school travel plan for a single school, never mind for a Local Area or the entire city? If you do, please let me know.

    3. A majority of elected representatives supported the original bypass as proposed, and the ECJ ruling showed definitively that they were all wrong. For decades a majority of voters in this "republic" voted for a certain party and their policies. Look where that got us.

    4. The "N6 Galway City Transport Project" claims that "by-passable traffic is in conflict with internal traffic". What is the nature and extent of that internal traffic? Where is the "by-passable" traffic heading, and why? What is the nature and extent of traffic coming in along the Spiddal/Barna Road? What studies, making use of technologies such as ANPR, have been carried out? And why is there still no Park & Ride on the west side of the city (or anywhere, come to think of it)? Why is there no congestion charge or other Demand Management mechanism in place? Why has ribbon development and "one-off" building (aka measles development) not been controlled?

    5. I had direct experience of "chokepoints" this morning, because, suffering a bout of laziness after a late start following poor sleep due to minor illness last night, I decided to use the car for the 3 km school run. As I turned the corner out of the estate (Galway-style impermeable cul-de-sac) I saw that the main road was clogged with stationary cars. I knew from experience that the tailback was at least 1.3 km long, and that the kids would be late for school if I stayed in line. So I did a u-turn and took another route. As I did so, I saw a line of traffic, slow but moving steadily, extending back at least another kilometre. On my alternative route I encountered another line of slow-moving traffic, extending a kilometre or so to a roundabout, where the traffic became free-flowing. I got to school on time.

    My guess is that if you interviewed every single driver in each queue of cars, a majority would identify the lack of a bypass as the cause of the traffic congestion and the provision of a bypass as the solution. According to this perspective, traffic is other people, and the way to deal with "chokepoints" is to create more road space for cars.
    I don't know what possessed you to number what are in some cases random sentences. I used paragraphs to distinguish different discussion points I raised. I asked specific questions and it's up to you or anyone else to answer but there's no point in trying to address a specific poster by almost having a conversation with yourself by taking bits and pieces from my own reply.

    I do apologise for being combative but it's frustrating when I ask 4 fairly straightforward questions and I see one answer and snippets of different points being addressed with anecdotes and more questions. FWIW I accept your point concerning elected representatives but it is a more empirical method of assessing public support for the project directly.

    I await what responses you have to my actual questions with interest but I also want to highlight "point" 4. Is what I said a matter of truth or not? What have traffic studies, ANPR, Park and Rides and ribbon development got to do with if there is a non-city-centre route available for land-based modes of transport? I'm not from Galway and there are other people better qualified to deal with AADTs. The map by antoobrien seems to confirm the point and I'm looking for an alternative view. I can take it for granted that various types of traffic do use the national routes and the Spiddal Road without wanting to stop in Galway as I've made such journeys in cars. I don't see why all or even some of those questions need to be answered to specify what needs to be done to make "by-passable" traffic have safer (and quicker if possible) journeys. Questions about the nature and extent of that traffic do need to be answered to determine the correct measures. But you say that the Transport Project claims that bypassable traffic is in conflict with internal traffic but isn't that a little perjorative? I see that as a factual assertion owing to the map that antoobrien showed, highlighting an absence of a safely engineered route for HGV, truck, tractor and bus traffic that might not be stopping in Galway. In any other town and city I know in Ireland, weight limits exist to protect road surfaces, pedestrians and other road users from the direct impacts of these vehicles and also the noise and environmental pollution associated with them. But that doesn't seem to be an option here due to there being no route that avoids the urban core in the first place!

    Again, it may not need a €300 million bypass but what do posters here feel is the correct way to solve this specific issue?

    I made similar points before about the N2 Slane Bypass and while most here accept it's completely unfit for modern traffic, some argued that alternative routes do exist (e.g. M1 Drogheda) and a weight limit/HGV ban should be used. In the case of Galway, what's the alternative route?


  • #19
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that there is no permanent Park & Ride. Certainly there is none on the west side of the city.

    Not now, but we were speaking hypothetically.
    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Public transport, including high-capacity and efficient services such as BRT, have been sorely (I would say deliberately) ignored for decades. With regard to ordinary local bus services, I heard recently that the residents of one large housing estate have been waiting 30 years for a bus shelter. It can take years to propose, agree, plan, design and construct a simple bus shelter.

    Every day I pass by a shelterless bus stop where school-children have to stand in cold wet weather, while those doing the pick-up by car park unhindered on the footpath beside them, with the engine running and the heater on. To me these sights, replicated all over the city and being remedied in a piecemeal fashion at a glacial pace, are emblematic of the way that people who don't travel by car are treated like second-class citizens.

    Completely agree. Fortunately there is some change in the winds. The NTA has taken responsibility for the bike scheme (Despite efforts by GCC to sabotage it) and bus services. Clearly Galway City, and County Councils are not to be trusted with transport planning. The City transport project will be managed quietly and effectively from an office in Dublin far from the parish pump.


  • #20
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    antoobrien wrote: »
    P&R has been trialled in Galway for general commuting and failed spectacularly.

    The only realistic P&R is the one run up to christmas - to get shoppers in that won't come to Galway otherwise.

    That's because park and ride, as a stand alone measure, is doomed to failure in virtually every small City in the world. A strategy needs to be in place that does two things
    1)make public transport much more convenient
    2) making driving into the City Centre much less convenient

    It doesn't do any good to offer park and ride when there is piss cheap parking in the City Centre.


  • #21
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    cgcsb wrote: »
    That's because park and ride, as a stand alone measure, is doomed to failure in virtually every small City in the world. A strategy needs to be in place that does two things
    1)make public transport much more convenient
    2) making driving into the City Centre much less convenient

    It doesn't do any good to offer park and ride when there is piss cheap parking in the City Centre.
    I don't agree with item number 2.

    It's clutching at straws to say the least. If that is our solution to Galway's transport issues, we will never see an improvement. Just to point out also that making driving and parking more expensive simply discourages people on lower incomes. It makes life easier for those who can well afford it as they now have less competition. In turn, they will probably drive more frequently so you will see no reduction overall.

    Item number 1 is spot on. Make it so convenient and seamless to use so that it can compete with other modes of transport on its own merits.

    There was a thread previously on the Galway City board about the lack of buses over the Quincentenary Bridge. The absolute bottom line is that they have no reason whatsoever to not trial it. If they have resources (buses and subsidy) to do a Christmas P&R, they have the resources to try a West-East commuter route over the QB avoiding the City Centre.


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  • #22
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that there is no permanent Park & Ride. Certainly there is none on the west side of the city.

    Public transport, including high-capacity and efficient services such as BRT, have been sorely (I would say deliberately) ignored for decades. With regard to ordinary local bus services, I heard recently that the residents of one large housing estate have been waiting 30 years for a bus shelter. It can take years to propose, agree, plan, design and construct a simple bus shelter.

    Every day I pass by a shelterless bus stop where school-children have to stand in cold wet weather, while those doing the pick-up by car park unhindered on the footpath beside them, with the engine running and the heater on. To me these sights, replicated all over the city and being remedied in a piecemeal fashion at a glacial pace, are emblematic of the way that people who don't travel by car are treated like second-class citizens.

    I suggest you write to the NTA and/or local councillor asking if a bus shelter can be insalled and a proper pick up / drop off area be built so illegal parking ceases. It would be good if everyone could be catered for. There is no need for anyone to be treated like second class citizens.


  • #23
    KevR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,110 ✭✭✭KevR


    I always find it odd that funding can be found for rural greenways which will be largely low traffic tourist routes, for example the Galway - Moycullen greenway.

    All the while there never seems to be any money to spend on hectic urban commuter routes.

    Iwannahurl made a point about new bus shelters being introduced at a snails pace, I presume this is due to limited funding..


  • #24
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,541 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Bus shelters are erected by Adshel under contract to Bus Eireann.

    Get in touch with Bus Eireann and see what they can do.


  • #25
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    cgcsb wrote: »

    It doesn't do any good to offer park and ride when there is piss cheap parking in the City Centre.

    KevR wrote: »
    I don't agree with item number 2.

    It's clutching at straws to say the least. If that is our solution to Galway's transport issues, we will never see an improvement. Just to point out also that making driving and parking more expensive simply discourages people on lower incomes. It makes life easier for those who can well afford it as they now have less competition. In turn, they will probably drive more frequently so you will see no reduction overall.




    That is the real reason for the failure of P&R. Why would anyone other than the most dedicated or principled opt for P&R when they can drive into the city centre and park cheaply or even for free most of the time?

    They can even park illegally for free, most of the time. Galway City Council's parking control operation, feeble as it is, focuses mainly on Motor Tax and expired Pay & Display tickets.


    Another example is the Park & Stride scheme, which 'encourages' parents to stay away from (or drive past) their children's school, using a sticker to get "free" parking in certain designated areas. Why would they bother? Nobody is paying for parking on the school run anyway, and even the ones parked illegally (on footpaths being a hugely popular choice, among motorists at least) get away scot free day after day.


    The only way to make Park & Ride work is to make it economically and practically more attractive than driving into the city centre. There is no political will to make that happen.


  • #26
    cgcsb
    Registered Users Posts: 9,262 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    KevR wrote: »
    I don't agree with item number 2.

    It's clutching at straws to say the least. If that is our solution to Galway's transport issues, we will never see an improvement. Just to point out also that making driving and parking more expensive simply discourages people on lower incomes. It makes life easier for those who can well afford it as they now have less competition. In turn, they will probably drive more frequently so you will see no reduction overall.

    Item number 1 is spot on. Make it so convenient and seamless to use so that it can compete with other modes of transport on its own merits.

    There was a thread previously on the Galway City board about the lack of buses over the Quincentenary Bridge. The absolute bottom line is that they have no reason whatsoever to not trial it. If they have resources (buses and subsidy) to do a Christmas P&R, they have the resources to try a West-East commuter route over the QB avoiding the City Centre.
    Making driving less convenient is a consequence of improving public transport, more road space for bus lanes and cycle lanes = less road space for cars. You can't have 1 without 2


  • #27
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    cgcsb wrote: »
    Making driving less convenient is a consequence of improving public transport, more road space for bus lanes and cycle lanes = less road space for cars. You can't have 1 without 2

    Sometimes you can, but more to the point maybe is that one of them (the driving less convenient part) is just a byproduct of the other (improving things for other modes of transport), it should not be a central goal in itself.


  • #28
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    The whole purpose of the bypass, aka "the only show in town", was (is?) to make driving more convenient. The claim was/is that a bypass would remove "cars that don't want to go anywhere near the city" and "commuter and personal traffic that does not want or need to go through the City, but has no choice", thereby improving driving condition for cars that do "want" or "need" to be in the city.


    An additional selling point, still being repeated, is that a bypass would free up space for public transport, walking and cycling. The idea was/is that motorists get their bypass first, then the other modes can be catered for.


    I believe this is a flawed and possibly even dishonest premise. It is also environmentally unjust, and likely to be counterproductive.


    A "bypass" will free up more road space within the city, by removing commuter traffic as well as "by-passable traffic", which will make driving around town more convenient, not less. In my opinion, it is simply not plausible to suggest that (a) people will suddenly switch from car commuting to walking, cycling and public transport once free-flow driving conditions are achieved, and (b) that the powers that be will suddenly feel compelled to at last cater properly for congestion-busting modes of travel, after the traffic congestion has been relieved by the construction of a bypass.


    What would be the motivation in each case, when chronic traffic congestion is not enough to encourage modal shift at present? Are we really expected to believe that people will feel less like driving when using a car will be a lot less hassle in a supposedly congestion-free post-bypass situation? Pull the other one, I say.


    In any case, if "commuter and personal traffic that does not want or need to go through the City" is removed, where are the commuters going to come from who will provide the customer base for the expansion of bus services, for example?


  • #29
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    monument wrote: »
    Sometimes you can, but more to the point maybe is that one of them (the driving less convenient part) is just a byproduct of the other (improving things for other modes of transport), it should not be a central goal in itself.




    Are you opposed to road pricing/congestion charging?


    Or is it more about the focus, and presentation, of transport projects?


  • #30
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,656 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Bus shelters are erected by Adshel under contract to Bus Eireann.

    Get in touch with Bus Eireann and see what they can do.


    Not in Galway they're not.

    The City Council has signed up a different company to provide 'em here. Ref: http://search.galwaycity.ie/GeneralNews/MainBody,5877,en.html

    There have been a couple of waves of installation, but there are still many many stops with no shelter at all.


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  • #31
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,656 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    antoobrien wrote: »
    P&R has been trialled in Galway for general commuting and failed spectacularly.

    The only realistic P&R is the one run up to christmas - to get shoppers in that won't come to Galway otherwise.

    Ahh, c'mon antoobrien, you know full well that the airport P&R was poorly thought out: not frequent enough buses, didn't call to industrial estates, badly publicised, and running from a badly chosen site which just happened to be conveniently unused.

    Arguably, you could say that the Chamber of Commerce supported a scheme that was doomed to fail, just so they could say "we tried, it doesn't work".

    The only good thing about it was that it provided a regular bus service for residents in the Carnmore Cross area, something they didn't have before or since.


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