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The Dail no longer has power

2»

Comments

  • #32
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    One of the problems with the Irish system is that the government - the Cabinet - is not accountable to the Dáil, which it is supposed to be. The non-Constitutional Whip system and our Constitutional requirement that Ministers should be elected constituency representatives means that the Cabinet is effectively just appointed by the party bosses of the coalition parties.

    That's what leads to ludicrous situations where incompetent Ministers who make major blunders but who are important within the party are retained - at best they're moved to another Ministry - while potentially competent people aren't even considered.

    Seriously, a system which makes Mary Coughlan a Minister in the first place is not fit for purpose. One that then retains her is clearly badly broken.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    The real shame being that Ms Coughlan represented only the most recent in a long and proud line of such functionaries.

    Taking Scofflaw's point regarding the Non-Constitutionality of the Whip system and qualifications for Ministerial appointments,is there a process whereby this can be realistically challenged ?

    Oddly enough,I believe that one of the most significant issues surrounding how Ireland is to emerge from the current malaise is the nature of it's Governing Principles...currently we don't appear to have any....:o


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



  • #33
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    The real shame being that Ms Coughlan represented only the most recent in a long and proud line of such functionaries.

    Taking Scofflaw's point regarding the Non-Constitutionality of the Whip system and qualifications for Ministerial appointments,is there a process whereby this can be realistically challenged ?

    Oddly enough,I believe that one of the most significant issues surrounding how Ireland is to emerge from the current malaise is the nature of it's Governing Principles...currently we don't appear to have any....:o

    The Germans - that currently despised and dratted people - have a clause in their constitution which says:
    (1) Members of the German Bundestag shall be elected in general, direct, free, equal, and secret elections. They shall be representatives of the whole people, not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience.

    On that basis the Whip system would be unconstitutional.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #34
    edanto
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    Wow - that would be a great clause to have in our constituion.


  • #35
    edanto
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    Slideshowbob wrote: »
    Constitution talk is a diversion from the orginal topic IMHO

    Keep it simple guys!!

    Slideshow, it is simple. The powers of the Dail are in the main derived from the constitution. Discussion of constitutional reform couldn't be more on topic with your OP.

    For example - the number of TDs. That comes directly from the constitution. That stuff is reasonably complex for a good reason - it needs to be precise and cover a lot of ground. Embrace it!


  • #36
    bette
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭bette


    edanto wrote: »
    Slideshow, it is simple. The powers of the Dail are in the main derived from the constitution. Discussion of constitutional reform couldn't be more on topic with your OP.

    For example - the number of TDs. That comes directly from the constitution. That stuff is reasonably complex for a good reason - it needs to be precise and cover a lot of ground. Embrace it!
    Why should we embrace this constitution? It is old and outmoded. Perhaps you might get some inspiration from post #33, last paragraph!

    It well nigh time to look at the issues of:
    • The Whip system
    • The number of TDs
    • The number of senators
    • The Presidency
    • Salaries of elected reps
    • Perks, expenses and allowances
    • Appointments

    As matters stand the Oireachtas is a great big gravy train and it seems that once elected, a politician loses his/her soul to the money god! Promises are made at election time which are never honoured and that is flagrant with the current lot of inept gravy train passengers!


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  • #37
    edanto
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    I meant 'embrace the complexity' of constitutional politics and law. I didn't mean that the consitution is perfect as is. You're taking me up wrong.

    It seems like we agree on the need for change, and even on what to change. The hard bit is how to convince the guys in the comfy TD seats to make those changes, especially the lot that are in power now.


  • #38
    bette
    Registered Users Posts: 496 ✭✭bette


    edanto wrote: »
    I meant 'embrace the complexity' of constitutional politics and law. I didn't mean that the consitution is perfect as is. You're taking me up wrong.

    It seems like we agree on the need for change, and even on what to change. The hard bit is how to convince the guys in the comfy TD seats to make those changes, especially the lot that are in power now.


    Mea culpa! It's going to be difficult to make the present shower take heed.


  • #39
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    daithimacgroin wrote: »
    result - the executive are all powerful


    Surely following that logic, Ireland is basically a non-democratic banana republic controlled by a posse of self-interested individuals
    You think the Legislative branches in the USA and most other bicameral democracies are "all powerful"?

    I would argue we need a proper Executive branch and more separation of powers between the Executive, Judiciary and Legislative.


  • #40
    edanto
    Registered Users Posts: 2,809 ✭✭✭edanto


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    (1) Members of the German Bundestag shall be elected in general, direct, free, equal, and secret elections. They shall be representatives of the whole people, not bound by orders or instructions, and responsible only to their conscience.

    Scofflaw, do you know how that clause works in practise in Germany? Are party members bound by a quasi-whip, or are most votes in the parliament actually conscience based?


  • #41
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    edanto wrote: »
    Scofflaw, do you know how that clause works in practise in Germany? Are party members bound by a quasi-whip, or are most votes in the parliament actually conscience based?

    They certainly seem to take it seriously enough to repeat it at every opportunity:
    The delegates are representatives of the whole people, they are not bound at orders or instructions and only responsible to their conscience (Article 38 I S 2 GG) (independent or free mandate).

    A free mandate is extracted from each access. A delegate cannot be forced and/or recalled therefore to a resignation of his mandate. Also he cannot be forced to a certain behavior (whip). A voluntary determination to a certain however behaviour is allowed (party discipline).

    While they do have 'party whips', their function is more that of the official functions of the party whips in our system - arranging speaking time, making inter-party arrangements, etc.

    Without a full analysis of the recorded voting patterns of German representatives, I can't be sure, but as far as I can see from the literature, the conscience rule is meaningfully observed.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • #42
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    We need a revolution.

    We need a new justice system, constitution, education overhaul, banking overhaul, a reassessment of our natural resource contracts, internment laws, and a new health and social welfare system.

    As is it our country and our children have no future, unless this government cuts waste immediately.


  • #43
    MadsL
    Registered Users Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    We need a revolution.

    Yes, a revolution to undertake to change the rotten corruption at the heart of Irish politics.

    However unfortunately that will involve changing the rotten corruption at the heart of Irish society. It will mean stopping the nixers, the being let off because you played GAA in the Garda's hometown, the turning a blind eye, the 'fair play to ya', the getting of 'the planning' by glad-handing the Councillor. It will mean the end of cash-in-hand, padding bills, fiddling expenses. It will mean the end of false insurance claims, quiet words in ears and no more "I knew your father".

    We could have a just, fair and largely law-abiding society in Ireland, but I'm not sure Ireland has grown up enough to 'get' how to get there.


  • #44
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,547 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    the culture of deference wrote: »
    We need a revolution.

    We need a new justice system, constitution, education overhaul, banking overhaul, a reassessment of our natural resource contracts, internment laws, and a new health and social welfare system.

    As is it our country and our children have no future, unless this government cuts waste immediately.
    With respect, thats not in any way practical. It's been said many times but courteously, rewriting all of the code with which a country functions is not an overnight process, it is not inexpensive and it does not generate a quick recovery. Look at any country from the Arab Spring. You think any of them have had an easy time of it?

    At most you can hope to look at one section of the system at a time and aim to revise it, like healthcare law or the taxation system. But "revolutions" are in no way practical, if one actually were to sit down and cognitively predict the consequences over even a window of just 5 years. Healthcare alone has been in the process of reform in the US for about 3 years now. And will not be 'reformed' for years to come. And when I say reformed, I mean settled law, im not even talking about in a condition that will satisfy everyone.


  • #45
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Overheal wrote: »
    With respect, thats not in any way practical. It's been said many times but courteously, rewriting all of the code with which a country functions is not an overnight process, it is not inexpensive and it does not generate a quick recovery. Look at any country from the Arab Spring. You think any of them have had an easy time of it?

    At most you can hope to look at one section of the system at a time and aim to revise it, like healthcare law or the taxation system. But "revolutions" are in no way practical, if one actually were to sit down and cognitively predict the consequences over even a window of just 5 years. Healthcare alone has been in the process of reform in the US for about 3 years now. And will not be 'reformed' for years to come. And when I say reformed, I mean settled law, im not even talking about in a condition that will satisfy everyone.

    And you never can satisfy everyone, which is the danger of politicians like Bertie and Blair trying to please everybody, you're promising them an impossibility. Though that is probably something shared by all political philosophies, left, right or centre!

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #46
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    Most people don't actually want revolution either. Sure, most don't want reform. They may say it, but when it comes down to it Ireland has a serious problem.

    Take the broad "reform of the justice system" bit for example. This gets mentioned a lot, but what needs to be fixed?

    More space in prisons or better conditions for prisoners is a big one IMO. But the problem is that we can't agree on where to build a new prison, what type is best (I.e. American supermax style, etc) how much to spend, what facilities it has... The list goes on. What do we do with the prisoners? I was speaking about this last night and as it stands we do nothing for male prisoners but make them better (or worse) criminals and thugs. What is meant to deter crime does the opposite.

    Is the problem the courts? More judges? Harsher sentence? We can't even agree on that. People would be complaining about how much we spend on judges and telling us that it's all the legal professions fault bla bla bla.

    Oh, just blame solicitors and barristers! The amount individual barristers and solicitors get from doing state legal aid work is shockingly low. Sure, there are the exceptions who somehow make hundreds of thousands (and I mean somehow, I have no fecking clue- do tell!) but they're few and far between.
    Then there is the odd notion that the state should regulate the actual private fees charged for legal services which is frankly mental!

    But we do nothing. We won't spend the money or come to an agreement. We just sit and moan and moan and moan and nothing changes. But sure, it keeps good ol' Joe Duffy in a high paying job employed by the semi-state radio that we love to moan about.


  • #47
    the culture of deference
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭the culture of deference


    Overheal wrote: »
    With respect, thats not in any way practical. It's been said many times but courteously, rewriting all of the code with which a country functions is not an overnight process, it is not inexpensive and it does not generate a quick recovery. Look at any country from the Arab Spring. You think any of them have had an easy time of it?

    At most you can hope to look at one section of the system at a time and aim to revise it, like healthcare law or the taxation system. But "revolutions" are in no way practical, if one actually were to sit down and cognitively predict the consequences over even a window of just 5 years. Healthcare alone has been in the process of reform in the US for about 3 years now. And will not be 'reformed' for years to come. And when I say reformed, I mean settled law, im not even talking about in a condition that will satisfy everyone.

    We are in year 4 of a recession and nothing has changed. Virtually all the people who made this mess are still in their positions.
    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    Most people don't actually want revolution either. Sure, most don't want reform. They may say it, but when it comes down to it Ireland has a serious problem.

    Take the broad "reform of the justice system" bit for example. This gets mentioned a lot, but what needs to be fixed?

    More space in prisons or better conditions for prisoners is a big one IMO. But the problem is that we can't agree on where to build a new prison, what type is best (I.e. American supermax style, etc) how much to spend, what facilities it has... The list goes on. What do we do with the prisoners? I was speaking about this last night and as it stands we do nothing for male prisoners but make them better (or worse) criminals and thugs. What is meant to deter crime does the opposite.

    Is the problem the courts? More judges? Harsher sentence? We can't even agree on that. People would be complaining about how much we spend on judges and telling us that it's all the legal professions fault bla bla bla.

    Oh, just blame solicitors and barristers! The amount individual barristers and solicitors get from doing state legal aid work is shockingly low. Sure, there are the exceptions who somehow make hundreds of thousands (and I mean somehow, I have no fecking clue- do tell!) but they're few and far between.
    Then there is the odd notion that the state should regulate the actual private fees charged for legal services which is frankly mental!

    But we do nothing. We won't spend the money or come to an agreement. We just sit and moan and moan and moan and nothing changes. But sure, it keeps good ol' Joe Duffy in a high paying job employed by the semi-state radio that we love to moan about.

    It costs 100 grand a year to keep a prisoner, and 250 grand a year to keep a minor. That money could be spent more productively by actively targeting the families of children who will offend in the future.


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